Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Feb 6, 2004 13:30:44 GMT -5
Beccaelizabeth, a thoughtful and detailed post. You should sign up for a guest review. Two eps are still unclaimed. Any interest? I'd luv to read that Becc. Say yes. It seemed to me that the removal of the crystal, that shut down the ascending "cage," also diminished Lindsey's powers immediately, so I assumed therefore that the insertion of the crystal enabled those powers. I think too much emphasis is being placed on that crystal. It was merely a key to open the fail/sale. Remeber, Lindsay cut it off of the guard's necklace. I think the fail/safe had its own inherent thingies. Watch it again. Lindsey was able to clobber Angel, hand to hand, before the sword fight got started, whereas after the crystal was removed, Angel wiped the *floor* (wasn't the floor, it was the top of the containment thingie, but still....) with him. So it seemed the crystal was causative to me, even though it made no particular sense for it to be so. After all, what do superpowers have to do with releasing a targeted beastie that presumably would pass anybody else by unless they got in its way? Lindsey said he had changed, which he had. And he wasn't getting clobbered, he was holding his own for a while. Wow, that backflip on to the platform to where he was hold the sword behind him was pretty. Remember, he was there to open the fail/safe monster and not expecting "Angel and his date". I believe a lot of his power was related to his "sexy runes" (thanks Rob), and the mojo involved in it. For example, while he set Spike up, the "victim visions" involved real victims and incidents, even though he set up Angel with the parasite. This is what sucked Spike in, not his "brain trust" issues, as Angel said.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 13:37:26 GMT -5
I'd luv to read that Becc. Say yes. I think too much emphasis is being placed on that crystal. It was merely a key to open the fail/sale. Remeber, Lindsay cut it off of the guard's necklace. I think the fail/safe had its own inherent thingies. Watch it again. Lindsey said he had changed, which he had. And he wasn't getting clobbered, he was holding his own for a while. Wow, that backflip on to the platform to where he was hold the sword behind him was pretty. Remember, he was there to open the fail/safe monster and not expecting "Angel and his date". I believe a lot of his power was related to his "sexy runes" (thanks Rob), and the mojo involved in it. For example, while he set Spike up, the "victim visions" involved real victims and incidents, even though he set up Angel with the parasite. This is what sucked Spike in, not his "brain trust" issues, as Angel said. If it's not the crystal, Pet, I'm at a loss to understand why Lindsey's powers greatly exceed Angel's before the sword fight commences, equal them during the sword fight, and appear no more than human during the fistfight that ends things. It's only after that that the runes are removed--after Lindsey has already lost. So the removal of the runes can't be what strips away his superpowers, it would seem. I agree, this is not a huge point, and there may be no answer except fanwank. But it seemed an anomaly and I wanted to find an explanation for it if I could.
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Feb 6, 2004 13:58:29 GMT -5
I agree, this is not a huge point, and there may be no answer except fanwank. But it seemed an anomaly and I wanted to find an explanation for it if I could. Again, I believe a lot of the fight was to show off the Matrix EFX, which were good. The key is that Lindsey said he had changed (during the intervening period between when he left and now) and then blindsided Angel. He wasn't referring to the crystal he got from the guard's neck. Angel is and always has been the better fighter, with the "Powers that whatsit" behind him, plus with Wes pushing the MoJo. I though L got one of the 2 swords that Angel had away from him too easily, but L was just a good fighter too. I guess we could look at the significance of the 2 swords and see who got which one, but it was hard to tell, so it's reaching, I think. Anyway, yep, fanwanking, unless we accept Angel's superior fighting ability and support.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Feb 6, 2004 14:08:18 GMT -5
If it's not the crystal, Pet, I'm at a loss to understand why Lindsey's powers greatly exceed Angel's before the sword fight commences, equal them during the sword fight, and appear no more than human during the fistfight that ends things. It's only after that that the runes are removed--after Lindsey has already lost. So the removal of the runes can't be what strips away his superpowers, it would seem. I agree, this is not a huge point, and there may be no answer except fanwank. But it seemed an anomaly and I wanted to find an explanation for it if I could. It's definately my "read" of that set of scenes, too, Nan; I'm wondering if part of the action of the crystal comes back to Eve's statement that the thing in that room is specifically designed to defeat Angel. Maybe part of what the crystal activates is a power boost for any Angel opponent, which means that Lindsey was lucky that Cordelia and Spike were not in the fight? After a second watching of this episode, I've marked it down a bit because of items like this; I think it may have been a grave mistake to let Fury direct his own script, because there are gaps in the logic of the writing which could have been patched over by different directorial choices. The Lindsey power boost is one of these, as is the whole matter of Cordy's bodily identity and the Spike taste-test. On the other hand, any time I can rank on David Fury (talk about narcissists) I will take advantage of the opportunity. Julia, who sees Spike beating up on the game console as just another chocolate box incident
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 6, 2004 14:12:31 GMT -5
Matt, since I have no clue with a butterfly knife is, it's a switchblade. Because I say so. so say I. for the same reason. OR...a light saber.
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Post by spikeNdru on Feb 6, 2004 14:31:46 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. In the review you said:
"Since Lindsey’s use of Doyle’s name is part of what unravels Lindsey’s secret scheme, why did he use it in the first place? It meant nothing to Spike. It had seemed that Lindsey intended the imposture to be unmasked by those who’d known Doyle and Doyle’s relationship to Angel. That now seems not to be the case: Lindsey did NOT want his attempts at manipulating Spike to be known. So again, why choose a name that was a liability the first time Spike chanced to mention it to Angel, as he inevitably would?"
I see this as *covering his bases*. Lindsey may not have wanted his manipulation attempts to be known, BUT...if Spike did mention that he was ostensibly being guided by a representative of TPTB named, oh, say "Sean" it wuld mean nothing to Angel. In Lindsey's twisted little mind, he may have thought Spike mentioning he was being guided by "Doyle" would cause Angel to lose faith in himself (as was already happening due to the loss of the Cup of Perpetual Torment, Spike being out on the streets "helping the helpless" while Angel was "CEO of Hell, Inc.") By believing that the very guide the PTB sent to get Angel on track in the first place was now "championing" Spike, Angel would see this as just another portent that he ISN'T "The One".
After the "Soul Purpose" induced dreams, this would have been a logical progression, if Cordelia had not come back into the mix...which Lindsey could not have forseen.
In any event, that was my take on his calling himself "Doyle".
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Feb 6, 2004 14:51:34 GMT -5
I think it may have been a grave mistake to let Fury direct his own script, because there are gaps in the logic of the writing which could have been patched over by different directorial choices. The Lindsey power boost is one of these, as is the whole matter of Cordy's bodily identity and the Spike taste-test. Julia, who sees Spike beating up on the game console as just another chocolate box incident Yes, and Fury's writing, let alone directing, seems to usually leave these type holes in the story/character arcs. Grudge, much? And yes again, chocolate box revisited. Thanks for that flashback. Heee!
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Post by Karen on Feb 6, 2004 15:17:00 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. In the review you said: "Since Lindsey’s use of Doyle’s name is part of what unravels Lindsey’s secret scheme, why did he use it in the first place? It meant nothing to Spike. It had seemed that Lindsey intended the imposture to be unmasked by those who’d known Doyle and Doyle’s relationship to Angel. That now seems not to be the case: Lindsey did NOT want his attempts at manipulating Spike to be known. So again, why choose a name that was a liability the first time Spike chanced to mention it to Angel, as he inevitably would?" I see this as *covering his bases*. Lindsey may not have wanted his manipulation attempts to be known, BUT...if Spike did mention that he was ostensibly being guided by a representative of TPTB named, oh, say "Sean" it wuld mean nothing to Angel. In Lindsey's twisted little mind, he may have thought Spike mentioning he was being guided by "Doyle" would cause Angel to lose faith in himself (as was already happening due to the loss of the Cup of Perpetual Torment, Spike being out on the streets "helping the helpless" while Angel was "CEO of Hell, Inc.") By believing that the very guide the PTB sent to get Angel on track in the first place was now "championing" Spike, Angel would see this as just another portent that he ISN'T "The One". After the "Soul Purpose" induced dreams, this would have been a logical progression, if Cordelia had not come back into the mix...which Lindsey could not have forseen. In any event, that was my take on his calling himself "Doyle". I think Lindsey pretty much "went with the flow" as far as his "plan" was concerned. If one thing didn't work, he soon had Plan B in place. Eve: We've got a big problem. Cordelia Chase is alive.
Lindsey: Well, this calls for a change in the course of action.I think he did the same thing when Spike was recorporealized. Changed the game. Now there's no one else playing the game that we know of. I'm going to miss Lindsey.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 15:20:08 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. In the review you said: "Since Lindsey’s use of Doyle’s name is part of what unravels Lindsey’s secret scheme, why did he use it in the first place? It meant nothing to Spike. It had seemed that Lindsey intended the imposture to be unmasked by those who’d known Doyle and Doyle’s relationship to Angel. That now seems not to be the case: Lindsey did NOT want his attempts at manipulating Spike to be known. So again, why choose a name that was a liability the first time Spike chanced to mention it to Angel, as he inevitably would?" I see this as *covering his bases*. Lindsey may not have wanted his manipulation attempts to be known, BUT...if Spike did mention that he was ostensibly being guided by a representative of TPTB named, oh, say "Sean" it wuld mean nothing to Angel. In Lindsey's twisted little mind, he may have thought Spike mentioning he was being guided by "Doyle" would cause Angel to lose faith in himself (as was already happening due to the loss of the Cup of Perpetual Torment, Spike being out on the streets "helping the helpless" while Angel was "CEO of Hell, Inc.") By believing that the very guide the PTB sent to get Angel on track in the first place was now "championing" Spike, Angel would see this as just another portent that he ISN'T "The One". After the "Soul Purpose" induced dreams, this would have been a logical progression, if Cordelia had not come back into the mix...which Lindsey could not have forseen. In any event, that was my take on his calling himself "Doyle". Hi, SpikeNDru--I visited the Farscape board you also post on (assuming you use the same name) the other day. Sensible folk there, it seemed to me! Your take on "Doyle" could have been worked into the script...but it wasn't. As things now stand, if Spike had mentioned Doyle, Angel would have protested that Doyle was dead and immediately wanted to see the guy. And then the cat would have been out of the bag unless Lindsey was very, very elusive...which would have harmed his gig with Spike. So I don't see that working out, though it could have been MADE to work out with supporting scripting. Afterthought: that's assuming Angel wouldn't have *known* it wasn't Doyle (as a ghost or whatever) just from the description of Spike's contact. #nosmileys#nosmileys
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 15:20:50 GMT -5
Yes, and Fury's writing, let alone directing, seems to usually leave these type holes in the story/character arcs. Grudge, much? And yes again, chocolate box revisited. Thanks for that flashback. Heee! No Fury fan here. That makes three of us (so far). And yup, that's a definite chocolate box moment. Even a soul and immolation don't change some things....
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Post by Cal on Feb 6, 2004 17:42:13 GMT -5
Great review, Nan. I haven't got much to add - most things have been covered already. Sad to see Cordy go - I didn't realise how much I liked her until she was gone. Angel's face at the end when he knows that Cordy is dead - kills me every time! Again, well done, Nan. Looking forward to next week's! Cal
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Post by Sammie on Feb 6, 2004 18:38:03 GMT -5
Back again to add my petite observations...
I liked your review, Nan. This episode was all over the place and I really think you pulled out the important points well, especially regarding the Wake-up Call.
I think I come down on the side of We haven't seen the last of Eve. I'm going to miss Lindsey/Doyle. I'd even started dubbing him "Doiley" in my head.
As for David Fury's take on things--I really like all the comic banter he stuffs in, but then the zingers fly by so fast I don't remember most of them and they only gain impact on repeat viewings. He also tends to inject some teenboy silliness, for better or worse. Spike diddling on Nintendo, Lindsey's thunder-thunder-thunder-cats sword enlargement.
The scene that stuck out for me, though, was the long circular pan in the office with the entire cast. From right to left, it went: Eve+Gunn, Spike, Lorne+Wes+Fred, Angel, Cordelia. For me that was the test pattern for the shades of gray in the room, at least from DF's POV. Harmony walked in at the last minute and headed straight for Eve.
All in all, I thought it was a poignant send-off for Cordy and a nice nod to Doyle, he we hardly knew.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Feb 6, 2004 19:43:07 GMT -5
Back again to add my petite observations... I liked your review, Nan. This episode was all over the place and I really think you pulled out the important points well, especially regarding the Wake-up Call. I think I come down on the side of We haven't seen the last of Eve. I'm going to miss Lindsey/Doyle. I'd even started dubbing him "Doiley" in my head. As for David Fury's take on things--I really like all the comic banter he stuffs in, but then the zingers fly by so fast I don't remember most of them and they only gain impact on repeat viewings. He also tends to inject some teenboy silliness, for better or worse. Spike diddling on Nintendo, Lindsey's thunder-thunder-thunder-cats sword enlargement. The scene that stuck out for me, though, was the long circular pan in the office with the entire cast. From right to left, it went: Eve+Gunn, Spike, Lorne+Wes+Fred, Angel, Cordelia. For me that was the test pattern for the shades of gray in the room, at least from DF's POV. Harmony walked in at the last minute and headed straight for Eve. All in all, I thought it was a poignant send-off for Cordy and a nice nod to Doyle, he we hardly knew. I'm glad you enjoyed the review, Sammie. Also glad you dropped in on us.
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Post by Karen on Feb 6, 2004 20:01:55 GMT -5
Back again to add my petite observations... I liked your review, Nan. This episode was all over the place and I really think you pulled out the important points well, especially regarding the Wake-up Call. I think I come down on the side of We haven't seen the last of Eve. I'm going to miss Lindsey/Doyle. I'd even started dubbing him "Doiley" in my head. As for David Fury's take on things--I really like all the comic banter he stuffs in, but then the zingers fly by so fast I don't remember most of them and they only gain impact on repeat viewings. He also tends to inject some teenboy silliness, for better or worse. Spike diddling on Nintendo, Lindsey's thunder-thunder-thunder-cats sword enlargement. The scene that stuck out for me, though, was the long circular pan in the office with the entire cast. From right to left, it went: Eve+Gunn, Spike, Lorne+Wes+Fred, Angel, Cordelia. For me that was the test pattern for the shades of gray in the room, at least from DF's POV. Harmony walked in at the last minute and headed straight for Eve. All in all, I thought it was a poignant send-off for Cordy and a nice nod to Doyle, he we hardly knew. I like your "test pattern for shades of gray" observation, Sammie. Interesting observation. I think Eve will be back, too. And I'm holding out a little hope that we haven't seen the last of Lindsey. Post often! And welcome to the SSS - check out the fun and come visit on the main board where most of the action is.
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Post by makd on Feb 7, 2004 1:49:22 GMT -5
Nice review, Nan. I liked the format you chose, and echo Patti and Karen on especially liking the "so has Angel" observation. I too believe that Lindsey is gone, but Eve is not. That is based on nothing more than "the feeling" I got from the episode, but we'll see. For all the high-powered fighting, I liked this episode for its romance. If THAT Cordy could have stuck around, with THAT Angel, I could have gone for such a C/A romance - very much so. You could feel the love, and it gave Angel so much, and it wouldn't have wallowed in the angst . . . Cordy would not have let it. It was so sad to see Cordy go though. Not just because of the love story we're not going to get. But because it was Cordy. Cordy who told Buffy to spank her inner moppet, Cordy who was devastated, along with Oz, to find Xander and Willow kissing - our Cordy. And when he said he needed her . . . you just knew it was true. And I have a feeling he will need her - what she's left behind (the love and the confidence and clarity that love put him in touch with) - very badly as he makes his way through what's ahead. For Angel - well, this ep wasn't about a sudden big and permanent change coming over Angel . . . it was about giving him a solid source for the strength he'll need, to face the challenges ahead and make the changes he needs to make. I don't think Angel has hit rock bottom yet, but I think he will, and when he gets there, this day with Cordy will play a part in helping him find his way out. ITA. Cordy and Angel as grown-up lovers - could never see it, till now. And, boy oh boy, is she gonna be a harder act to follow than Buffy. No little schoolgirl, no petty jealousies (Faith and Buffy, anyone?). What she and Buffy shared, aside from life on the Hellmouth is that neither sent mixed messages about priorities of mission. Both are all about the mission - but Cordy seemed able to love more generously and openly and fearlessly (course, different experiences, too). Cordy was indeed one beautiful on the inside, beautiful on the outside, funny and smart kick ass and cut with the katana, babe. Loved it 3! Also ---- wish we'd had the scene where Angel told the Team that Cordy had died. Maybe we will see pieces of that in next week's episode (though I doubt it; the ending was good as it was.) I thought this was a terrific episode from The Fury. He is just the best, IMO, at showing the general immaturity and evilness of Angelus and Spike. Good rendition, too, on Spike's evolutionary status. Anyway, Nan - another great review!! Thank you so much for the time and energy you put into each review. It means so much.
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