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Post by Kerrie on Apr 13, 2004 23:41:50 GMT -5
I don't understand your last sentence - I definitely did not mean to imply anything like that. I used the Harmony example, and the "using Buffy as a weapon" example as something that was NOT all right, not something that was OK because of corporeality or rivalry. In saying that I thought Spike's behavior toward Harmony was related to his sudden corporealization, and in saying that both Angel and Spike used Buffy as a weapon because of their rivalry, I was stating my theories as to why they behaved as they did. I wasn't saying (and didn't say) that their behavior was OK. I definitely find it all forgiveable (which is different than giving it approval), because subsequent behavior shows improvement. And also because all the characters are so imperfect, that not forgiving occasional heat-of-the-moment misbehavior is going to leave me with no one to like. Sorry Spring. My last sentence was not directed at you. I am just bitter that they had Angel and Spike behaving so badly with the implication that they had just made judgement errors in the heat of the moment. I hope that the rest of season makes me see that this was rock-bottom for them. At the moment I just see that the show is not BtVS. There is no feminist slant. Men are depicted as being pretty rotten when they are without the civilising effect of women. The thought that this is what JW is trying to depict sickens me. I do not believe it of most men, but maybe I am just naive.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 14, 2004 7:47:59 GMT -5
Sorry Spring. My last sentence was not directed at you. I am just bitter that they had Angel and Spike behaving so badly with the implication that they had just made judgement errors in the heat of the moment. I hope that the rest of season makes me see that this was rock-bottom for them. At the moment I just see that the show is not BtVS. There is no feminist slant. Men are depicted as being pretty rotten when they are without the civilising effect of women. The thought that this is what JW is trying to depict sickens me. I do not believe it of most men, but maybe I am just naive. I can only guess at this stuff, but I don't think that is JW's message in the ep.: Men are rotten without the civilizing influence of women. Human beings (men and women) do sometimes "act out" when under the stress of high emotions, and that's what we saw here. The characters did make judgement errors in the heat of the moment. People do that - its always around their fears and insecurities and vulnerabilities and needs. Spike behaves badly, being thoughtless about Harmony because he really really wanted sex. Harmony makes a stupid choice - because she really, really wanted Spike. Angel and Spike both "use Buffy"- because they really really want to weaken and hurt each other (note how they each go right after the other's Achilles Heel in regard to Buffy). People learn through making mistakes, and we do see these characters do that. It just . . . it doesn't bother me that we see them depicted as imperfect, and sometimes given to some nasty behavior because of their emotions and insecurities. Or that we are meant to struggle with accepting those imperfections (or not).
This seems like a separate issue, but definitely, this show is not BtVS, and I miss that "girl power" aspect of the show, but well . . . that's just not what this show is about.
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Post by LadyDi on Apr 14, 2004 20:15:23 GMT -5
We all act badly at times, and I appreciate the imperfections of the characters (some of them, anyway) because it makes them seem more real. As for Spike and Harmony, I think Spike got his wake-up call. She vamped out, bit him, and read him the riot act! Good for her. As for the other, well, Angel started it. For someone who supposedly still loves Buffy, Angel doesn't seem to have much respect for her. Plus, he seems to be operating under the (mistaken) impression that Buffy and Spike were lovers apres-soul. To his credit, Spike does not correct this impression. Spike could've said something even more crude (f*cked her legless, for instance) about his encounters w/Buffy. I'm glad he didn't.
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