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Post by William the Bloody on May 18, 2004 14:16:50 GMT -5
Let the discussion begin!
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Post by Laura on May 18, 2004 16:52:37 GMT -5
Yes, Spring, Spike pretty!
I finally broke down and bought a DVD player (John is going to give me so much grief!) and seasons 1-5 of BtVS, so I'm just about where you are right now in terms of your analyses.
You always manage to pull so much out of these episodes -- all I got from the title was the allusion to Joyce's tumor and that there was a shadow over the Buffy/Riley relationship -- but I didn't think (at least, not then) that Spike himself was a shadow. But it's all there -- in a foreshadowed way, if you will (pun obviously intended).
I could go on, but I need to go. As always, brilliantly done Spring.
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Post by Kerrie on May 19, 2004 1:01:28 GMT -5
Great analysis, Spring!
I particularly enjoyed the use of Return of Investments to undersand loss and why it is hard to let go. I had never have thought of this.
As an aside I wonder how this relates to Spike being unable to let go of Buffy, pre-soul. Letting go when you haven't got what you wanted nor even felt like you were getting value for your investment is very difficult and damned near impossible unless you have some moral compass to guide you, because it just not make sense to let something go.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 19, 2004 7:18:12 GMT -5
Yes, Spring, Spike pretty!
I finally broke down and bought a DVD player (John is going to give me so much grief!) and seasons 1-5 of BtVS, so I'm just about where you are right now in terms of your analyses.
You always manage to pull so much out of these episodes -- all I got from the title was the allusion to Joyce's tumor and that there was a shadow over the Buffy/Riley relationship -- but I didn't think (at least, not then) that Spike himself was a shadow. But it's all there -- in a foreshadowed way, if you will (pun obviously intended).
I could go on, but I need to go. As always, brilliantly done Spring.
[/size][/quote] Yes, Laura - Spike pretty. I am glad you have taken note, and agree with, of one of the most important themes in this analysis - in fact, the thread that connects all my analyses together! And wait: Who is John? You mean our JohnG? Why would he give you grief over buying a DVD? Thanks for your nice words about this analysis. I am trying to pick up the pace on them, and it is helpful to get encouragement and feedback. Auguri!
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Post by SpringSummers on May 19, 2004 7:24:08 GMT -5
Great analysis, Spring! I particularly enjoyed the use of Return of Investments to undersand loss and why it is hard to let go. I had never have thought of this. As an aside I wonder how this relates to Spike being unable to let go of Buffy, pre-soul. Letting go when you haven't got what you wanted nor even felt like you were getting value for your investment is very difficult and damned near impossible unless you have some moral compass to guide you, because it just not make sense to let something go. As always, thanks for your feedback Kerrie, and devoted readership. It means a lot to me. Riley on the merry-go-round, 'cause he paid for the full hour - that's how it seemed to me, and got me thinking about Return On Investment. I don't know if, when I get to Season 6, I'll see Spike's decisions about Buffy in quite the same light, but . . . I think that kind of thinking almost always plays a part in people hooking up, staying together, and breaking up.
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Post by LadyDi on May 19, 2004 12:33:49 GMT -5
Another terrific installment, especially mention of Spike as The Doctor (As You Were). Strange that Spike is the only one really trying to help Buffy. Also, your link btwn the Snake Monster here and Spike in s6 (Dead Things). The Snake Monster wasn't really able to defend itself...or so it seemed. Spike could have, but didn't.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 19, 2004 13:26:12 GMT -5
Another terrific installment, especially mention of Spike as The Doctor ( As You Were). Strange that Spike is the only one really trying to help Buffy. Also, your link btwn the Snake Monster here and Spike in s6 ( Dead Things). The Snake Monster wasn't really able to defend itself...or so it seemed. Spike could have, but didn't. Thanks, Lady Di. I love hearing from you on the analyses.
THE DOCTOR: Yes. I thought that name for Spike - The Doctor - as spoken by Riley, was very deliberate as a reference to the parallels drawn in Season 5 between Riley's need for a heart doctor who was "like the one" who hurt him in the first place and Buffy's need for "a doctor" to have her heart healed ( Out of My Mind). And then parallels again between Joyce's experience with the tumor and the docs and hospitals, and Buffy's experience with Spike as a shadow and the suggestion that Spike is what she needs. (A doctor with "the bone in his head" that helps him understand others - I mean, that is weird phrasing by Ben, and I think it refers deliberately back to Spike saying Riley didn't have the bumpy forehead it took to be with Buffy). So - yes, good catch, I was deliberately referring to As You Were. It wasn't perfect, but I liked that ep. Yes, that's right. I am a big Spike fan, and I really liked that ep. And I liked that "The Doctor" appellation for Spike . Ultimately, he was The Doctor who healed Buffy's heart, and he was The Doctor who had the bone in his head that gave him the right sensitivity to Buffy's problems (and he was The Doctor with the good hands - let's not forget the good hands!).
SNAKE MONSTER: I thought the parallel was more about Buffy - I mean, Buffy is similarly motivated toward the Snake Monster as she is toward Spike - both in Intervention (at first) and in Dead Things. She wants to kill both parties because "they know" and they are sure to tell Glory. And she beats the crap out of both the Snake Monster and Spike, even though they aren't fighting back, because she is so blind with anger at herself and what she sees as her own shortcomings. The Snake Monster is actually going to tell Glory, and the Snake Monster is not voluntarily letting Buffy beat him up. So the Snake Monster and Spike are different in important ways - good point. But Buffy's motivations are very similar, because her actions are all about herself and how she is feeling inside, not about the object of her attack - for different reasons, neither poses a threat. The beating is useless, except as an outlet for Buffy. Also - that "Buffy gets a wild ride atop a great big snake" imagery was so subtle I'm not sure, but I think that part may have something to do with foreshadowing the B/S relationship as well.
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Post by LadyDi on May 19, 2004 14:04:08 GMT -5
The primary parallel btwn the Snake Monster and Spike is Buffy's response to both. Still, layer upon layer, yeah? The Snake Monster is fairly inconsequential. It was a tool of Glory and it leads Buffy and the gang back to Glorificus (sort of), so she can find Spike in Intervention. I wont say As You Were is one of my all time favorite eps, but I don't hate it. Spike is trying to help Buffy, and she realizes she's not being fair to him. Of course, she can't be responsible (even indirectly) for the deaths of innocent people. But it's a much needed wake-up call for her.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 20, 2004 13:25:46 GMT -5
Another terrific installment, especially mention of Spike as The Doctor ( As You Were). Strange that Spike is the only one really trying to help Buffy. Also, your link btwn the Snake Monster here and Spike in s6 ( Dead Things). The Snake Monster wasn't really able to defend itself...or so it seemed. Spike could have, but didn't. LadyDi - I was re-reading this comment above, and wanted to add: I don't see Spike as the only one really trying to help Buffy. At this point in the Season, he's not done much to help Buffy yet, and he's not the only one trying to help her. Everyone is trying to help her. BUT, when it comes to certain specific problems: Her broken, shut-down heart when it comes to romance, her need to face her dark side and let go of the idealized world of childhood - Spike is "the doctor" for those particular ills. It's not because others aren't there for Buffy, but because they don't have what's needed to address those particular areas. Spike ends up getting his soul because of his love for Buffy (the perfect anti-dote to heal what happened with Angel) and he ends up forcing her to admit to, and face and accept, her dark side. Unlike the others, he doesn't represent her intellect, or her heart, or her spirit (all important, of course). He's her shadow. All of Buffy's associates and friends play roles in her journey - healing Buffy's heart in relation to men/love, and helping her grow-up and integrate her dark side is Spike's role.
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Post by LadyDi on May 20, 2004 13:51:19 GMT -5
Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was referring specifically to the idea of financial help in As You Were. I know we've often decried the CoW for not paying Buffy, but really it's just a reflection of RL, where women do all kinds of unpaid but extremely important home/child care. Giles did give her that check (cheque?) in Flooded, but as she'd gotten him reinstated as her watcher w/back pay, it seemed only right. OTOH, Anya the investment wiz didn't seem to be much help, and Willow's college fund, scholarships and/or student loans would only go so far.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 20, 2004 14:27:16 GMT -5
Sorry, I should've been more clear. I was referring specifically to the idea of financial help in As You Were. I know we've often decried the CoW for not paying Buffy, but really it's just a reflection of RL, where women do all kinds of unpaid but extremely important home/child care. Giles did give her that check (cheque?) in Flooded, but as she'd gotten him reinstated as her watcher w/back pay, it seemed only right. OTOH, Anya the investment wiz didn't seem to be much help, and Willow's college fund, scholarships and/or student loans would only go so far. Oh! Yes, that was part of the deal in Season 6 - everyone occupied with their own deal, everyone still not quite willing to take on adult responsibilities, etc. Spike, Xander and Anya are the only ones who aren't actual drains on Buffy and her resources. Spike and Xander actually provide services - Xander is something of a fix-it man and chaffeur now and then; Spike is her confidant and lover and place to escape. Xander and Anya are preoccupied with their own troubles, and though they don't freeload off Buffy, they mostly have to take care of themselves (I can't fault them here on not contributing to the Summers household. They are young and looking to start their own household). Willow & Tara - that's some major freeloading. Willow gets way too messed up to be of any help; Tara leaves. Dawn: Just a kid. Also messed up. Giles: He tries to help but he realizes, basically, that he's going to get used to support Buffy and the others, instead of them learning to walk on their own two feet. So he leaves. I didn't fault him on that. It was tough for him, but I thought he made the right decision.
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Post by LadyDi on May 20, 2004 16:41:45 GMT -5
I don't really blame Giles for leaving either (except for his timing, maybe). In I Was Made to Love You, Anya says something to Tara about tripling her money thru online trading. I just think she could've used some of that financial acumen to help Buffy, maybe with a small loan to get her started. Of course, Anya was all caught up in the wedding that wasn't. And yes, everybody else is too wrapped up in their own stuff to help Buffy deal w/hers.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on May 21, 2004 11:37:02 GMT -5
I enjoy your analyses so much, Spring. This one is no different in that respect for me, though writing a new one must always be different for you.
The parallelisms you find within episodes are always most illuminating. The idea of Spike as Buffy's shadow is particularly Blakean. In that respect, I think the relationship is reciprocal: Spike reflects Buffy's needs, lacks, and blind spots; Buffy also reflects his. They are the dark and bright mirror with two faces, reflecting one another.
Thank you for this renewal of an invaluable resource, your analyses.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 21, 2004 12:04:18 GMT -5
I enjoy your analyses so much, Spring. This one is no different in that respect for me, though writing a new one must always be different for you. The parallelisms you find within episodes are always most illuminating. The idea of Spike as Buffy's shadow is particularly Blakean. In that respect, I think the relationship is reciprocal: Spike reflects Buffy's needs, lacks, and blind spots; Buffy also reflects his. They are the dark and bright mirror with two faces, reflecting one another. Thank you for this renewal of an invaluable resource, your analyses. Thanks, Nan. I agree with your thoughts here. Spike is really - he is always right in there, doing or saying what Buffy's . . .shadow . . . I mean Buffy's self-she-might-be-denying-at-the-moment would be doing or saying. From the very beginning, in School Hard they are set up that way - Spike is set up as Evil-version Buffy. And look at what happens after Angel loses his soul - Spike plots against Angel, openly expresses the jealousy, anger and rage that Buffy represses and won't face. It's very two halves of a whole. Their attraction and eventual explosive union, which leads to each becoming whole, is all about that. Look what Spike does in Lovers Walk, with his "love's bitch" speech - he says what is inside Buffy, but she can't say it or bring it to the surface herself. BUFFY: "I can fool my friends, but I can't fool myself. Or Spike, for some reason." Yeah. For some reason. Spike is always openly dealing with and acknowledging the feelings between them, when Buffy can't face them. And in this ep, Shadow, he's expressing Buffy's underlying feelings about Riley, and taking abuse from Riley that he (Riley) can't make himself aim at its true target (Buffy). He's always right there. Always doing what any self-respecting shadow should do. He's more than that of course - I don't mean to suggest he's not a full stand alone character (or that Buffy isn't). But nevertheless, Buffy is the main character, and when it comes to his role re Buffy, he's the expression of her darker side, the very incarnation of it.
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Post by Karen on May 22, 2004 8:35:31 GMT -5
Spring - great analysis! I also love reading the S'cubie discusson that follows.
I especially liked your image of the back porch scene between Spike and Buffy. I too felt that Buffy would have confided a little in Spike, given her emotional state at the time. She would instinctively know that Spike would know ("for some reason") how to react to bring her comfort.
About Spike taking Buffy's clothes. I guess he was taking them for his "Buffy-shrine". But later - Warren would use the "smell" of her clothes to make the Buffy-bot.
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