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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 29, 2004 5:24:22 GMT -5
Spring, excellent analysis of 'Shadow'! I am anxiously awaiting your next installment. Each one further enriches my appreciation for the show. I know these are a lot of work for you, but I personally would be devestated if you were unable to continue! Thanks so much, Fotada, for letting me know you are reading and enjoying and anxiously waiting for my next analysis. I'm a single mom with a fulltime job, so it is challenging sometimes, and it helps to get this encouragement. She says something about this in Something Blue - something to Willow about how she links love to pain and suffering. But by series end, I see her as having moved away from this. In different ways, she gives both Angel and Spike the kindly kiss-off. She's no longer telling herself that because she's The Slayer she can never be truly happy and she has a limited "expiration date." Or that she will never again love anyone as much as she loved Angel. As long as she believes these things, they are life-destroying, self-fulfilling prophecies. By empowering the other Slayers and by declaring her independence, she frees herself to fully accept and enjoy all the possibilities ahead, rather than fatalistically predetermining (and self-determining) that her life and loves can never be anything but a compromise between what she can have, and what she really wants. She's 22. Her life is in no way over. The best is yet to come, in all categories. If she lets it come. And that's the feeling I have at the end of Chosen - she is FINALLY going to let it. That's what I think the ending is all about; that's what I think Joss was going for, and I love him for it.
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Post by Nickim on Jul 29, 2004 7:22:34 GMT -5
Thanks so much, Fotada, for letting me know you are reading and enjoying and anxiously waiting for my next analysis. I'm a single mom with a fulltime job, so it is challenging sometimes, and it helps to get this encouragement. She says something about this in Something Blue - something to Willow about how she links love to pain and suffering. But by series end, I see her as having moved away from this. In different ways, she gives both Angel and Spike the kindly kiss-off. She's no longer telling herself that because she's The Slayer she can never be truly happy and she has a limited "expiration date." Or that she will never again love anyone as much as she loved Angel. As long as she believes these things, they are life-destroying, self-fulfilling prophecies. By empowering the other Slayers and by declaring her independence, she frees herself to fully accept and enjoy all the possibilities ahead, rather than fatalistically predetermining (and self-determining) that her life and loves can never be anything but a compromise between what she can have, and what she really wants. She's 22. Her life is in no way over. The best is yet to come, in all categories. If she lets it come. And that's the feeling I have at the end of Chosen - she is FINALLY going to let it. That's what I think the ending is all about; that's what I think Joss was going for, and I love him for it. I agree totally with your feelings about the end of Chosen, but I still think Buffy should have kissed Spike goodbye. Even just a brief Intervention kind of kiss would have shown how much Buffy appreciated Spike's sacrifice and that she had truly forgiven the AR.
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Post by Michelle on Jul 29, 2004 8:10:43 GMT -5
I agree totally with your feelings about the end of Chosen, but I still think Buffy should have kissed Spike goodbye. Even just a brief Intervention kind of kiss would have shown how much Buffy appreciated Spike's sacrifice and that she had truly forgiven the AR. I too agree with Spring's analysis of Buffy's emotional/mental state by the series finale. She had definitely moved past the need for angst in her life. Yay for Buffy! But, I didn't really have a problem with Buffy not kissing Spike. I loved the burning flame/hand hold thing, personally. Gets me every time I see it, and the little gasp from Buffy while she looks in Spike's eyes is heart-wrenching. But what *did* bother me was that she spent the previous night in the arms of Spike, told him how how much it meant to her, and still ended up kissing Angel when he arrived! If it had been a quick peck on the lips, a true "hello" kiss like she told Spike it was, then I wouldn't mind. But that was a pretty extended kiss, tongues or no. Just my little beef.
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Post by Nickim on Jul 29, 2004 9:11:39 GMT -5
I too agree with Spring's analysis of Buffy's emotional/mental state by the series finale. She had definitely moved past the need for angst in her life. Yay for Buffy! But, I didn't really have a problem with Buffy not kissing Spike. I loved the burning flame/hand hold thing, personally. Gets me every time I see it, and the little gasp from Buffy while she looks in Spike's eyes is heart-wrenching. But what *did* bother me was that she spent the previous night in the arms of Spike, told him how how much it meant to her, and still ended up kissing Angel when he arrived! If it had been a quick peck on the lips, a true "hello" kiss like she told Spike it was, then I wouldn't mind. But that was a pretty extended kiss, tongues or no. Just my little beef. ITA, especially since Angel was supposed to be in love with Cordelia.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 29, 2004 9:15:42 GMT -5
ITA, especially since Angel was supposed to be in love with Cordelia. Amen! Aside from the feeling that four years of character development had been flushed down the toilet, Angel wasn't acting like a man who'd just lost two of the most important people in his life (Cordy and Connor). Plus, then Buffy's gotta spell all this stuff out for him that Spike instinctively understands.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 30, 2004 22:42:16 GMT -5
Amen! Aside from the feeling that four years of character development had been flushed down the toilet, Angel wasn't acting like a man who'd just lost two of the most important people in his life (Cordy and Connor). Plus, then Buffy's gotta spell all this stuff out for him that Spike instinctively understands. I guess I felt the same way Buffy did: It was just a kiss hello. She was very happy to see her old flame and gave him a warm kiss hello and same for him. I'm sure after all both had been through, it was good to see someone who reminded them of a simpler time and a simpler love. I thought Spike got over it very quickly because he just plain believed her that it wasn't a big deal (as did I). That kiss just seemed so warm and innocent to me. And Spike was genuinely and quickly over it, I thought, especially after she gave him the amulet. I thought that business about "I don't know what I would have done if you'd gone up those stairs" was all about that. It was about Buffy chosing to stay in the basement and Spike realizing that. I didn't think the Angel-kiss had anything to do with what came afterward, in terms of Spike's reactions to Buffy saying she loved him, etc. And I didn't think it meant anything in terms of Connor & Cordy, except that Angel was allowing himself an innocent, feel good indulgence at a time when he very much needed one.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 1, 2004 23:53:50 GMT -5
I guess I felt the same way Buffy did: It was just a kiss hello. She was very happy to see her old flame and gave him a warm kiss hello and same for him. I'm sure after all both had been through, it was good to see someone who reminded them of a simpler time and a simpler love. I thought Spike got over it very quickly because he just plain believed her that it wasn't a big deal (as did I). That kiss just seemed so warm and innocent to me. And Spike was genuinely and quickly over it, I thought, especially after she gave him the amulet. I thought that business about "I don't know what I would have done if you'd gone up those stairs" was all about that. It was about Buffy chosing to stay in the basement and Spike realizing that. I didn't think the Angel-kiss had anything to do with what came afterward, in terms of Spike's reactions to Buffy saying she loved him, etc. And I didn't think it meant anything in terms of Connor & Cordy, except that Angel was allowing himself an innocent, feel good indulgence at a time when he very much needed one. I'd like to think it was just a "hello." They hadn't seen each other in almost two years, after all. Problem w/that is it just seemed to go on a little too long. Plus, I will never understand why it's ok for her to mack on the guy who killed her friends and tortured her watcher, but not the guy who tried but failed to hurt her. I can hardly even watch season 3 anymore (except for Lover's Walk) w/o feeling a little queasy. I can rationalize 'til I'm blue, but it just feels fundamentally wrong.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 2, 2004 6:01:49 GMT -5
I'd like to think it was just a "hello." They hadn't seen each other in almost two years, after all. Problem w/that is it just seemed to go on a little too long. Plus, I will never understand why it's ok for her to mack on the guy who killed her friends and tortured her watcher, but not the guy who tried but failed to hurt her. I can hardly even watch season 3 anymore (except for Lover's Walk) w/o feeling a little queasy. I can rationalize 'til I'm blue, but it just feels fundamentally wrong. Oh - I think "Buffy & Angel" are fundamentally wrong, and I think that, underneath the idealized layer, they are being presented that way. I think you feel queasy because you are meant to feel queasy and queasy is a very appropriate reaction. The answer to "why is it OK for her to mack on a guy who tortured her- etc?" is: It's not OK. And nobody EXCEPT BUFFY is saying that it is. Buffy has a HUGE blind spot when it comes to Angel. She's just starting to get past that, in Chosen. Buffy has feelings for Angel and when she sees him again after so long those feelings are momentarily aroused and she gives him a long, warm kiss. She's barely begun to understand that her longstanding conviction ( that she expresses with such notable vehmence in Crush "Angel was GOOD!") may not be 100% on the mark. But she's gotten far enough that for the first time ever, she talks about her relationship with Angel as if maybe if wasn't perfection, and she makes it clear that their chances are not good of ever getting together. That is a lot, for Buffy. I think Spike & Buffy are also fundamentally wrong, when you get to the bottom of it, for the same reason - how does 100+ years of murder and torment of others ever get past the queasy?
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Post by Kerrie on Aug 3, 2004 21:55:58 GMT -5
I think Spike & Buffy are also fundamentally wrong, when you get to the bottom of it, for the same reason - how does 100+ years of murder and torment of others ever get past the queasy? This is an interesting problem. At what point can anyone forgive and forget the evil that Spike or Angel have done in their pre-souled days? It is not a moot point if you are saying that Buffy shouldn't be able to "get past the queasy" and have a relationship with them. (This is quite aside from the issue that they could loose their souls again or be otherwise manipulated by their demonic side. In Australia there is no capital punishment. In some states in America there is capital punishment. I don't know whether capital punishment is retribution or because there is a belief that some deeds can't be forgiven or that criminals can't be reformed. Consequently, I am not sure why Buffy can't get over the fact that Spike and Angel used to be evil monsters. I know this is a difficult question. Certainly, my conscience is telling me that I have a sacred duty to forgive and forget, but I suspect that this would be extremely difficult to do. Certainly some crimes would be easier to forgive and forget than others, depending on the circumstances. However, at the end of the day I am pretty certain that I would feel guilty about it but I would still not knowingly let a reformed pedophile within my home (especially when I have children). Spike and Angel are reformed pedophiles, amongst other things, so the comparison is not that inflammatory. However, the question remains whether Buffy should even try to forgive and forget quite independently of whether she could.
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Post by Linda on Aug 4, 2004 3:47:59 GMT -5
<snipped for space> I think Spike & Buffy are also fundamentally wrong, when you get to the bottom of it, for the same reason - how does 100+ years of murder and torment of others ever get past the queasy? I was thinking that this issue was actually dealt with in the Season Seven episodes Conversations With Dead People, Sleeper, and Never Leave Me. In the basement scene in Sleeper, Buffy is faced with Spike's freshest crimes. I believe she makes the distinction that these crimes were committed without his soul's will or permission. I also believe, by extension, that the crimes he committed as an unchipped and unsouled vampire were put into the same category. I *don't* think it was an easy decision for her to toss aside that stake, despite Spike's physical recoil from the memory of his latest killings. And yes, I think she *was* queasy by that decision's implications. In Never Leave Me, Buffy makes it clear that she believes in him and his ability to be a better man, despite his past (which he so vividly evoked to get her to kill him.) I think the rest of the season is Buffy getting over her queasiness about Spike's past, to the point where she trusts him to get in touch with his inner demon in Get it Done. Demands it, in fact. Linda, umm, I could never get over any RL queasy of this magnitude, but I think BtVS did work it out in this special instance...
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 4, 2004 5:48:34 GMT -5
This is an interesting problem. At what point can anyone forgive and forget the evil that Spike or Angel have done in their pre-souled days? It is not a moot point if you are saying that Buffy shouldn't be able to "get past the queasy" and have a relationship with them. (This is quite aside from the issue that they could loose their souls again or be otherwise manipulated by their demonic side. In Australia there is no capital punishment. In some states in America there is capital punishment. I don't know whether capital punishment is retribution or because there is a belief that some deeds can't be forgiven or that criminals can't be reformed. Consequently, I am not sure why Buffy can't get over the fact that Spike and Angel used to be evil monsters. I know this is a difficult question. Certainly, my conscience is telling me that I have a sacred duty to forgive and forget, but I suspect that this would be extremely difficult to do. Certainly some crimes would be easier to forgive and forget than others, depending on the circumstances. However, at the end of the day I am pretty certain that I would feel guilty about it but I would still not knowingly let a reformed pedophile within my home (especially when I have children). Spike and Angel are reformed pedophiles, amongst other things, so the comparison is not that inflammatory. However, the question remains whether Buffy should even try to forgive and forget quite independently of whether she could. Reformed pedophiles? We do get a bit of a pedophile subtext for Angel in his relationship with teenage Buffy (I'm thinking in particular of that scene where he sits in that rundown car, staring at 15 yr old Buffy licking a lollipop). But other than this sort of sideways mention, I can't think of any other suggestion of pedophilia for either of them, text or subtext. But they are certainly reformed criminals, with the worst sort of crimes in their history. BUT, I think Buffy could, should, can, and does forgive Spike his past. And I think the implication is that she will forgive Angel too, once she fully realizes that Angel is responsible for his crimes, and requires that acknowledgement and forgiveness. (In the past, she hasn't so much forgiven Angel, as refused to believe he had any connection to his evil past.) But forgiving either one of them doesn't equal deciding "he's the man for me." Such a past, and the journey toward overcoming it, makes a person quite different from someone without such experiences. I don't think that, ultimately, either Angel or Spike is the man for Buffy, or Buffy is the woman for them. And I think we get very clear signals that Joss would never, ever go there. The relationship with Angel is very High-School and somewhat paternal. My feeling is that Joss would never hook grown-up Buffy back with someone with whom she had that sort of history. It's just so very contrary to the whole set up of girl-power, growth and independence for Buffy. I would be devastedly disappointed in Joss if he did such a thing. He'd ruin my hero, Buffy. Conversely, Spike's relationship with Buffy has a heavy element of the maternal for Spike. And going back there would be contrary in the same way for Spike and his growth. I would be horribly disappointed if he did such a thing. He'd ruin my hero, Spike. Mostly, my contention that Buffy will never end up with either guy is around that sort of thing - it goes totally, totally, totally against my concept of the Jossian, against my concept of what the show is about, at it's core: Our growth as people as we journey forward through our lives.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 4, 2004 5:59:05 GMT -5
I was thinking that this issue was actually dealt with in the Season Seven episodes Conversations With Dead People, Sleeper, and Never Leave Me. In the basement scene in Sleeper, Buffy is faced with Spike's freshest crimes. I believe she makes the distinction that these crimes were committed without his soul's will or permission. I also believe, by extension, that the crimes he committed as an unchipped and unsouled vampire were put into the same category. I *don't* think it was an easy decision for her to toss aside that stake, despite Spike's physical recoil from the memory of his latest killings. And yes, I think she *was* queasy by that decision's implications. In Never Leave Me, Buffy makes it clear that she believes in him and his ability to be a better man, despite his past (which he so vividly evoked to get her to kill him.) I think the rest of the season is Buffy getting over her queasiness about Spike's past, to the point where she trusts him to get in touch with his inner demon in Get it Done. Demands it, in fact. Linda, umm, I could never get over any RL queasy of this magnitude, but I think BtVS did work it out in this special instance... Well said, and I agree. Most of Season 7 is about Buffy successfully getting past the queasy. Not just about Spike's past, but about her own history in her relationship with him. And we hear it most strongly in Buffy's contention in Chosen, to Angel of all people, that Spike is "in her heart." Huge, astounding deal - Buffy's kept that romantic heart shut tight as a drum ever since Angel left. But I don't think that means that Spike's history would no longer come into play when it came to Buffy & Spike trying to get together again and make a go of it as a long-term committed romantic couple. It would come into play. Spike's history, Buffy's history, the history of their relationship, what they both need and want for the future - it would all come into play. And it doesn't add up to "YES" for me. I'll never figure out exactly how to put this into words. Well, maybe I will by the time I get around to analyzing Chosen (which, if I can't pick up the pace, will be the year 3000). But the Buffy I see at the end of Chosen isn't going to be hooking up with either Angel or Spike, ever. And the Spike I see at the end of AtS's finale isn't heading toward Buffy.
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Post by Laura on Aug 4, 2004 15:20:36 GMT -5
Reformed pedophiles? We do get a bit of a pedophile subtext for Angel in his relationship with teenage Buffy (I'm thinking in particular of that scene where he sits in that rundown car, staring at 15 yr old Buffy licking a lollipop). But other than this sort of sideways mention, I can't think of any other suggestion of pedophilia for either of them, text or subtext. But they are certainly reformed criminals, with the worst sort of crimes in their history. BUT, I think Buffy could, should, can, and does forgive Spike his past. And I think the implication is that she will forgive Angel too, once she fully realizes that Angel is responsible for his crimes, and requires that acknowledgement and forgiveness. (In the past, she hasn't so much forgiven Angel, as refused to believe he had any connection to his evil past.) But forgiving either on of them doesn't equal deciding "he's the man for me." Such a past, and the journey toward overcoming it, makes a person quite different from someone without such experiences. I don't think that, ultimately, either Angel or Spike is the man for Buffy, or Buffy is the woman for them. And I think we get very clear signals that Joss would never, ever go there. The relationship with Angel is very High-School and somewhat paternal. My feeling is that Joss would never hook grown-up Buffy back with someone with whom she had that sort of history. It's just so very contrary to the whole set up of girl-power, growth and independence for Buffy. I would be devastedly disappointed in Joss if he did such a thing. He'd ruin my hero, Buffy. Conversely, Spike's relationship with Buffy has a heavy element of the maternal for Spike. And going back there would be contrary in the same way for Spike and his growth. I would be horribly disappointed if he did such a thing. He'd ruin my hero, Spike. Mostly, my contention that Buffy will never end up with either guy is around that sort of thing - it goes totally, totally, totally against my concept of the Jossian, against my concept of what the show is about, at it's core: Our growth as people as we journey forward through our lives. Yes. This is precisely it -- as much as anyone might agree or disagree with either the B/A or the B/S relationships at the time that they existed for Buffy, the fact remains that she has outgrown them. That is what we have consistently been shown by Joss and ME over the course of the seasons.
That does not detract from whatever residual feelings Buffy may have for either one of them. But she is not going to be moving backwards to be with either of them.[/size]
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 5, 2004 7:11:03 GMT -5
Yes. This is precisely it -- as much as anyone might agree or disagree with either the B/A or the B/S relationships at the time that they existed for Buffy, the fact remains that she has outgrown them. That is what we have consistently been shown by Joss and ME over the course of the seasons.
That does not detract from whatever residual feelings Buffy may have for either one of them. But she is not going to be moving backwards to be with either of them. [/size][/quote] Yes, and I would add that going back with Buffy would also be backward movement for Spike and Angel. Spike is in dire need of moving past Buffy and establishing himself independently and then, finding someone he sees as an equal, not an goddess on a pedestal. And Angel is in dire need of integrating himself, of coming together as a whole - the last thing he needs is someone who supports his view of himself as someone totally apart from Angelus. He needs someone who sees him and accepts him warts and all, and whom he sees and accepts warts and all. He needs to move forward to an adult relationship between equals. I know an argument could be made that AFTER all three characters have come to better terms with themselves and established themselves, then maybe Buffy & "your favorite vampire" could get together . . . but that is . . . it just feels so wrong and unlikely to me.
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Post by LadyDi on Aug 7, 2004 9:38:15 GMT -5
Oh - I think "Buffy & Angel" are fundamentally wrong, and I think that, underneath the idealized layer, they are being presented that way. I think you feel queasy because you are meant to feel queasy and queasy is a very appropriate reaction. The answer to "why is it OK for her to mack on a guy who tortured her- etc?" is: It's not OK. And nobody EXCEPT BUFFY is saying that it is. Buffy has a HUGE blind spot when it comes to Angel. She's just starting to get past that, in Chosen. Buffy has feelings for Angel and when she sees him again after so long those feelings are momentarily aroused and she gives him a long, warm kiss. She's barely begun to understand that her longstanding conviction ( that she expresses with such notable vehmence in Crush "Angel was GOOD!") may not be 100% on the mark. But she's gotten far enough that for the first time ever, she talks about her relationship with Angel as if maybe if wasn't perfection, and she makes it clear that their chances are not good of ever getting together. That is a lot, for Buffy. I think Spike & Buffy are also fundamentally wrong, when you get to the bottom of it, for the same reason - how does 100+ years of murder and torment of others ever get past the queasy? This is what I mean w/the rationalize. I know (intellectually) Buffy's in a much different place in s3 than s7. And yes, ME did a lot to imply the wrongness, but it's still very bothersome. Her conversation w/Angel in Chosen is somewhat mitigating. I think Spike would've appreciated the Dawson's Creek ref. As for the kiss, I had a very nasty s2 flashback. Once again Spike is watching from the shadows as the woman he loves kisses Angel. Have been wondering why Spike wouldn't make his presence known. Maybe he wanted to see what Buffy would do? As for Spike, the fact that he's a million miles away from "I'm nothing w/o her" is bloody fabulous. OTOH, sunshine and grandkids would be issues w/most any mortal woman he might be interested in, and other vamps are pretty much out too. Doesn't leave him w/too many options. Plus, Spike's past isn't gonna change no matter who he's with. If his past makes him a wrong guy, he'll continue to be wrong. Bias stipulated, I just don't get the same feeling of WRONG! w/Buffy and Spike. They wind up (surprisingly) being good for each other. Interesting observation - Spike killed two Slayers. Two slayers have since taken their proverbial pound of flesh. Not sure what to make of it. Just something that occured to me after Damaged.
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