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Post by raenstorm on Jun 13, 2003 6:24:58 GMT -5
Karalee, my instructions on adding a picture to a profile seem to have vanished. However. Rae has made quite a useful FAQ sheet on the main board that will walk you through the appropriate procedures. I didn't want you to do what I did: wander around looking for something that was no longer there. I think Rae's FAQ sheet will help you through the process of modifying your profile. If there's anything in particular you have a problem with, Rae or David will help (when they're online). Happy profiling! Gail was quite right, Nan. I moved your instructions on how to get a picture into a profile into the Help thread when trying to clean up the few threads we had left over from testing out the board. So, karalee can find them there... or probably already did given her new smurf avatar
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 13, 2003 6:33:50 GMT -5
In defense of Riley, I’m on the side that saw Riley as more or less manipulated by Spike etc. into his reaction with Buffy. And agree that Buffy’s lockdown didn’t help things. We’ve seen Buffy show more emotion with Spike and Angel; heck, we’ve seen Buffy show more emotion with Parker Abrahms. But for whatever reason, Riley couldn’t get in. Although I do believe that happens – like the Vertical Horizon song, “He’s everything you want, he’s everything you need. He’s everything inside of you that wish you could be. He says all the right things at just the right time, but he means nothing to you and you don’t know why.” Some people can seem absolutely perfect on paper, and yet they just don’t get the spark going. I’ve had plenty of dates off the Internet where the girl sounded like everything I could ever ask for, and she was attractive enough, but once we met, nothing clicked. She was still everything I could have asked for, just no sparkage. Enter Riley Finn – everything Buffy ever wanted in a guy, but no spark. And sometimes, that can be the toughest relationships to break off, because we start thinking, “Ok, this person is perfect, so the problem must be me.” Patti mentioned that we guys are human – different from girls, but still human. And aren’t we all grateful for those differences. Ok, maybe not all of the differences….. Dave - I do think that Riley lets Spike's taunts get to him, etc., but as Buffy said in The Yoko Factor - trouble was stir-upable. I agree with your assessment that, ultimately, the necessary spark just wasn't there. That fact was hard for Riley to face, so he acted out for awhile, and then he did the right thing for himself, and left. Riley had gotten really down, but as Spike tells him, it doesn't matter how low he goes. It's not in him to be a monster; it's not in him to give in to the sort of true, utter, self-loathing and despair that would have allowed him to continue down the path he started on, hurting himself and hurting others. Riley can't stay in the dark place. I think that's what all the "skyward" imagery is about for Riley. It's not about telling us Riley is some kind of perfect hero, but that he is doing the right thing - for himself - by leaving. He wants someone to love him fully; he loves Buffy, but he also loves himself, and he acts from that good place, though it hurts him to do so. Riley is doing what's best for himself - a relative rarity in the Buffyverse. It's a big and deliberate contrast with Buffy and her inabilty to let go of Angel (as Riley tells her early on: "You wanna stay down in that dark place."), and later, Spike's Season 6 inability to let self-respect play a part in his relationship with Buffy.
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Post by ldelrossi on Jun 13, 2003 6:37:20 GMT -5
Thanks so much to Miss Buffy for the link! I too am writing a story and wanted to know about Angel's tatoo. I am still wondering about the things hanging from the chain around his neck. It has to have some importance because the scene shows him putting it on. Why would Joss do that in a scene if it has no significance?
As I remember from the Angel episode, Angel did not rape Drusilla. He and Darla had rather rough sex right in front of her in the convent. She had just taken her vows as a nun when Angel came to the convent and killed all the nuns in front of Drusilla.
Previously, when Angel heard her confession, she said "I want to be pure" and since she was now a nun, the sex scene in front of her would be another push toward insanity.
I think she was already unstable because of her "sight" and her monther's admonition that only God should be able to see the future. Angel didn't help in the confessional when he called her a "devil child", told her she was a"spawn of Satan" and said that "God will use you and smite you down, He's like that."
Angel killed her entire family so that might also make her unstable.
Read Nan's essay on Vampire Sex. Vampires do not generally have sweet, gentle sex. As Nan says, to vampires everything is about power. Rough sex is about power.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jun 13, 2003 6:53:57 GMT -5
Sarah - What a great essay! Loved both the content and the presentation. Really well thought out, supported and executed. Bravo! More, more!
There are so many noteworthy elements, and I recommend the essay to one and all. Given our recent discussions though, I'm going to quote this part, from the end of the essay (referring to Spike's self-acceptance):
"This, I feel, explains Spike’s reaction to Buffy’s admission of love at the end. He knows that she’s not really ready yet to make that declaration, both because she doesn’t really know him as well as she thinks she does, and because she doesn’t yet entirely know herself. Alas for a season eight."
You said it.
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Post by Kerrie on Jun 13, 2003 6:56:52 GMT -5
In defense of Riley, I’m on the side that saw Riley as more or less manipulated by Spike etc. into his reaction with Buffy. And agree that Buffy’s lockdown didn’t help things. We’ve seen Buffy show more emotion with Spike and Angel; heck, we’ve seen Buffy show more emotion with Parker Abrahms. But for whatever reason, Riley couldn’t get in. Although I do believe that happens – like the Vertical Horizon song, “He’s everything you want, he’s everything you need. He’s everything inside of you that wish you could be. He says all the right things at just the right time, but he means nothing to you and you don’t know why.” Some people can seem absolutely perfect on paper, and yet they just don’t get the spark going. I’ve had plenty of dates off the Internet where the girl sounded like everything I could ever ask for, and she was attractive enough, but once we met, nothing clicked. She was still everything I could have asked for, just no sparkage. Enter Riley Finn – everything Buffy ever wanted in a guy, but no spark. And sometimes, that can be the toughest relationships to break off, because we start thinking, “Ok, this person is perfect, so the problem must be me.” I realise it is probably just me, but what is with this obsession with 'sparkage'. As far as I'm concerned a life-partner is just another best friend that you have sex with. (NB I say sex, not 'making love' because I haven't got a bloody clue what the difference is - it seems like some kind of romantic idealism to me.) I know we have talked a lot about Riley recently and how he is not as good a match for Buffy as Angel or Spike. Some of that relates to his immaturity (lack of life experience), machoism and lack of sparkage. The first two I agree with - it means that he is less than ideal as Buffy's life-partner. Note less than ideal, not impossible. The lack of 'sparkage' which I can only assume includes passion(but, not exclusively) is not what I think is important to any long-term relationship. In fact I would say it was counter-productive: it compicates issues that should be simple. For instance Angel turns into Angelus when he has sex makes love to Buffy. Buffy should have just killed him, but her heart/her passion lets him live and then lets her regret, apparently forever, that they can't be together. Likewise her passion for Spike makes the whole AR complicated when it is actually quite straight-forward: he's evil and their relationship is over. I am just hypothesising, but I suspect that if Riley had have abused Buffy in the manner of Angel or Spike, he would not have got a free pass - he would have got his marching orders, because she would be dispassionate enough to see the abuse for what it is. You see and hear so many stories of people, usually women, staying with abusive partners, but the real issue never gets addressed: passion makes people blind and it should not be a factor (or only as a negative) when chooisng a life-partner. I know BtVS is a 'kids' show, but the romanticisation (Is this a real word) of passion as an essential ingredient in long-term relationships sickens me. Whilst I'm ranting away I may as well also say that I think BtVS is also pushing another fairy-tale that I don't believe. Traditionally, the fairy-tale is that the virgin princess meets Prince Charming and falls in love with him (whatever that means) and marries him. In keeping with our times, the new fairy-tale is that the princess needs to have multiple boy-friends in order to find herself and her "true love", Prince Charming. There is no recognition that (a) she doesn't need boy-friends to find herself (the two are unrelated, if not opposing) and (b) she shouldn't be looking for Prince Charming - Prince Satisfactory will be fine! I think I have finished ranting now. I know I have said all this before, but the whole 'true love" thing in marriage is a crock - it is not necessary and not even desirable. From a pragmatist who happily married Prince Satisfactory without any other prior (or ongoing ) relationships, Kerrie.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 13, 2003 7:27:03 GMT -5
Read Nan's essay on Vampire Sex. Vampires do not generally have sweet, gentle sex. As Nan says, to vampires everything is about power. Rough sex is about power. Lori (am I remembering your name correctly?), you are always insightful and witty when you agree with me and declare that I'm right. How very perceptive of you! We must get to know one another better! [/color]
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Post by ldelrossi on Jun 13, 2003 7:28:17 GMT -5
I too recommend Sarah's essay on Spike's duster. It is truly brilliant! I often wondered about the symbolism behind the dusters, both Angel's and Spike's. Of course, I just kept wondering until I read the essay.
Now I have something else to think about:
...the internal Angel/Angelus conflict. Neigher aspect of Angel can accept the other, which is his ultimate tragedy."
I will ponder this carefully. Unlike most on this board, I am a deeply connected Angel fan. He epitomizes to me every tragic hero in literature. His torment makes him a multidimensional character to me. His dichotomy is part of that suffering, much like Hamlet's wavering, Othello's tortured, brural decision and Romeo's rash suicide.
Thanks for the essay Sarah and for inspiring me to think even more about characters who intrigue all of us.
Lori
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Post by John G on Jun 13, 2003 7:31:07 GMT -5
Unlike most on this board, I am a deeply connected Angel fan. He epitomizes to me every tragic hero in literature. His torment makes him a multidimensional character to me. His dichotomy is part of that suffering, much like Hamlet's wavering, Othello's tortured, brural decision and Romeo's rash suicide. You're not the only one Lori! Count myself, Lee and missbuffy, and I think Dave, among your number!
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Post by John G on Jun 13, 2003 7:35:53 GMT -5
Okay, I'm a little cooky, but when I pick up a new Buffy DVD set, I try to watch them straight through, and get my mindstate into a "this is the first time I'm seeing this" mental state. I try to watch as if I don't know what's going to happen. Anyway, I'm going through Season 4 (which, in retrospect, isn't as bad as I initially thought), and I watched the Initiative last night. Watching it as if I didn't know anything, it was fantastic. Action, surprise, suspense. I thought a well written episode. And it gave me this huge interest in the Initiative. And thinking forward, when Buffy & Riley met up in Hush, and discovered each other's secrets, again, I was very excited with the Initiative.
So, what went wrong? I know most people thought the Initiative grew old and boring. When did it fail. Where did it lose people (if it did)? Was it the introduction of Adam, or had it gotten annoying before that? I'd like to hear people's opinions.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 13, 2003 7:36:30 GMT -5
I realise it is probably just me, but what is with this obsession with 'sparkage'. As far as I'm concerned a life-partner is just another best friend that you have sex with. (NB I say sex, not 'making love' because I haven't got a bloody clue what the difference is - it seems like some kind of romantic idealism to me.) I know we have talked a lot about Riley recently and how he is not as good a match for Buffy as Angel or Spike. Some of that relates to his immaturity (lack of life experience), machoism and lack of sparkage. The first two I agree with - it means that he is less than ideal as Buffy's life-partner. Note less than ideal, not impossible. The lack of 'sparkage' which I can only assume includes passion(but, not exclusively) is not what I think is important to any long-term relationship. In fact I would say it was counter-productive: it compicates issues that should be simple. For instance Angel turns into Angelus when he has sex makes love to Buffy. Buffy should have just killed him, but her heart/her passion lets him live and then lets her regret, apparently forever, that they can't be together. Likewise her passion for Spike makes the whole AR complicated when it is actually quite straight-forward: he's evil and their relationship is over. I am just hypothesising, but I suspect that if Riley had have abused Buffy in the manner of Angel or Spike, he would not have got a free pass - he would have got his marching orders, because she would be dispassionate enough to see the abuse for what it is. You see and hear so many stories of people, usually women, staying with abusive partners, but the real issue never gets addressed: passion makes people blind and it should not be a factor (or only as a negative) when chooisng a life-partner. I know BtVS is a 'kids' show, but the romanticisation (Is this a real word) of passion as an essential ingredient in long-term relationships sickens me. Whilst I'm ranting away I may as well also say that I think BtVS is also pushing another fairy-tale that I don't believe. Traditionally, the fairy-tale is that the virgin princess meets Prince Charming and falls in love with him (whatever that means) and marries him. In keeping with our times, the new fairy-tale is that the princess needs to have multiple boy-friends in order to find herself and her "true love", Prince Charming. There is no recognition that (a) she doesn't need boy-friends to find herself (the two are unrelated, if not opposing) and (b) she shouldn't be looking for Prince Charming - Prince Satisfactory will be fine! I think I have finished ranting now. I know I have said all this before, but the whole 'true love" thing in marriage is a crock - it is not necessary and not even desirable. From a pragmatist who happily married Prince Satisfactory without any other prior (or ongoing ) relationships, Kerrie. Kerrie, as my particular rant has to do with my problem in finding the "soul mate" scenario the least bit credible (though other S'cubies have argued otherwise persuasively, both theoretically and from their direct experience) I guess you and I have to hold up the pragmatic front here. I pretty much agree with you about the destructiveness of passion. However, I'm afraid Spike wouldn't agree with either of us. He's a Flaming Romantic, bless his unbeating little heart, and his views on the absolute necessity of passion and its primacy over love, much less friendship, are made amply clear.
One can, perhaps, set those views aside from a series philosophy point of view by saying they are the views of an undead soulless monster and therefore have no validity. But he holds them with such PASSION, and they're borne out in relationship after relationship (beginning with Buffy/Angel) that I'm afraid that if ME meant to undercut them rather than support them, they haven't done too good a job of it. Spike speaks emotional Truth as he knows it, and we certainly can't discount it, because he believes it utterly and lives by it. So I think us more rational types have to sit at his feet and try to learn what he knows and try to understand why this particular flavor of irrationality is so high on his personal agenda.[/color]
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Post by John G on Jun 13, 2003 7:38:38 GMT -5
Lori (am I remembering your name correctly?), you are always insightful and witty when you agree with me and declare that I'm right. How very perceptive of you! We must get to know one another better! [/color][/quote] Nan made me laugh..and such and such....
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Post by ldelrossi on Jun 13, 2003 7:44:50 GMT -5
Thank you for responding James. I'm glad that others like Angel; sometimes it feels so Spikecentric here. I missed most of the last season of Buffy since I was teaching a course and couldn't tape it for a variety of reasons so I am unable to discuss it and feel lost.
I enjoy reading the posts although the huge number of them is overwhelming at times. I have printed out every essay and story and plan to read all of them as soon as school is over. But from what I've read so far, you are all thoughtful and talented.
I can't wait for the new season of Angel to start for many reasons, but one of the them is because I know reading all of the Loriinsightful comments will make the episodes even better. They did over on Scoopme!
Lori
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 13, 2003 7:45:47 GMT -5
and I just can't hide it, I'm about to lose control and I just can't fight it . . . GOt my plane tickets and itinerary for Las Vegas -- Leave in 16 days. This one's for Betsy L:
"My bags are packed, I am ready for my flight Going to put an end to my daydream days and sleepless nights... ...I'll be waiting...In Nevada..."
Be good, and if you can't be good, be clever. Have lots of fun!
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Post by ldelrossi on Jun 13, 2003 7:48:59 GMT -5
Sorry - editing error - it should read "insightful commenst" not "Loriinsightful."
Lori
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 13, 2003 7:50:55 GMT -5
Omit me from invites you plan Tell me my face looks like a man Give credit not for work I've done My complaining won't be fun. My friend, don't be a silly jerk, Your bullet simply will not work No vampire, fiend, no demon race A godess, here, is what you face. Alas, my friend protests o'ermuch 'bout Spangels, Spanders and all such What can I say that is enough Spike says it better, "Bugger off!" Diane (Bloody Awful) Poet-in-Residence Yay Diane! All hail the Poet-Goddess!
Lovely, *snort* - it's a good thing we have a no drinks at the computer policy!
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