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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 9:14:55 GMT -5
Mary, read your new chapters of Journey's and am also so hooked on that story. WIl definitely be printing those out and and starting a book of my faves. Thanks! Love your B&W pic of Angel & Spike, btw. Did you manip it yourself? That's one of my absolute fave shots of Spike - 1/2 light, 1/2 dark. It's the one I had Rabid use at the page she made me, and also one that I have in an 8X10 autographed form. Mary
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 9:18:08 GMT -5
Thanks! Love your B&W pic of Angel & Spike, btw. Did you manip it yourself? That's one of my absolute fave shots of Spike - 1/2 light, 1/2 dark. It's the one I had Rabid use at the page she made me, and also one that I have in an 8X10 autographed form. Mary All I did to the pic was resize it. I took it from the logo on The Clockwork Vampire fan fic site. I just love the pic and then there's something about it being in B&W. I want to find more pics of Angel/Angelus and Spike. I guess I could take separate pics and put them together. Will have to play again tonite. I've seem to have gotten my creative juices going again. Yesterday was the first I've used my graphics program in about a week.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jun 17, 2003 9:19:11 GMT -5
Master Vampire isn't, to my knowledge, a Jossverse term, though it's certainly widely used in Buffy fanfiction. (If its been used on either show, I'm unaware of it.) Does anyone know where it originated, and what, exactly, the definition is? I mean, I've always just assumed it's a vamp that has reached a certain age, though I don't know what age that is. Can anyone define it more clearly, and tell me what they're basing their definition on? Mary Mary, I would distinguish between a sire--one who turns and then raises/instructs an individual--and a Master Vampire, who maintains a household, has (unrelated) minions, and perhaps but not necessarily childer. Any vamp who turns another is not a sire: that's a familial rather than a practical relationship; and not all sires would be Master Vampires, the latter term being essentially a political one. But a vamp could certainly be both, as Angelus was. Leaving aside the problemantic question of Will's siring, Angelus maintained a household comprised of himself, Darla, Drusilla, and William/Spike for a considerable number of years; but only Dru had he sired directly. It's possible that there's also a vague age qualification (in terms of vampire age, not human or chronological age) but that's never made explicit.
The chief example of a Master is....well, The Master. And he has one childe in his household during the time we see him: Darla. And among his many minions, the principal one we see is Luke. In "Lie to Me," Spike is enacting virtually the identical social role, with Dru as his consort and no childer. I don't offhand think of anybody acting as true sire in BtVS: however, on AtS, there's a bit more interaction between Angel and Dru, his only known childe, and between Darla and Angel, her childe. I haven't seen these episodes and so don't know how much light they shed on the sire/childe bond and relationship.
And on what is this based? In part, observation. But for the rest, damn all. I made it up.[/color]
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 17, 2003 9:21:59 GMT -5
is gorgeous! There is just something about the black and white that pulls me in. I love b/w art photography. Your signature line is a hoot, too!
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 9:26:20 GMT -5
And on what is this based? In part, observation. But for the rest, damn all. I made it up.[/color][/quote] LOL. Imagination is good, even if it ISN'T "ebulgent". (In the sense that Spike's is 'ebulgent'.) Mary
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Post by John G on Jun 17, 2003 9:36:03 GMT -5
Which one Lee . . the one under the pic or the one at the bottom of my messages? The one on the bottom I just had to change Buffy's name to my own . . . .I'd treat him with so more respect and being older and much more experienced than she -- would show him quite the good time ;D Okay, on that thought, I'm off to start working now with visions of a certain platinum haired vamp on the mind. BTW, NAN was reading the 3 new chapters of EME . . am so totally hooked Mary, read your new chapters of Journey's and am also so hooked on that story. WIl definitely be printing those out and and starting a book of my faves. I'm passing Sweet William (by Peasan)on to a girlfriend of mine. That was one awesome story and so believable. Betsy, the picture is really cool too! And I love you now that I have a fellow drinker! Let's do some whiskey and tequilla shots. I bet it'll make work more exciting!
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Post by Laura on Jun 17, 2003 9:37:54 GMT -5
Mary, I would distinguish between a sire--one who turns and then raises/instructs an individual--and a Master Vampire, who maintains a household, has (unrelated) minions, and perhaps but not necessarily childer. Any vamp who turns another is not a sire: that's a familial rather than a practical relationship; and not all sires would be Master Vampires, the latter term being essentially a political one. But a vamp could certainly be both, as Angelus was. Leaving aside the problemantic question of Will's siring, Angelus maintained a household comprised of himself, Darla, Drusilla, and William/Spike for a considerable number of years; but only Dru had he sired directly. It's possible that there's also a vague age qualification (in terms of vampire age, not human or chronological age) but that's never made explicit.
The chief example of a Master is....well, The Master. And he has one childe in his household during the time we see him: Darla. And among his many minions, the principal one we see is Luke. In "Lie to Me," Spike is enacting virtually the identical social role, with Dru as his consort and no childer. I don't offhand think of anybody acting as true sire in BtVS: however, on AtS, there's a bit more interaction between Angel and Dru, his only known childe, and between Darla and Angel, her childe. I haven't seen these episodes and so don't know how much light they shed on the sire/childe bond and relationship.
And on what is this based? In part, observation. But for the rest, damn all. I made it up. [/color][/quote] Nan, Angel's sired at least two other vamps that have passed through "AtS" -- in S1, we saw the vamp Penn as serial killer (the same episode in which we met Kate Lockley, I think), and in the opening ep of S3, there was James, the vamp who was so in love with his vamp girlfriend -- the other pair that went trolling around with Angelus and Darla (no mention of where Spike and Drusilla were then (or even if they'd been turned yet)).
Actually, now that I think about that episode, it provides an interesting character to compare to Spike -- I don't remember who wrote it (or if that writer ever wrote for "BtVS") -- but that was another vampire who, despite being turned, loved another. (Any one else want to play with this?)
And I speak as one who agrees with Spring (I think) that vampires without souls are inherently evil. I need some time to flesh out my thoughts on this and get them on paper -- but I think that the "neutral" demons are the minority, and that most demons are evil and to be killed in order to safeguard the greater good.
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 9:46:38 GMT -5
however, on AtS, there's a bit more interaction between Angel and Dru, his only known childe, [/color][/quote] I want to respond more on this talk as it's interesting, but will have to wait til I have more time. BUt I believe that Angelus did sire one other. In an episode of Angel (First season I believe), he was having dreams of killing again and leaving his mark on the cheek of the victim. Turns out it was another he had sired/taught, but I can't remember his name. I believe this is where Kate found out about Vamps and Angel being one. Anyone else recollect this episode?
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 9:47:17 GMT -5
there was James, the vamp who was so in love with his vamp girlfriend -- Just inserting that I think the girlfriend's name was Elizabeth, and that they had a very long term relationship - they were still together on the ep of Angel. Angelus and Darla were also together for a very long time. That's a minimum of three long-term vamp relationships, which could possibly be considered a 'trend'. And, again, all Aurelius. Plus Darla and The Master, who, it seems, she returned to at least on occassion. Mary
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 9:48:16 GMT -5
Betsy, the picture is really cool too! And I love you now that I have a fellow drinker! Let's do some whiskey and tequilla shots. I bet it'll make work more exciting! Now you are talking . . . . A man after my own heart. I love doing Jack Daniels shots and tequila shots . . . have you ever had the Tarantula tequila? It's blue and nice and smooth. A bit more expensive and Jose Cuervo, but definitely worth it.
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 9:56:56 GMT -5
Nan, Angel's sired at least two other vamps that have passed through "AtS" -- in S1, we saw the vamp Penn as serial killer (the same episode in which we met Kate Lockley, I think), and in the opening ep of S3, there was James, the vamp who was so in love with his vamp girlfriend -- the other pair that went trolling around with Angelus and Darla (no mention of where Spike and Drusilla were then (or even if they'd been turned yet)).
Actually, now that I think about that episode, it provides an interesting character to compare to Spike -- I don't remember who wrote it (or if that writer ever wrote for "BtVS") -- but that was another vampire who, despite being turned, loved another. (Any one else want to play with this?)
And I speak as one who agrees with Spring (I think) that vampires without souls are inherently evil. I need some time to flesh out my thoughts on this and get them on paper -- but I think that the "neutral" demons are the minority, and that most demons are evil and to be killed in order to safeguard the greater good.
I guess I should read all the posts before asking my question as it was answered. But I did totally forget that other one with the girlfriend. I that episode was Season 2. Will have to check out the scripts. But now the question is when were they Sired? We know that after he was imbued with a soul he left his little "family". So I'm wondering if it was before Dru sired Spike. IF that's so, then why didn't Pen and the other one join their little family? Why did they decide to keep Spike? Makes me wonder if maybe Angelus saw more potential or liked SPike better. Any thoughts on this?
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Post by Queen E on Jun 17, 2003 9:59:00 GMT -5
That was Penn, in the episode "Sonambulist." He was a puritan boy that Angelus turned in 1786 and guided him in the ways of remorseless killing, including the cross on the cheek thing. And yes, that's where Kate discovers he's a vampire. (She researchs him and finds out that cross on the cheek thing was his signature back in the day.)
Spike was turned in 1880, and Angelus was ensouled in 1898.
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:09:47 GMT -5
But now the question is when were they Sired? We know that after he was imbued with a soul he left his little "family". So I'm wondering if it was before Dru sired Spike. IF that's so, then why didn't Pen and the other one join their little family? Why did they decide to keep Spike? Makes me wonder if maybe Angelus saw more potential or liked SPike better. Any thoughts on this? I didn't see the ep with James and Elizabeth, so don't know if any time frame was given. As for Spike's siring - I've always had the impression Dru wanted him for some reason. Maybe she saw a destiny for him...?? (Little fishes swimming about his head has, by some, been said to foretell the Initiative chip.) Of course, when you've read as much fanfic as I have, you can no longer tell what ideas in your head were actually generated by the show, and which would never have existed if you hadn't read as many stories mentioning certain things. Mary
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 10:10:36 GMT -5
That was Penn, in the episode "Sonambulist." He was a puritan boy that Angelus turned in 1786 and guided him in the ways of remorseless killing, including the cross on the cheek thing. And yes, that's where Kate discovers he's a vampire. (She researchs him and finds out that cross on the cheek thing was his signature back in the day.) Spike was turned in 1880, and Angelus was ensouled in 1898. Okay, so that was 14 years before Spike. Wonder why Penn didn't stay with the "family". What about that other one with his girlfriend? Anyone have leads on him?
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 10:12:08 GMT -5
I didn't see the ep with James and Elizabeth, so don't know if any time frame was given. As for Spike's siring - I've always had the impression Dru wanted him for some reason. Maybe she saw a destiny for him...?? (Little fishes swimming about his head has, by some, been said to foretell the Initiative chip.) Of course, when you've read as much fanfic as I have, you can no longer tell what ideas in your head were actually generated by the show, and which would never have existed if you hadn't read as many stories mentioning certain things. Mary I know and understand where you are coming from Mary. I've been reading so much of it, it's become confused with the episodes. In someways, I like how much the characters are fleshed out in the fic (especially Angel and Spike). I wish they do that in the coming seasons of Angel.
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