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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:16:17 GMT -5
I know and understand where you are coming from Mary. I've been reading so much of it, it's become confused with the episodes. In someways, I like how much the characters are fleshed out in the fic (especially Angel and Spike). Not to mention, if you're reading a dozen or so WIPs, you can have quite the time remembering what happened in which fic! Mary
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Post by Karen on Jun 17, 2003 10:16:41 GMT -5
Nan - kudos on the interesting topic! Exploring the nature of evil is certainly one of the main themes of the series. I would argue that vampires are evil . . . we may not have seen any of them (except Spike, temporarily) under direct control of The First, but they are animated by demons - they're members of the side of evil by definition (this makes me think of SchoolHard Spike calling Angel an Uncle Tom because he's switched sides). They aren't like wolves after prey. We see them take more than the natural pleasure of a wolf in a kill. They sometimes kill without feeding (SchoolHard again, Spike kills that older teacher, saying something about how he usually prefers younger kills to eat, but he doesn't have to eat him). He kills him by snapping his neck and then says (paraphrasing) "there, now I feel better." In other words, we see evidence that they enjoy killing for killing's sake, causing pain for the sake of causing pain - so yes, in my book, they are evil. Now, they are not all pure, absolute evil, ala Angelus. I think of Angelus as representing the vampire in its purest form (i.e., pure evil) - Liam ("I've always been weak") gets completely obliterated. Spike's on the other end, and he manages - with the assitance of his chip and his Buffy-love, to fight the demon (the evil) inside of him to the extent that he does truly good deeds, and eventually gets his soul. But I think this all speaks to vampires being essentially evil. I agree that vampires are essentially evil, too, Spring. But humans can be evil, too. So, maybe to the degree the human was evil somehow bleeds thru to the vampire. As well as other human traits, such as weakness (like Angel), or compassion and sensitivity (like Spike). I don't know if this board likes to have comic book insights, but I picked up Joss Whedon's "Fray" and got hooked on that world. Here's a website that has a timeline of all past slayers, including Buffy and Fray, and an explanation of the first vampires and slayer. www.geocities.com/tales_slayer/Here's an exerpt: "For untold eons, demons walked the Earth, made it their home, their Hell. In time, they lost their purchase on this reality, and the way was made for mortal animals. For Man. What remains of the Old Ones are vestiges: certain magicks, certain creatures… The last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed- infected- by the demon's soul. He bit another and another… and so they walk the Earth, feeding. Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out and the Old Ones to return. The vampires were a plague. The elders of several villages met, calling for action. They invoked the strongest and most dangerous magicks they could summon, to create a power, a power that could fight the vampires. A power that lived in the body of a girl. The first Slayer was born. She fought, and died, and was succeeded by another, and another. Throughout time, always one. Always a woman. A warrior. They were trained, sought out and guided by Watchers, descendants of the shamans who created the first Slayer."
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Post by deborah on Jun 17, 2003 10:18:10 GMT -5
<snip> Vampires aren't indescriminant about who they turn. There are very few children vampires (other than the Annoying One). Nor do we see any elderly vampires, not even among the dust-fodder we see every week. I don't buy an argument based on "they weren't very strong in life and as such wouldn't live very long as vampires" either. Embued with vampire strength, I think that the older-humans-turned-vampire would live longer since older people tend to have more life experience and are therefore more savvy. Well certainly more intelligent than the average Sunnydale teen. <snip> Dalton who was Spike's translator/transcriber and whatshisname who was Spike's engineer in Harsh Light of Day are two examples I can think of off the top of my head of people who were probably turned presumably because their sire (Spike?) desired use of their special skills.
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Post by John G on Jun 17, 2003 10:25:01 GMT -5
Now you are talking . . . . A man after my own heart. I love doing Jack Daniels shots and tequila shots . . . have you ever had the Tarantula tequila? It's blue and nice and smooth. A bit more expensive and Jose Cuervo, but definitely worth it. I have indulged, of course, my favorite way too expensive alcoholic beverage is Johnnie Walker Blue! Excellent scotch which I can only truly get if a senior partner from a firm is taking me out to lunch and buying!
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:25:01 GMT -5
Dalton who was Spike's translator/transcriber and whatshisname who was Spike's engineer in Harsh Light of Day are two examples I can think of off the top of my head of people who were probably turned presumably because their sire (Spike?) desired use of their special skills. I've thought of that many times, too, Deb, and wondered if they were turned for their skills, or if they 'advanced in the ranks' of vampire hierarchy because they possessed skills that the higher ups could utilize. Mary
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Post by Queen E on Jun 17, 2003 10:26:21 GMT -5
I always got the sense that Angelus' family was always rather amorphous. There was his time with Penn in Colonial America (I think); Penn talks about waiting for him the whole 19th century (Angel's reply: "I got held up in Romania") and he and Darla with James and Elisabeth in Marseilles in 1767, then Darla, Dru and he in the mid-19th century, and then Darla, Dru, Spike, and he in the late 19th century. That boy got around.
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:31:00 GMT -5
I agree that vampires are essentially evil, too, Spring. But humans can be evil, too. So, maybe to the degree the human was evil somehow bleeds thru to the vampire. As well as other human traits, such as weakness (like Angel), or compassion and sensitivity (like Spike). I don't know if this board likes to have comic book insights, but I picked up Joss Whedon's "Fray" and got hooked on that world. Here's a website that has a timeline of all past slayers, including Buffy and Fray, and an explanation of the first vampires and slayer. www.geocities.com/tales_slayer/Here's an exerpt: "For untold eons, demons walked the Earth, made it their home, their Hell. In time, they lost their purchase on this reality, and the way was made for mortal animals. For Man. What remains of the Old Ones are vestiges: certain magicks, certain creatures… The last demon to leave this reality fed off a human, mixed their blood. He was a human form possessed- infected- by the demon's soul. He bit another and another… and so they walk the Earth, feeding. Killing some, mixing their blood with others to make more of their kind. Waiting for the animals to die out and the Old Ones to return. The vampires were a plague. The elders of several villages met, calling for action. They invoked the strongest and most dangerous magicks they could summon, to create a power, a power that could fight the vampires. A power that lived in the body of a girl. The first Slayer was born. She fought, and died, and was succeeded by another, and another. Throughout time, always one. Always a woman. A warrior. They were trained, sought out and guided by Watchers, descendants of the shamans who created the first Slayer." Thanks for that link, Sandy. The first part you quoted sounds a lot like what Giles says about demon origins in one of the earliest eps of Buffy - possibly the first one. The slayer part was new to me though, and certainly seems to fit in with what we saw about slayer origins this season. I've never looked at the comic books. Didn't JM write one of them? Mary
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Jun 17, 2003 10:32:37 GMT -5
Great discussion, all. I'm going to bookmark the last page, so I can get caught up when I get back.
It's been years since I last read Dracula, and my memory is hazy - I read somewhere, once, that in earlier vampire myths, they didn't fear the cross. I have the impression that Stoker was the one who added that - could easily be wrong, though. Although I'm sure that there are non-European vampire myths, and no crosses there.
Does anyone remember when the cross thing started? Maybe I'll do some research, in my copious free time.
I rather liked Adam helping his vampires overcome their cross-phobia. It seems as if that was learned behavior, as opposed to shunning daylight, which is due to their physical limitations.
Anyway, have fun - I'm going out while I still can. Summer vacation starts at 12:30 PM tomorrow!
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Post by John G on Jun 17, 2003 10:35:12 GMT -5
It seems as if that was learned behavior, as opposed to shunning daylight, which is due to their physical limitations.
But doesn't the cross actually cause a physical reaction, i.e. burning. This can't be learned. We've seen the cross burn in Season 1 in Angel, and in Season 4 in Harsh Light of Day (I think that's the name of the episode), when Spike picks up the cross and burns his hand.
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:42:25 GMT -5
But doesn't the cross actually cause a physical reaction, i.e. burning. This can't be learned. We've seen the cross burn in Season 1 in Angel, and in Season 4 in Harsh Light of Day (I think that's the name of the episode), when Spike picks up the cross and burns his hand. We've seen the cross burning a lot. Season One Buffy - she & Angel kiss, his upper chest is burned; they put a cross into a vampire's mouth and closed his mouth as a form of torture - to get him to talk; Spike on the cross in Beneath You, etc. My favorite cross moment from Buffy? Xander holding the cross out at Willow when he thinks she's vamp Willow, and then looking at it and shaking it when she doesn't react. Never fails to crack me up. Mary
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:45:00 GMT -5
But doesn't the cross actually cause a physical reaction, i.e. burning. This can't be learned. We've seen the cross burn in Season 1 in Angel, and in Season 4 in Harsh Light of Day (I think that's the name of the episode), when Spike picks up the cross and burns his hand. I don't claim to know a thing about this, but isn't it possible to hypnotise or somehow re-program someone so they don't feel pain? Or can withstand it somehow? Thinking of Mr. Joshua in Lethal Weapon, things like that. Mary
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Post by Karen on Jun 17, 2003 10:45:29 GMT -5
Thanks for that link, Sandy. The first part you quoted sounds a lot like what Giles says about demon origins in one fo the earliest eps of Buffy - possibly the first one. The slayer part was new to me though, and certainly seems to fit in with what we saw about slayer origins this season. I've never looked at the comic books. Didn't JM write one of them? Mary I don't know about JM, but Joss Whedon has written a series called "Fray", about a slayer a few centuries in the future. She's called after a long period where slayers weren't needed. There are only going to be 8 books - the 8th one comes out on the 18th.
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Post by Betsy on Jun 17, 2003 10:52:56 GMT -5
I don't know about JM, but Joss Whedon has written a series called "Fray", about a slayer a few centuries in the future. She's called after a long period where slayers weren't needed. There are only going to be 8 books - the 8th one comes out on the 18th. I believe I read an article where JM did help write or cowrite a comic book in Spike with one of the writers from buffy. I believe I read the article on one of the JM/Spike websites. I believe I have the link at home. Can't remember the site exactly, but the link was given to me by Mary or someone on this board.
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Post by deborah on Jun 17, 2003 10:57:21 GMT -5
Since he's called a freak over and over, the suggestion seems to be there aren't many like him. And I definitely think he was "different" right from the start . . . but it was the chip and the Buffy-love that allowed that difference to bloom into something . . . I not only think of Spike as freaky, but as the occurrences which led to his redemption, happening just as they did, as freakish. That's the impression I get overall - that while Spike's re-ensoulment has huge implications in a philisophical sense, it's not likely to have any enormous impact in a practical sense. I absolutely agree. The raw material that was William and all the variables that had to come together in just the right order to trigger Spike's journey of change and redemption remind me of the story I learned in school about the primordial soup that was the beginning of life. The question of whether other vamp's can be capable of reform and are thereby entitled to *live* rather than being summarily staked or if Spike is truly unique is one that is explored at length in the fanfiction epoch Dancing Lessons. I definitely agree that Spike is an anomaly and utterly unique. I was only expressing my surprise that none of the characters on the show ever raised this question (that I can recall). It seems to me that while Spike was helping them they worked with him, recognized and accepted his help - acknowledged what he was doing, as it were. But after the fact they always conveniently *forgot* or dismissed his past help and reverted to defining him as merely evil. Everyone was quick to block out any memory of his help to them in the past until the next time they needed to call upon him for more help. None of the characters seemed to consider or discuss that Spike had helped or was helping them at all (except for Tara sometimes). It seems to me that had they done so they would have been forced to acknowledge that he was unique in the first place. Sheesh. Whatever fragile thread had connected my brain to the original point I wanted to make is now flapping in the wind so, never mind. This is not making any sense.
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Post by Mary on Jun 17, 2003 10:57:24 GMT -5
I believe I read an article where JM did help write or cowrite a comic book in Spike with one of the writers from buffy. I believe I read the article on one of the JM/Spike websites. I believe I have the link at home. Can't remember the site exactly, but the link was given to me by Mary or someone on this board. Do you mean to tell me, Betsy, that you're hanging out at this board on COMPANY TIME? I am shocked! For shame.... *snort*. Mary
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