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Post by Onjel on Sept 4, 2007 7:40:44 GMT -5
Nice job, Spring! I like the way you pointed out all the things that are yet to come for Spike, Buffy & the gang as foreshadowing in this ep, yet didn't go ahead of yourself. As usual, you pointed out so many little things that surely had to have been there that I missed the first (and even the 5th) time around. I didn't think Spike was the "good guy" by the end of this episode. I thought Spike... hmmm.. I thought he was a fascinating character, a fun character and I couldn't wait to see where it was going. I hoped for his "hero-ness" just as I hoped for him to have a relationship with Buffy. But all the while... I never wanted him to be "too good." Personally, I have always loved the anti-hero, the reluctant hero, the guy that does all the right "big stuff" but still clings to the small darknesses. The guy that finds comfort in them, joy even. Spike is close to the epitome of that. Just as when he was truly evil, he clung to the small goodnesses (the Judge knew), when he becomes good, he clings to the small evils. That's how Spike stays Spike and still grows but Angel is so little like Angelus that no one would realize he's the same person other than for his looks. I am glad you are back and I hope that you manage your self-appointed schedule. Just remember, if you can't, you can't... if you don't want to you don't want to. And no matter how many times you tell your self that you should, it's jsut not gonna be there until you actually do. Want to, that is. Vlad Right there with ya. By the end of S7 and into AtS S5, I felt that Spike's goodness/badness were more fully integrated than Angel's. Spike recognized his badness and made it work for him in his role as champion. I think that's why he beat Angel to the Mountain Dew-filled, Cup of Perpetual Torment. ;D I love the foreshadowing you brought out, Spring. I didn't even catch the references that would herald the coming musical episode and didn't connect the dots to previous season foreshadowings. The departure of the adult and the riotous freedom of the id was a very good analysis. The gang experienced the first year of college, as it were, after the first year of college, doing all those things that many kids (me among them) do when they first get free of their parents' control. Buffy's trauma cannot be emphasized enough, I agree. It was pretty obvious that she wanted to go back to where she had been and I knew it had to be a heavenly dimension when she was considering jumping again to see if she could get back there. She has a very long painful journey and I'm glad that others appreciate this season as much as I do. All of the feelings she has are so understandable, though I do know of people who just wanted her to "snap out of it" and be the old Buffy. That's not possible, but the Buffy that emerges is a much more well-rounded person, IMO and the one person that can make the decision to empower all the potential slayers in the world. Thank you so much for returning to the reviews. Oh how I've missed the tasty bits for Spike fans as well as the insights you provide.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 4, 2007 9:05:36 GMT -5
I'm having some thoughts about the 'bot. In the beginning is was Spike's sex toy and that was all. However, like everyone else in the Buffyverse, the robot changed over time. What began as only a series of programmed responses evolved as the environment around the robot changed. It was learning. It learned to respond to the Scoobies, Giles and Dawn and it learned to adjust those responses appropriately. It began to show emotional responses that went beyond its programmed perkiness and to make thoughtful answers to questions. Clearly it had a long way to go, but I think that if it had survived it would have eventually approached something like sentience. It's intriguing, but we don't know how much, if any, was due to the Bot changing by itself, and how much was due to Willow's programming, since she was constantly tinkering with it.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 4, 2007 9:43:21 GMT -5
I think that, for those who didn't like season 6, a lot of it was not because they felt it didn't make sense that Buffy would be depressed etc, but because they didn't like watching all the pain and struggle, especially when it was so direct. Also, I love the motorcycle, but whatever happened to the De Soto? We never see or hear of it again, and there's never even any explanation as to what happened to it.
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Post by Greta on Sept 4, 2007 9:59:52 GMT -5
Thank you very much for posting that review! I've been checking periodically, and seeing that it was finally done really made my day. I loved the observation about the motorcycle light- I'll have to watch out for more of that symbolism in season 6.
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Post by Michelle on Sept 4, 2007 16:31:48 GMT -5
I think that, for those who didn't like season 6, a lot of it was not because they felt it didn't make sense that Buffy would be depressed etc, but because they didn't like watching all the pain and struggle, especially when it was so direct. Also, I love the motorcycle, but whatever happened to the De Soto? We never see or hear of it again, and there's never even any explanation as to what happened to it. :( That's a good point, I think the last time we saw it was in the episode "Crush" when Spike and Buffy go on a stake-out/date. Maybe Spike chose the motorcycle over the De Soto because it's more fuel efficient. Yah, I'm sure that's the reason. ;D
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:05:35 GMT -5
Bargaining originally aired right after 9/11. The twop recapper made reference to the collapsing tower and the World Trade Center, and so whenever I rewatch the episode, the tower falling down always makes me think of 9/11. Which in the end, is pretty similar to the connection you make here, coming of age and all that. Makes sense that this tower falling would make one think of 9/11 when it aired next-day. I didn't see the episode the first time until summer repeats, so it didn't remind me of 9/11 - though yes, 9/11 certainly was one of those defining moments in American history- a huge blow, a trauma, something from which you must recover and grow. I think actual, deliberate references to 9/11 began in Season 7. "The woods" are used repeatedly, I think, as a metaphor for the period of "growing up" that Buffy and the rest find themselves in. Hmmm - I'm not sure what you mean by "that many," I only know that there is at least one more. I suspect there may be more than I can remember, because I haven't re-viewed S6 in a long time, and I remember that there were multiple "Wizard of Oz" references in S4, and then "Star Trek" references in S5 (along with further Oz references . . . I think). Anyhow, don't know what number you may be thinking of here, but I plan to try to keep my eye out for "Music Man" references. I do think whether the count ends up at 2 or 4 or whatever, they are quite deliberate. It's interesting too, that Xander - who is the one who brings "The Music Man" to town, is the one who makes the first reference to it, here. Have never heard the Consequences commentary, but yes, bor-ing is the worst! My favorite so far have been the Joss commentaries on Hush and on The Body. He's not exhaustive in providing insight, and he sort of . . . holds something back for himself, which is understandable. But unlike some of the writers, he does provide real and valuable insight into his general approach and what he was trying to convey. Thanks for the input, Liz!
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:11:44 GMT -5
I'm having some thoughts about the 'bot. In the beginning is was Spike's sex toy and that was all. However, like everyone else in the Buffyverse, the robot changed over time. What began as only a series of programmed responses evolved as the environment around the robot changed. It was learning. It learned to respond to the Scoobies, Giles and Dawn and it learned to adjust those responses appropriately. It began to show emotional responses that went beyond its programmed perkiness and to make thoughtful answers to questions. Clearly it had a long way to go, but I think that if it had survived it would have eventually approached something like sentience. The 'bot is endlessly interesting to me. I sort of saw her as sentient, with emotional responses, right from the start. She loved her Spikey, but she did save her "Guy-els" as well, in the fight in the lobby, with Glory's minions . . . she was Spike's ideal Buffy. It's interesting how, when we get to S6, Spike can find no comfort in her, while Giles does. Lots of interesting discussion could surely be had around the 'bot - the 'bot herself, as well as the interactions of others with the 'bot. Would love to hear any thoughts you have about this, Diane.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:17:54 GMT -5
Nice job, Spring! I like the way you pointed out all the things that are yet to come for Spike, Buffy & the gang as foreshadowing in this ep, yet didn't go ahead of yourself. As usual, you pointed out so many little things that surely had to have been there that I missed the first (and even the 5th) time around. I didn't think Spike was the "good guy" by the end of this episode. I thought Spike... hmmm.. I thought he was a fascinating character, a fun character and I couldn't wait to see where it was going. I hoped for his "hero-ness" just as I hoped for him to have a relationship with Buffy. But all the while... I never wanted him to be "too good." Personally, I have always loved the anti-hero, the reluctant hero, the guy that does all the right "big stuff" but still clings to the small darknesses. The guy that finds comfort in them, joy even. Spike is close to the epitome of that. Just as when he was truly evil, he clung to the small goodnesses (the Judge knew), when he becomes good, he clings to the small evils. That's how Spike stays Spike and still grows but Angel is so little like Angelus that no one would realize he's the same person other than for his looks. I am glad you are back and I hope that you manage your self-appointed schedule. Just remember, if you can't, you can't... if you don't want to you don't want to. And no matter how many times you tell your self that you should, it's jsut not gonna be there until you actually do. Want to, that is. Vlad Right there with ya. By the end of S7 and into AtS S5, I felt that Spike's goodness/badness were more fully integrated than Angel's. Spike recognized his badness and made it work for him in his role as champion. I think that's why he beat Angel to the Mountain Dew-filled, Cup of Perpetual Torment. ;D Definitely agree. I thought AtS S5 was setting Angel up to come face to face with his own "evil side" and finally own it and integrate it, in AtS, S6. I thought there was a ton of foreshadowing for this, but alas, (endless, endless curses to the WB!!! I can never forgive them!!) we weren't to see it happen. Yep - it reminded me of S5 and the Olaf troll - Giles leaves; Olaf arrives (and Willow starts experimenting with the magic in ways that Giles would disapprove of). In Bargaining, Giles leaves, the demon bikers immediately arrive (and Willow starts putting her magical plan into real action). AMEN!! Sing it, sister!! You're welcome, Onjellina. I really appreciate the input and encouragement.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:19:37 GMT -5
I'm having some thoughts about the 'bot. In the beginning is was Spike's sex toy and that was all. However, like everyone else in the Buffyverse, the robot changed over time. What began as only a series of programmed responses evolved as the environment around the robot changed. It was learning. It learned to respond to the Scoobies, Giles and Dawn and it learned to adjust those responses appropriately. It began to show emotional responses that went beyond its programmed perkiness and to make thoughtful answers to questions. Clearly it had a long way to go, but I think that if it had survived it would have eventually approached something like sentience. It's intriguing, but we don't know how much, if any, was due to the Bot changing by itself, and how much was due to Willow's programming, since she was constantly tinkering with it. Hmmmm. I am interested in any thoughts anyone may have about the 'bot. I can't say I really noticed any big change in her (through learning or through Willow-tinkering) - not that it wasn't there. I wasn't looking for it, and didn't pay attention to that aspect, so am curious to hear any thoughts on this.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:30:40 GMT -5
I think that, for those who didn't like season 6, a lot of it was not because they felt it didn't make sense that Buffy would be depressed etc, but because they didn't like watching all the pain and struggle, especially when it was so direct. I can understand not liking to watch the pain and struggling. I liked how honest and brutal the portrayal was, though I can easily see why it might not be everyone's cup of tea. What bothered me was the talk that went farther than this . . . the talk (and again, I think this was a minority of fans) that wasn't around "Gee, I hate to see such a raw portrayal" but was rather, "Gee, what an unforgiveably horrible bitch Buffy is!" I loved Buffy throughout Season 6. Considering what she was up against, she was very brave and strong. She was trying to recover from severe trauma while being burdened with nearly crushing responsibility. She didn't "snap out of it," as Onjel mentions, but she didn't give up (she almost did, a few times, also to be expected). and she did "come out of it." What is the last we see of the De Soto? Lover's Walk? When Spike comes back in Season 4 . . . I could be wrong, but I don't think we see the De Soto at all . . . My "Spike meets Harmony" fanfic has Spike coming back in S4 in the De Soto, and Harmony driving it. So I'm gonna go with "Spike let Harmony drive it, and she wrecked it."
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:31:56 GMT -5
Thank you very much for posting that review! I've been checking periodically, and seeing that it was finally done really made my day. I loved the observation about the motorcycle light- I'll have to watch out for more of that symbolism in season 6. Hi, Greta! You're welcome! It is really nice for me to get this kind of feedback. It helps motivate me to keep going. Thanks for taking the time to drop in and provide such positive feedback! Please stop back by anytime.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 4, 2007 17:33:34 GMT -5
I think that, for those who didn't like season 6, a lot of it was not because they felt it didn't make sense that Buffy would be depressed etc, but because they didn't like watching all the pain and struggle, especially when it was so direct. Also, I love the motorcycle, but whatever happened to the De Soto? We never see or hear of it again, and there's never even any explanation as to what happened to it. :( That's a good point, I think the last time we saw it was in the episode "Crush" when Spike and Buffy go on a stake-out/date. Maybe Spike chose the motorcycle over the De Soto because it's more fuel efficient. Yah, I'm sure that's the reason. ;D Ah, yes! Crush!OK, then - I'll stay with my "Harmony wrecked it" theory. She was mad, so she took it when she backed out of Spike's crypt saying that he'd never see her ass again. She took it, drove to L.A., where she ultimately wrecked it.
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Post by polly on Sept 4, 2007 19:43:26 GMT -5
thank you,thank you, THANK YOU! your reviews always put a new light on the episodes!and you've just made bargaining part two 10 times more interesting to me! thanks again! p.s. can't wait for afterlife
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Sept 4, 2007 20:50:14 GMT -5
That's a good point, I think the last time we saw it was in the episode "Crush" when Spike and Buffy go on a stake-out/date. Maybe Spike chose the motorcycle over the De Soto because it's more fuel efficient. Yah, I'm sure that's the reason. ;D Ah, yes! Crush!OK, then - I'll stay with my "Harmony wrecked it" theory. She was mad, so she took it when she backed out of Spike's crypt saying that he'd never see her ass again. She took it, drove to L.A., where she ultimately wrecked it. Actually, that makes a lot of sense.
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Post by Lola m on Sept 4, 2007 22:13:23 GMT -5
Excellent job, once again, Spring!
And talk about destiny or something. I ended up reading your analysis on Monday and then what was on FX for that morning's Buffy episode? Bargaining Part 2, of course. The timing was too perfect to not take advantage of it and watch the DVRd ep and then re-read your article.
I liked the examples you give of foreshadowing of the future. In particular, how paired Willow and Xander are - how he is the one who helps her through the woods, but is also just as lost (and for some of the same reasons) as Buffy. I'd never made that connection to the other end of the season. And I'd certainly seen the connection of Buffy's trip to the top of the tower looking back to the end of the previous season and forward to the end of this looking forward to the end of this one (Dawn and her climbing out of the grave). But I've never thought of connecting the crumbling tower to a house that will tumble down mid-season. Excellent linking of images and ideas!
Also, I appreciate how you showed me the mirroring of the biker headlights, Tara's tinkerbell light and Spike's motorcycle light. It made me think of other connections between Tara and Spike and where they will be by the end of the season. Tara, in some ways, like she's missing from the journey thru the woods. Incorporeal, if only Willow would follow her light again, but instead Willow gets lost in her pain, lost in the wood again. (Which, I know, is stretching the whole analogy thing and is phrased in a really smarmy way, but y'all can sort of follow my logic, yes?) And Spike will ride off on that same bike - we presume - on his own rather important trip at the end of the ep.
And finally, so important that you point out the examples of self absorption. That's where all the s'coobies get lost in the next year. Wandering off in their own issues and worries and losing track of each other. I too very much love season 6 - trauma and all. It's why I love the season. And not just to wallow in the pretty pretty angst (although, yes, I do love that), but for the way it shows the whole gang going through changes and making mistakes and trying again and . . . well, just muddling through, like we all do!
Brava, Spring!
P.S. Damn, Spike looks good in this ep! I mean . . . damn!
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