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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 5, 2007 16:36:32 GMT -5
thank you,thank you, THANK YOU! your reviews always put a new light on the episodes!and you've just made bargaining part two 10 times more interesting to me! thanks again! p.s. can't wait for afterlife Thanks, polly! I appreciate you taking the time to let me know about your appreciation! I hope to do a review of Afterlife sometime before the end of Sep.
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 5, 2007 16:41:21 GMT -5
Excellent job, once again, Spring! And talk about destiny or something. I ended up reading your analysis on Monday and then what was on FX for that morning's Buffy episode? Bargaining Part 2, of course. The timing was too perfect to not take advantage of it and watch the DVRd ep and then re-read your article. I liked the examples you give of foreshadowing of the future. In particular, how paired Willow and Xander are - how he is the one who helps her through the woods, but is also just as lost (and for some of the same reasons) as Buffy. I'd never made that connection to the other end of the season. And I'd certainly seen the connection of Buffy's trip to the top of the tower looking back to the end of the previous season and forward to the end of this looking forward to the end of this one (Dawn and her climbing out of the grave). But I've never thought of connecting the crumbling tower to a house that will tumble down mid-season. Excellent linking of images and ideas! Also, I appreciate how you showed me the mirroring of the biker headlights, Tara's tinkerbell light and Spike's motorcycle light. It made me think of other connections between Tara and Spike and where they will be by the end of the season. Lots of parallels between Willow & Tara, and Buffy & Spike, are drawn throughout the Season. Yes- it's interesting how the light Tara provides is "incorporeal," whereas Spike's could not be more "corporeal." Yes, I must agree - Spike pretty! Thanks for the thoughtful feedback, Lola. Glad you enjoyed the review.
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Post by leftylady on Sept 7, 2007 18:08:38 GMT -5
First I have to say: new review! Spring, thanks so much. It was worth the wait. I can always count on your putting an episode in just the right perspective to help us see the light, the light that Spike is aiming for. We're ready, helmets on, to be taken for the ride. For those who mentioned 9/11, yes, it is easy to forget the context of the original airing. How amazing the coincidence of ME writing / filming a collapsing tower weeks before it becomes a part of RL, ... our RL. It's important in looking at these Season 6 episodes now to remember the real emotional trauma the entire country was suffering where they first aired ... the continuous news programming (even looping news programming) that engrained the images of the WTC and the recovery mission into viewers for days, weeks. A friend confided that as painful as the news filming was to watch it was also almost so hypnotic she couldn't stop herself from watching. And then Buffy rose from her grave into a world in flames ("Is this hell?"). We and Buffy were one. leftylady
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Post by SpringSummers on Sept 8, 2007 9:35:35 GMT -5
First I have to say: new review! Spring, thanks so much. It was worth the wait. I can always count on your putting an episode in just the right perspective to help us see the light, the light that Spike is aiming for. We're ready, helmets on, to be taken for the ride. For those who mentioned 9/11, yes, it is easy to forget the context of the original airing. How amazing the coincidence of ME writing / filming a collapsing tower weeks before it becomes a part of RL, ... our RL. It's important in looking at these Season 6 episodes now to remember the real emotional trauma the entire country was suffering where they first aired ... the continuous news programming (even looping news programming) that engrained the images of the WTC and the recovery mission into viewers for days, weeks. A friend confided that as painful as the news filming was to watch it was also almost so hypnotic she couldn't stop herself from watching. And then Buffy rose from her grave into a world in flames ("Is this hell?"). We and Buffy were one. leftylady Thanks for the feedback, lefty, and for the interesting thoughts about the coincidental but powerful juxtaposition of the 9/11 events with the events on BtVS. Buffy's remark, "Is this hell?" does put it in a nutshell.
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Post by Kate (K8) on Jan 14, 2008 6:21:48 GMT -5
This is a bit of a late post but I just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed reading your analysis.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jan 20, 2008 14:06:50 GMT -5
This is a bit of a late post but I just wanted to let you know that I enjoyed reading your analysis. Late is a lot better than never, k8! Thanks. Am having a very hard time getting going on doing more, though I want to. Life is keeping me extraordinarly challenged!
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 24, 2008 15:58:19 GMT -5
Hey, Spring! I don't want to take anything away from your review, which was up to your usual excellent standards, but my problem with s6 is that while making the transition from child to adult can be and frequently is scary, painful, and confusing at times, it can also be a time of great excitement and unexpected discoveries...like, for instance, the unexpected discovery of a vampire's latent humanity. Joss has said that s6 had to go where it did, but I can't help thinking that turning away from that darkness in s7 was a silent admission that maybe, just maybe, they did go a little too far after all. There's light at the end of the s6 tunnel, no doubt, but Buffy as an agent of misogyny (and make no mistake, she will become one as the season progresses) just doesn't work very well for me. Considering the 9/11 connection, Certain People used the attacks and the trauma that followed as an excuse to hijack this country and turn it away from the ideals on which it was founded. IMO, this is exactly what Joss did with BtVS, using Buffy's trauma as an excuse to turn her away from her ideals and her own better nature.
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Post by SpringSummers on Jul 25, 2008 15:37:27 GMT -5
Hey, Spring! I don't want to take anything away from your review, which was up to your usual excellent standards, but my problem with s6 is that while making the transition from child to adult can be and frequently is scary, painful, and confusing at times, it can also be a time of great excitement and unexpected discoveries...like, for instance, the unexpected discovery of a vampire's latent humanity. Joss has said that s6 had to go where it did, but I can't help thinking that turning away from that darkness in s7 was a silent admission that maybe, just maybe, they did go a little too far after all. There's light at the end of the s6 tunnel, no doubt, but Buffy as an agent of misogyny (and make no mistake, she will become one as the season progresses) just doesn't work very well for me. Considering the 9/11 connection, Certain People used the attacks and the trauma that followed as an excuse to hijack this country and turn it away from the ideals on which it was founded. IMO, this is exactly what Joss did with BtVS, using Buffy's trauma as an excuse to turn her away from her ideals and her own better nature. Di! So great to hear from you! I don't see Joss using Buffy's trauma as an excuse to turn her away from her ideals, so much as . . . Joss recognizing that extreme trauma, coupled with crushing, relentless responsibility, on a very young person, can very well result in . . . well, what it did result in, with Buffy - i.e., a period of numbness, a desperate need for comfort , a terrible desire to "feel again," and an acute longing to be someplace where she could escape it all - at least for a little while. Ultimately, she didn't turn away from her ideals. But she pushed them away temporarily, and only partially. Honestly, given the extent of the trauma Buffy suffered, and the load she had to carry immediately thereafter, I wouldn't have bought any other portrayal. Buffy's "coming of age" wasn't your typical mix, of what you so rightly describe as a mixed bag of the pain of letting go of childhood, combined with the excitement of coming to adulthood. I think a good analogy is looking at the way Spike got his soul, compared to the way Angel did. Angel was wholly unprepared, and wholly unwilling, to accept that soul. So when it was suddenly thrust upon him, the shock of it, and of dealing with what it meant (the guilt, the confusion, the pain), effectively traumatized and "disassociated" him - splitting him in half, turning him into someone who at first tried to "go back" and then, understanding that wasn't possible, for years, could barely lift his head up or leave the dark alleys. Spike, with the advantage of a loving mom, more adaptable nature, and the chip and Buffy-love while soulless, was both prepared and very willing to take on that soul. So it traumatized him, but not nearly to the extent that it did Angel. Buffy, when it comes to accepting adulthood, didn't "grow into it" the way Spike did his soul, or the way many of us do - in a sometimes painful, sometimes halting, never very pretty, but ultimately "normal" - manner. She had it thrust upon her. The trauma and pain were heavy and deep and her reaction was very very true to life, IMO. For which I will love Joss forever.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 31, 2008 16:03:44 GMT -5
While Buffy's reactions to her situation are not totally unrealistic, I still feel that BtVS slipped into melodrama in s6. The histrionics and handwringing seemed (and still seem) out of proportion to what is a natural part of life. Yes, some people get thrust into situations they're not ready for, and it's harder for them to cope, but to show Buffy as a victim and an agent of intolerance....well, that's just not what I'd signed on for. I have to say, I've lost a lot of respect for Joss over the last few years. Some of the comments he's made, the comix....The best I can say about him now is he's a visionary with blinders on.
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Post by LadyDi on Jul 31, 2008 16:09:27 GMT -5
Honoring Patti's memory with a slight bought of Patti-itis. One thing I forgot to mention. I'm curious why you think Marti would say she got letters if she had not. I didn't write any myself at the time, but it wouldn't surprise me at all that other fans had done so. There really was/is no way for Spike to make up for all the killing. Those people are still dead, regardless. So setting that aside, the idea of a vampire doing the right thing for the right reasons (honoring the memory of the woman he loves) is a pretty strong endorsement (IMO).
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 4, 2008 8:12:50 GMT -5
While Buffy's reactions to her situation are not totally unrealistic, I still feel that BtVS slipped into melodrama in s6. The histrionics and handwringing seemed (and still seem) out of proportion to what is a natural part of life. Yes, some people get thrust into situations they're not ready for, and it's harder for them to cope, but to show Buffy as a victim and an agent of intolerance....well, that's just not what I'd signed on for. I have to say, I've lost a lot of respect for Joss over the last few years. Some of the comments he's made, the comix....The best I can say about him now is he's a visionary with blinders on. I don't think Buffy WAS shown as a "victim and an agent of intolerance" so much as she was shown as a "flawed human who reacts in human ways." Mostly, I think the big difference between our views in that I found the portrayal of Buffy's reactions very realistic - right on target, and more than that - I thought she was shown as very strong in that she had her bumps but she overcame.
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Post by SpringSummers on Aug 4, 2008 8:14:36 GMT -5
Honoring Patti's memory with a slight bought of Patti-itis. One thing I forgot to mention. I'm curious why you think Marti would say she got letters if she had not. I didn't write any myself at the time, but it wouldn't surprise me at all that other fans had done so. I did not say that I didn't think Marti got letters. I don't know what you are addressing.
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Post by baunger1 on May 9, 2010 20:13:42 GMT -5
Hi Spring! I'm responding to your analyses of Part I and II, because I have only seen them as one episode and think of them that way.
Like you, season six is my favorite season, because of the depth and complexity of the themes it deals with. But, for the same reason, it is also the most difficult to watch, and created a great deal of upset and anxiety for me. I think that because the writers aimed so high thematically, when something felt wrong to me, it resonated that much more.
I think the season is encapsulated by the scene that begins with Spike watching the demon motorcycle gang causing mayhem. "Looks like fun. I'm just saying." Right -- he's just saying it, not doing it. He sees his own darkness, and that it causes him to be drawn to bad behavior, but consciously chooses not to engage in evil. And what does he do instead? Stands in the middle of the road, faces it head on, risks his life, and beats it.
So, light and dark in everyone -- it's what you do about it that matters. But here's my problem. Spike's already done a lot about it. He's chosen good for some time now, and done so even after Buffy's death, when he could expect no reward. Even if he's doing good in tribute to her memory, isn't that pretty close to doing good for it's own sake? And even if he does need a soul to be completely redeemed (which, as I've mentioned before, is something I struggle with, although I am now more accepting of the idea that he may), hasn't he gained enough self-insight, and progressed far enough, to want complete redemption and seek it, without the AR?
I think part of the problem in the season is that the writers wanted the viewers to continue to see Spike as evil, and therefore in need of a soul, but were actually portraying him as doing mostly good. It's one thing for Buffy, compelled to explore her darkness by connecting with Spike, to continue to see him as wholly evil. But we saw that he wasn't. So it was quite another thing for the writers to want the viewer to continue to see him that way. This is why one of my responses to initially viewing the AR was to feel that the writers were saying "Snap out of it! He's evil, see?" And I felt resentful of that. This problem -- that the writers' intent differed from the response of many viewers -- was exacerbated by the sympathy created for Spike due to Buffy's treatment of him.
I agree that Buffy is behaving as a result of devastating trauma. And her behavior as a trauma victim is portrayed realistically and credibly. However, that doesn't mean that her behavior to Spike isn't horrible, and it doesn't make her likable. Most people who engage in abusive behavior do so because they come from terrible circumstances not of their choosing -- deprivation, abuse, neglect, etc. But while this certainly explains the behavior and raises the issue of how best to address it (i.e., through treatment and with understanding versus punishment), it does not mean the behavior shouldn't engender anger or repugnance. Both the physical abuse, and the emotional abuse ( especially Spike being repeatedly told by the person he loved that all his efforts were fruitless, that no amount of change was enough, that he could never be good, or be loved) made me incredibly sympathetic to Spike, and distanced from Buffy.
Another problem is that, because their relationship is obviously unhealthy, I felt that the particular kind of sexual relationship they had (which I guess falls somewhere on the BDSM spectrum) was being judged as unhealthy or wrong. I think this was miscalculated, and was compounded by the fact that witchcraft -- previously used as a metaphor for Tara and Willow's sexual relationship -- was portrayed as a dangerous addiction. The writers clearly didn't mean to be condemning of the Willow-Tara relationship, but it was hard to ignore the parallels being drawn.
I don't want to go on ad nauseum, but I have a lot of thoughts about the season. I know it sounds as if I actually didn't like it, but as I said, I really do. I like it because it made me feel and think about these issues.
By the way, I noticed people had posted about the Spike bike versus the DeSoto. I miss that car too, but the motorcycle is perfect. Spike is heroism and virtue born of evil -- he's an actual hell's angel.
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Post by SpringSummers on May 10, 2010 8:58:52 GMT -5
Hi Spring! I'm responding to your analyses of Part I and II, because I have only seen them as one episode and think of them that way. Like you, season six is my favorite season, because of the depth and complexity of the themes it deals with. But, for the same reason, it is also the most difficult to watch, and created a great deal of upset and anxiety for me. I think that because the writers aimed so high thematically, when something felt wrong to me, it resonated that much more. I think the season is encapsulated by the scene that begins with Spike watching the demon motorcycle gang causing mayhem. "Looks like fun. I'm just saying." Right -- he's just saying it, not doing it. He sees his own darkness, and that it causes him to be drawn to bad behavior, but consciously chooses not to engage in evil. And what does he do instead? Stands in the middle of the road, faces it head on, risks his life, and beats it. So, light and dark in everyone -- it's what you do about it that matters. But here's my problem. Spike's already done a lot about it. He's chosen good for some time now, and done so even after Buffy's death, when he could expect no reward. Even if he's doing good in tribute to her memory, isn't that pretty close to doing good for it's own sake? And even if he does need a soul to be completely redeemed (which, as I've mentioned before, is something I struggle with, although I am now more accepting of the idea that he may), hasn't he gained enough self-insight, and progressed far enough, to want complete redemption and seek it, without the AR? My two cents: No, he hasn't gained near enough insight. Spike, from the beginning of S6 until the very end, still doesn't get that killing people is wrong. Doing good because the chip compels him not to do evil, and also in Buffy's memory and because he cares about Dawn, is a big deal for someone like Spike. I mean, the chip allowed him to take a break, but he could have used minions and continued to be evil. And he allowed himself to care about someone other than himself in caring about Buffy and Dawn. But that's as far as he gets. And really, we have no indication he'll ever get any farther . . . and IMO, that is a long, long way from "doing good for its own sake." We saw that Spike wasn't wholly evil anymore. The writers showed us that, and I don't agree that they wanted us to continue to see him as "wholly evil." But his relationship with Buffy had a darkside that he contributed to as well - he was obsessed with Buffy, and some of his methods of trying to win her and keep her were far from perfect. He dumped his own self-respect (and really, it's impossible to truly love and respect others if you don't love and respect yourself) in being willing to be/do anything Buffy wanted just to keep her by his side. He showed he was all about satisfying his obsession, rather than being all about "what was best for Buffy," when he basically tries to tell her she should dump her friends for him (in Dead Things), and makes other comments about "being all she has" and such. He's trying to isolate her - he's all about doing whatever he has to (whether it hurts him, whether or not its best for her). Compare this to how he acts in Season 7, when he begins to understand what real love is about. He's no longer, at all, about what he can get from her. He has some fits and starts, but basically, he's all about wanting her to have what is best for her, and wanting what is best for himself as well. The writers were "snapping Buffy & Spike out of it," I thought. For all her denials, subconsciously, Buffy had forgotten that Spike was a vampire. And in many ways, so had Spike. This snapped them both out of it. Sure, different fans, depending on how they were feeling, were going to feel different ways about this. Deliberately using exaggerations here, but fans who had become convinced Spike was now as harmless and loving as a puppy were going to feel betrayed . . . fans who thought he was still completely EVUUULLLL were going to feel "AHA!! He hasn't changed a bit!!" Both would be wrong, IMO. But the writers weren't, I don't think, trying to tell the fans anything. They were trying to get their characters (Buffy and Spike) to important realizations. Nothing excuses abuse. I think we're meant to try to understand it, not excuse it. I mean, so many shows just don't go there - don't allow their hero to behave realistically and such. That is why I loved Joss for this potrayal. Here's the part I don't understand:Spike's horrible, horrible evil deeds in the past, and his complete lack of remorse for them, and his continued lack of understanding that killing is wrong, are completely forgiveable and forgettable? That can be ignored? He gets sympathy? But Buffy being bitchy to Spike for a few months (due to her extreme trauma) is infuriating and repugnant? No sympathy for Buffy? I just don't get that. I just don't. I feel a lot of sympathy for both. Spike is trying, despite his soullessness and the demon inside. I can have some sympathy for him because I can understand WHY he's unable to understand his crimes or be remorseful for them. Does that mean I don't find them repugnant? No. Does that mean I think he's great boyfriend material, c'mon Buffy, marry him? No. Buffy is trying, despite the trauma and overload of responsibility. I can have some sympathy for her, despite the bitchy. Does that mean I don't think the bitchy behavior is wrong? No. Does that I mean I think she's a great girlfriend to Spike. No. I don't get the tons o' sympathy for Spike, and none for Buffy. I can't wrap my head around it. B&S's relationship was portrayed as having some good and some bad. Ultimately, it saved them both . . . but some things had to change. They had to go from using each other (yep, to me, they were mutually abusive and using each other) to loving each other - which they do in S7. Love the "Hell's Angel" catch there. Perfect - he is an "actual" Hell's angel.
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Post by baunger1 on May 10, 2010 21:14:43 GMT -5
Hi Spring! I'm responding to your analyses of Part I and II, because I have only seen them as one episode and think of them that way. Like you, season six is my favorite season, because of the depth and complexity of the themes it deals with. But, for the same reason, it is also the most difficult to watch, and created a great deal of upset and anxiety for me. I think that because the writers aimed so high thematically, when something felt wrong to me, it resonated that much more. I think the season is encapsulated by the scene that begins with Spike watching the demon motorcycle gang causing mayhem. "Looks like fun. I'm just saying." Right -- he's just saying it, not doing it. He sees his own darkness, and that it causes him to be drawn to bad behavior, but consciously chooses not to engage in evil. And what does he do instead? Stands in the middle of the road, faces it head on, risks his life, and beats it. So, light and dark in everyone -- it's what you do about it that matters. But here's my problem. Spike's already done a lot about it. He's chosen good for some time now, and done so even after Buffy's death, when he could expect no reward. Even if he's doing good in tribute to her memory, isn't that pretty close to doing good for it's own sake? And even if he does need a soul to be completely redeemed (which, as I've mentioned before, is something I struggle with, although I am now more accepting of the idea that he may), hasn't he gained enough self-insight, and progressed far enough, to want complete redemption and seek it, without the AR? My two cents: No, he hasn't gained near enough insight. Spike, from the beginning of S6 until the very end, still doesn't get that killing people is wrong. Doing good because the chip compels him not to do evil, and also in Buffy's memory and because he cares about Dawn, is a big deal for someone like Spike. I mean, the chip allowed him to take a break, but he could have used minions and continued to be evil. And he allowed himself to care about someone other than himself in caring about Buffy and Dawn. But that's as far as he gets. And really, we have no indication he'll ever get any farther . . . and IMO, that is a long, long way from "doing good for its own sake." I think my brain understands this but my heart doesn't feel it.
We saw that Spike wasn't wholly evil anymore. The writers showed us that, and I don't agree that they wanted us to continue to see him as "wholly evil." But his relationship with Buffy had a darkside that he contributed to as well - he was obsessed with Buffy, and some of his methods of trying to win her and keep her were far from perfect. He dumped his own self-respect (and really, it's impossible to truly love and respect others if you don't love and respect yourself) in being willing to be/do anything Buffy wanted just to keep her by his side. He showed he was all about satisfying his obsession, rather than being all about "what was best for Buffy," when he basically tries to tell her she should dump her friends for him (in Dead Things), and makes other comments about "being all she has" and such. He's trying to isolate her - he's all about doing whatever he has to (whether it hurts him, whether or not its best for her). Compare this to how he acts in Season 7, when he begins to understand what real love is about. He's no longer, at all, about what he can get from her. He has some fits and starts, but basically, he's all about wanting her to have what is best for her, and wanting what is best for himself as well. Agreed that the relationship is completely unhealthy for both of them, but I really see Buffy as being more the abuser -- of both him and herself. His attempts to isolate her and play into her own self-loathing in "Dead Things" are certainly techniques typically used by the abuser in a relationship, but I felt that his wanting to keep her alone with him in the dark was a last-ditch effort to hold on to her when she refused to bring their relationship into the light. Definitely not good behavior by him, though. Yes, they each come to understand love in an unselfish way in Season 7, especially Spike, and it's quite beautiful. Although this is now making me think more about the "badness" of their relationship being equated somehow with kinky sex, and the "goodness" being equated with no sex.
The writers were "snapping Buffy & Spike out of it," I thought. For all her denials, subconsciously, Buffy had forgotten that Spike was a vampire. And in many ways, so had Spike. This snapped them both out of it. Sure, different fans, depending on how they were feeling, were going to feel different ways about this. Deliberately using exaggerations here, but fans who had become convinced Spike was now as harmless and loving as a puppy were going to feel betrayed . . . fans who thought he was still completely EVUUULLLL were going to feel "AHA!! He hasn't changed a bit!!" Both would be wrong, IMO. But the writers weren't, I don't think, trying to tell the fans anything. They were trying to get their characters (Buffy and Spike) to important realizations. I'm going to have to think more about this after I watch the episode again (which I'm sort of dreading).
Nothing excuses abuse. I think we're meant to try to understand it, not excuse it. I mean, so many shows just don't go there - don't allow their hero to behave realistically and such. That is why I loved Joss for this potrayal. Here's the part I don't understand:Spike's horrible, horrible evil deeds in the past, and his complete lack of remorse for them, and his continued lack of understanding that killing is wrong, are completely forgiveable and forgettable? That can be ignored? He gets sympathy? But Buffy being bitchy to Spike for a few months (due to her extreme trauma) is infuriating and repugnant? No sympathy for Buffy? I just don't get that. I just don't. I feel a lot of sympathy for both. Spike is trying, despite his soullessness and the demon inside. I can have some sympathy for him because I can understand WHY he's unable to understand his crimes or be remorseful for them. Does that mean I don't find them repugnant? No. Does that mean I think he's great boyfriend material, c'mon Buffy, marry him? No. Buffy is trying, despite the trauma and overload of responsibility. I can have some sympathy for her, despite the bitchy. Does that mean I don't think the bitchy behavior is wrong? No. Does that I mean I think she's a great girlfriend to Spike. No. I don't get the tons o' sympathy for Spike, and none for Buffy. I can't wrap my head around it. I agree that it was very brave for the writers to show their heroine behaving very unpleasantly. It's part of what made the season so interesting. But I think she was more than just bitchy. She demeaned him in every way, undermined his progress, and beat him to a bloody pulp. So my response was to feel sympathy for the person who was being treated that way, more than for the person who was dishing out the treatment, even though she was clearly in crisis.
Thanks for responding so thoughtfully. I've highlighted my answers in red because I'm having trouble using the quote feature. Help?
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