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Post by baunger1 on May 11, 2010 7:31:02 GMT -5
I wanted to add one thing regarding reactions to Buffy's behavior. In our own lives, it can be an enormously difficult to deal with a loved one who, because of trauma, depression, addiction, etc., is behaving badly, lashing out, and isolating. Even if we understand where the behavior is coming from, and even if we are not judging the person, we can still feel angry at the behavior, and can have the predictable, and often intended, reaction of being alienated from that person. The challenge is to work through those feelings -- not by approving of or accepting the behavior, but by not withdrawing from the relationship. But it's often very, very hard to do. I think that Buffy's behavior created the same kind of challenge for the viewer. (I suppose another response people have to dealing with a loved one in this situation is to simply accept or ignore this person's actions -- and often to become the object of this person's anger or abuse -- out of a sense of loyalty, or love, or duty; this is more akin to what Spike does, and is obviously not healthy either.)
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Post by Karen on May 11, 2010 12:59:12 GMT -5
I wanted to add one thing regarding reactions to Buffy's behavior. In our own lives, it can be an enormously difficult to deal with a loved one who, because of trauma, depression, addiction, etc., is behaving badly, lashing out, and isolating. Even if we understand where the behavior is coming from, and even if we are not judging the person, we can still feel angry at the behavior, and can have the predictable, and often intended, reaction of being alienated from that person. The challenge is to work through those feelings -- not by approving of or accepting the behavior, but by not withdrawing from the relationship. But it's often very, very hard to do. I think that Buffy's behavior created the same kind of challenge for the viewer. (I suppose another response people have to dealing with a loved one in this situation is to simply accept or ignore this person's actions -- and often to become the object of this person's anger or abuse -- out of a sense of loyalty, or love, or duty; this is more akin to what Spike does, and is obviously not healthy either.) It is very hard to deal with a loved one who is dealing with their own demons by lashing out at their loved ones, as you say. My take on Buffy's abuse of Spike is that she is so angry with Spike to the point of beating him to a bloody pulp because he doesn't understand the guilt she is feeling over 'using' him to get over her pain - using him/being with him, without feeling love for him. She knows she is taking advantage of his love for her, and feels so much guilt over it that she tries to force Spike to hate her by abusing him and berating him. On the other side of the coin, you could say she also has huge feelings for Spike that she doesn't understand. He has no soul - so how can she possibly have feelings for him? Doesn't that go against everything a Slayer is supposed to stand for? She doesn't tell her friends about Spike because she is ashamed of both using Spike and of her actual feelings for him. Buffy is very damaged. I have sympathy and understanding for her actions, not because she is damaged, but because she is a human being in a very dark place in her life. When she was beating up Spike, it was like she was beating up herself. Similar to when Faith in Buffy beat up 'herself' in Who are You? FAITH: (enraged, with tears in her eyes) SHUT UP! Do you think I'm afraid of you!?
(screaming at Buffy in her own body as she beats her)
FAITH: You're nothing! Disgusting! Murderous bitch! You're nothing! You're disgusting! Buffy/Spike...Spike represents her dark side. BUFFY: I have to do this. Just let me go. SPIKE: I can't. I love you.
BUFFY: No, you don't.
SPIKE: You think I haven't tried not to?
BUFFY: (punches him) Try harder.
SPIKE: You are not throwing your life away over this.
BUFFY: It's not your choice.
SPIKE: Why are you doing this to yourself?
BUFFY: A girl is dead because of me.
SPIKE: And how many people are alive because of you? How many have you saved? One dead girl doesn't tip the scale.
BUFFY: That's all it is to you, isn't it? Just another body!
SPIKE: (sighing) Buffy- (she attacks him)
BUFFY: You can't understand why this is killing me, can you?
SPIKE: Why don't you explain it? (she keeps hitting)
SPIKE: Come on, that's it, put it on me. Put it all on me. (She kicks him) That's my girl.
BUFFY: (yelling) I am not your girl! (knocks him to the ground, keeps pounding him, he takes it) You don't ... have a soul! There is nothing good or clean in you. You are dead inside! You can't feel anything real! I could never ... be your girl!
SPIKE: (face swollen, voice slurred) You always hurt ... the one you love, pet. Buffy? (she gets up & walks off, Spike tries to stop her but can't) Buffy...
Buffy is also angry that Spike can't understand (no soul) why Buffy is upset because she thinks a girl died because of her. She just can't bring herself to get over the fact that she might actually love a soulless creature - although so very pretty. She also feels dead inside herself. Wants to feel something good and clean again. And she does in Season 7. |
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Post by Karen on May 11, 2010 12:59:49 GMT -5
Loving the discussion!
BtVS rocks!
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Post by baunger1 on May 12, 2010 6:40:39 GMT -5
I wanted to add one thing regarding reactions to Buffy's behavior. In our own lives, it can be an enormously difficult to deal with a loved one who, because of trauma, depression, addiction, etc., is behaving badly, lashing out, and isolating. Even if we understand where the behavior is coming from, and even if we are not judging the person, we can still feel angry at the behavior, and can have the predictable, and often intended, reaction of being alienated from that person. The challenge is to work through those feelings -- not by approving of or accepting the behavior, but by not withdrawing from the relationship. But it's often very, very hard to do. I think that Buffy's behavior created the same kind of challenge for the viewer. (I suppose another response people have to dealing with a loved one in this situation is to simply accept or ignore this person's actions -- and often to become the object of this person's anger or abuse -- out of a sense of loyalty, or love, or duty; this is more akin to what Spike does, and is obviously not healthy either.) It is very hard to deal with a loved one who is dealing with their own demons by lashing out at their loved ones, as you say. My take on Buffy's abuse of Spike is that she is so angry with Spike to the point of beating him to a bloody pulp because he doesn't understand the guilt she is feeling over 'using' him to get over her pain - using him/being with him, without feeling love for him. She knows she is taking advantage of his love for her, and feels so much guilt over it that she tries to force Spike to hate her by abusing him and berating him. On the other side of the coin, you could say she also has huge feelings for Spike that she doesn't understand. He has no soul - so how can she possibly have feelings for him? Doesn't that go against everything a Slayer is supposed to stand for? She doesn't tell her friends about Spike because she is ashamed of both using Spike and of her actual feelings for him. Buffy is very damaged. I have sympathy and understanding for her actions, not because she is damaged, but because she is a human being in a very dark place in her life. When she was beating up Spike, it was like she was beating up herself. Similar to when Faith in Buffy beat up 'herself' in Who are You? FAITH: (enraged, with tears in her eyes) SHUT UP! Do you think I'm afraid of you!?
(screaming at Buffy in her own body as she beats her)
FAITH: You're nothing! Disgusting! Murderous bitch! You're nothing! You're disgusting! Buffy/Spike...Spike represents her dark side. BUFFY: I have to do this. Just let me go. SPIKE: I can't. I love you.
BUFFY: No, you don't.
SPIKE: You think I haven't tried not to?
BUFFY: (punches him) Try harder.
SPIKE: You are not throwing your life away over this.
BUFFY: It's not your choice.
SPIKE: Why are you doing this to yourself?
BUFFY: A girl is dead because of me.
SPIKE: And how many people are alive because of you? How many have you saved? One dead girl doesn't tip the scale.
BUFFY: That's all it is to you, isn't it? Just another body!
SPIKE: (sighing) Buffy- (she attacks him)
BUFFY: You can't understand why this is killing me, can you?
SPIKE: Why don't you explain it? (she keeps hitting)
SPIKE: Come on, that's it, put it on me. Put it all on me. (She kicks him) That's my girl.
BUFFY: (yelling) I am not your girl! (knocks him to the ground, keeps pounding him, he takes it) You don't ... have a soul! There is nothing good or clean in you. You are dead inside! You can't feel anything real! I could never ... be your girl!
SPIKE: (face swollen, voice slurred) You always hurt ... the one you love, pet. Buffy? (she gets up & walks off, Spike tries to stop her but can't) Buffy...
Buffy is also angry that Spike can't understand (no soul) why Buffy is upset because she thinks a girl died because of her. She just can't bring herself to get over the fact that she might actually love a soulless creature - although so very pretty. She also feels dead inside herself. Wants to feel something good and clean again. And she does in Season 7. I agree with all of the above. You point out that one of the reasons Buffy lashes out is, not just that she's angry at Spike for failing to understand that killing is wrong, but because she's angry that she might love, or at least care for, someone who doesn't understand that killing is wrong. I hadn't thought about it in that way, but I think it's very true . Also, I think Buffy's shame that, as the Slayer, she has feelings for a vampire, goes to the heart of one of her long-standing issues: her feeling that she is nothing but a killer. If a soul-less vampire is capable of good, and capable of inspiring her love, does that potential exist in all vampires? And if so, does that undermine the morality of her mission? She fights acknowledging Spike's goodness so as not to have to confront this troubling question. |
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Post by Michelle on May 12, 2010 10:48:29 GMT -5
It is very hard to deal with a loved one who is dealing with their own demons by lashing out at their loved ones, as you say. My take on Buffy's abuse of Spike is that she is so angry with Spike to the point of beating him to a bloody pulp because he doesn't understand the guilt she is feeling over 'using' him to get over her pain - using him/being with him, without feeling love for him. She knows she is taking advantage of his love for her, and feels so much guilt over it that she tries to force Spike to hate her by abusing him and berating him. On the other side of the coin, you could say she also has huge feelings for Spike that she doesn't understand. He has no soul - so how can she possibly have feelings for him? Doesn't that go against everything a Slayer is supposed to stand for? She doesn't tell her friends about Spike because she is ashamed of both using Spike and of her actual feelings for him. Buffy is very damaged. I have sympathy and understanding for her actions, not because she is damaged, but because she is a human being in a very dark place in her life. When she was beating up Spike, it was like she was beating up herself. Similar to when Faith in Buffy beat up 'herself' in Who are You? FAITH: (enraged, with tears in her eyes) SHUT UP! Do you think I'm afraid of you!?
(screaming at Buffy in her own body as she beats her)
FAITH: You're nothing! Disgusting! Murderous bitch! You're nothing! You're disgusting! Buffy/Spike...Spike represents her dark side. BUFFY: I have to do this. Just let me go. SPIKE: I can't. I love you.
BUFFY: No, you don't.
SPIKE: You think I haven't tried not to?
BUFFY: (punches him) Try harder.
SPIKE: You are not throwing your life away over this.
BUFFY: It's not your choice.
SPIKE: Why are you doing this to yourself?
BUFFY: A girl is dead because of me.
SPIKE: And how many people are alive because of you? How many have you saved? One dead girl doesn't tip the scale.
BUFFY: That's all it is to you, isn't it? Just another body!
SPIKE: (sighing) Buffy- (she attacks him)
BUFFY: You can't understand why this is killing me, can you?
SPIKE: Why don't you explain it? (she keeps hitting)
SPIKE: Come on, that's it, put it on me. Put it all on me. (She kicks him) That's my girl.
BUFFY: (yelling) I am not your girl! (knocks him to the ground, keeps pounding him, he takes it) You don't ... have a soul! There is nothing good or clean in you. You are dead inside! You can't feel anything real! I could never ... be your girl!
SPIKE: (face swollen, voice slurred) You always hurt ... the one you love, pet. Buffy? (she gets up & walks off, Spike tries to stop her but can't) Buffy...
Buffy is also angry that Spike can't understand (no soul) why Buffy is upset because she thinks a girl died because of her. She just can't bring herself to get over the fact that she might actually love a soulless creature - although so very pretty. She also feels dead inside herself. Wants to feel something good and clean again. And she does in Season 7. I agree with all of the above. You point out that one of the reasons Buffy lashes out is, not just that she's angry at Spike for failing to understand that killing is wrong, but because she's angry that she might love, or at least care for, someone who doesn't understand that killing is wrong. I hadn't thought about it in that way, but I think it's very true . Also, I think Buffy's shame that, as the Slayer, she has feelings for a vampire, goes to the heart of one of her long-standing issues: her feeling that she is nothing but a killer. If a soul-less vampire is capable of good, and capable of inspiring her love, does that potential exist in all vampires? And if so, does that undermine the morality of her mission? She fights acknowledging Spike's goodness so as not to have to confront this troubling question. Oooh, I think you hit on the root of her issues! Buffy accepted her mission as black & white, good vs. evil when it was handed over to her as a young teen. Now that she's reaching adulthood, she is grappling with the fact that it's just not that simple. When she was with Angel, she knew he was a vampire, but told herself that because he had a soul, he wasn't bad, and was able to compartmentalize the evil he had done prior. But Spike throws a wrench in her carefully constructed vision: no longer are things black & white, but many, many shades of gray. And if Spike is capable of good, that means that she, Buffy, is capable of evil. She is stuck in a whirlwind of conflict with herself, both being attracted to and repelled by what Spike represents. Her go-to reaction is to lash out, and heap abuse on him. And as Karen so astutely pointed out, Spike welcomes it. ("Come on, that's it, put it on me. Put it all on me.") It's definitely a give and take, while upsetting for us to watch, is a two-way (dysfunctional) relationship. Spike needed to be the victim in that relationship--it served some function in his development. Possibly because he did feel some remorse for the evil he inflicted on others, and needed Buffy (someone he placed on a pedestal) to dole out the punishment. That's just one theory. |
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