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Post by RustyGoode on Oct 8, 2003 23:56:42 GMT -5
I'm sure it wasn't James C. Leary, but he reminded me of Clem. That's what I thought, but I'm usually wrong. It did sound alot like Clem.
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Post by Rob on Oct 9, 2003 0:26:31 GMT -5
I choose to believe that the entire Gang is in Europe along with Buffy, even though Spike obviously wouldn't care where Willow, Xander and Giles are. Especially Giles, of course. Was anyone else expecting something rather snarky when Fred mentioned Wesley's Watcher training? 'Cause I was. Overall, loved the Spike/Angel dialogue. They were both fabulously funny. I really hope Wesley is given something substantial to do soon...but if they don't, Alexis can give Nick Brendon a call. He can relate to a greatly loved character - one who was a major reason the show got off the ground in the first place - being pushed aside. One would think world saveage should automatically give a guy a Go Directly To Heaven Pass. Spike has played a major role in what, three separate Apocalypse preventions? Sheesh. Heaven sure is a tough room. I like the idea of Spike voluntarily retrieving his soul being a possible wrench in Wolfram and Hart's plans. They didn't expect that kind of nobility out of a vampire...and neither did Angel, whose jealousy is patently obvious. I also like the way they're utilizing Spike in a similar way to Cordy. Someone has to state the obvious without worrying too much about offending anyone. In Buffy's early years, that was Xander. In Angel's early years it was Cordy. In later BTVS, Spike and Xander sort of did it together. In this later period of Angel...it's clearly Spike alone portraying the voice of reason. Marsters does it very well. I don't believe that Spike ever had any damn intention of going along with the necromancer guy's plan. That would involve consorting with someone who puts demons into human form, cloaking them from sight. Spike will not do this... because it's WRONG. At the moment, he appears to be the moral compass of Angel...the outside observer who speaks for and represents the fans, in a way. He says what we're all thinking: this Wolfram and Hart thing was a very bad idea...mainly because it was selfishly motivated (at least on the parts of Angel and Gunn). Spike doesn't know that part yet...but methinks he will find out and react accordingly at some point. Where was Eve? She's a little hottie, you know. Who wouldn't love to watch Lilah and Spike go a few verbal rounds? Damn, that'd be fun. Here's hoping they do it. Lastly, I'm struck by how different the show has really become. Closest comparison I can make is the radical departure between Seasons 5 and 6 of BTVS. The show is making those kinds of sweeping changes in tone...but unlike the dark and depressing elements that made Season 6 a tough pill to swallow initially (I admire it greatly now), this feels like a badly-needed breath of fresh air. Of course, I didn't care for Connor, and I positively adore Spike...so I could be biased.
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 9, 2003 0:28:29 GMT -5
OH! You reminded me of one of the most wonderful lines! When Angel is furious because he spent 100 years trying to get over the guilt, and Spike spent 3 weeks in a basement and was fine! That was just terrific! And it also tells us that Buffy must have later told Angel much more about Spike than she did the night of the cookie dough speech and I love that idea... Buffy et al come to LA, rest and recuperate while passports are being issued...Buffy tells Angel what Spike has meant to her, how he suffered, why he got his soul...and then she leaves him and goes to Europe...sweet! Oh boy, Angel must just be SEETHING with mingled jealousy and guilt where Spike is concerned. Angel loved Buffy, lost his soul because of one night of having sex with her, went on a stalking/killing spree that tore Buffy apart emotionally. Spike had sex with Buffy for weeks without a soul, traipsed over to Africa and ACQUIRED a soul for love of Buffy, then returned to her to become her essential comrade, confidant and champion. Angel has just GOT to be doing some major emotional head-banging over it. This season could be a lot of fun. I hope there's a Season 6! GAIL
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 9, 2003 0:37:46 GMT -5
I choose to believe that the entire Gang is in Europe along with Buffy, even though Spike obviously wouldn't care where Willow, Xander and Giles are. Especially Giles, of course. Was anyone else expecting something rather snarky when Fred mentioned Wesley's Watcher training? 'Cause I was. Overall, loved the Spike/Angel dialogue. They were both fabulously funny. I really hope Wesley is given something substantial to do soon...but if they don't, Alexis can give Nick Brendon a call. He can relate to a greatly loved character - one who was a major reason the show got off the ground in the first place - being pushed aside. One would think world saveage should automatically give a guy a Go Directly To Heaven Pass. Spike has played a major role in what, three separate Apocalypse preventions? Sheesh. Heaven sure is a tough room. I like the idea of Spike voluntarily retrieving his soul being a possible wrench in Wolfram and Hart's plans. They didn't expect that kind of nobility out of a vampire...and neither did Angel, whose jealousy is patently obvious. I also like the way they're utilizing Spike in a similar way to Cordy. Someone has to state the obvious without worrying too much about offending anyone. In Buffy's early years, that was Xander. In Angel's early years it was Cordy. In later BTVS, Spike and Xander sort of did it together. In this later period of Angel...it's clearly Spike alone portraying the voice of reason. Marsters does it very well. I don't believe that Spike ever had any damn intention of going along with the necromancer guy's plan. That would involve consorting with someone who puts demons into human form, cloaking them from sight. Spike will not do this... because it's WRONG. At the moment, he appears to be the moral compass of Angel...the outside observer who speaks for and represents the fans, in a way. He says what we're all thinking: this Wolfram and Hart thing was a very bad idea...mainly because it was selfishly motivated (at least on the parts of Angel and Gunn). Spike doesn't know that part yet...but methinks he will find out and react accordingly at some point. Where was Eve? She's a little hottie, you know. Who wouldn't love to watch Lilah and Spike go a few verbal rounds? Damn, that'd be fun. Here's hoping they do it. Lastly, I'm struck by how different the show has really become. Closest comparison I can make is the radical departure between Seasons 5 and 6 of BTVS. The show is making those kinds of sweeping changes in tone...but unlike the dark and depressing elements that made Season 6 a tough pill to swallow initially (I admire it greatly now), this feels like a badly-needed breath of fresh air. Of course, I didn't care for Connor, and I positively adore Spike...so I could be biased. Souled Angel suffered for a far longer period than did Souled Spike; but Spike accomplished a lot more for Good before he got the soul, and spent far less time moping after he got it (which could be attributed to Buffy's intervention, physically removing him from the school basement and inspiring him to pull himself out of the desperation, guilt, and First-induced craziness).
Maybe Heaven's gatekeepers figured Spike was still too human and selfish in his desires to ascend to Heaven, though I would disagree with them.
Agree that joining Wolfram & Hart was a BAD idea; but I can understand why the Fang Gang gave in, and forgive them, as long as they don't stay there permanently. And it's an interesting change. But they will all be corrupted if they stay there. Note that I don't believe that ALL large businesses/corporations/law firms are agencies of Evil, but W&H sure the heck is, and is permeated with it.[glow=teal,2,300]Gail ;D[/glow]
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2003 1:03:07 GMT -5
Yes, I'd agree with that...Spike makes this fake plan with the necromancer, comes back to tell the FG, overhears and realizes that they have a plan to 'release' him...decides that perhaps that's all there is for him - his only hope for peace...goes to Angel, they have that conversation, then Spike tells Angel the details of the 'plot'....and they decide to fake Hainsley out... Now...why would they know it would work....because...because oh! Because the other demons Hainsley controlled WANTED to be placed into the dead bodies...they were paying for the privilege, not resisting at all. Spike resisted. That's it! Geez. Tried but cannot sleep tonight, I wonder if this is because my son is out of the hospital, but has moved in with friends and I was not the one he called to pick him up? But, but . . . I am his mommy! ANYHOW, I am so glad he is doing so well, but it is so hard not to worry. HEY- I loved the episode, and Patti, I'm with you all the way on what happened between Angel and Spike and the necromancer-guy. Loved how Spike knew right away that Angel must have made a deal with the devil. I liked the potential for a decent relationship (underneath it all) for the two of them, though they'll always be swiping at each other. Loads and loads of interesting things going on in the episode. Spike looked great. And he was snarky, but the soul still showed through. He is good now, not evil, and you can tell that. James was just great with the subtleties of portraying a Spike who is confused and distracted and to a certain extent, sad - but also still enough his old self to love to jab at Angel. Angel, the original Mr ClosedMouthed, and his comment about Spike not being one to share (Spike is a regular gusher of information!); Angel accidentally sending those big ugly demon clients the same message Hainsely sent him by killing the messenger; Spike feeling "terrified," Harmony getting Spike to pause for half-a-mo' . . . Ah, haven't had time to process it all, but good stuff, with lots of promise. Did I mention Spike looked great?
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2003 1:05:43 GMT -5
He's grown up now, yes. All soul having and all...got his mom issues worked out...he's quite a catch now in fact. As soon as that incorporeal thing gets resolved. And I just had this awful thought....What if they don't resolvei it? It would be just like Joss to have Angel unable to ...you know...cause of the curse, and Spike unable to ...you know...cause he's not corporeal! Ok, that was just nighmarish...I'm sure that's not going to happen. Cause then we could never have cool fights with both vampires flipping people around, and JM would never sign a contract where he couldn't get in some good fighting. I'm not spoiled past this ep, so I this is just me guessing, but I'd say NO WAY Spike is staying incorporeal for good. Too big a waste of his . . . Spike-ness.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2003 1:08:56 GMT -5
Forgot to mention another reason why Angel resents Spike so thoroughly - Spike is a walking talking piece of Angel's guilty past. William the Bloody would never have committed a single atrocity if Angelus hadn't sired Drusilla. Spike could also be a stinging connection to the far stronger guilt that Angel feels over what Angelus did to Drusilla. [glow=teal,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Oh, definitely. Spike makes Angel feel guilty on sight.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2003 1:14:17 GMT -5
Thank you makd! But...I disagree that all Spike got was 'snub the spike, or that the FG was planning to damn him to hell. It seemed apparent to me that all of them were interested in who he was, and had not been told anything that would make them think he should be given any slack. that was part of the comedy for me - that Angel was so human about not giving Spike credit. Kinda like when Dawn told Joyce that Buffy 'helped' fix her breakfast. Also, in that scene Spike overheard, it seemed to me they all believed that it would be horrible for Spike to have to be chained to that place incorporeal (love that word) and useless...and that they believed they would be sending him to his rest - to peace, not to hell. None of them knew he was 'flickering' back and forth into and out of the hellmouth, until he told Fred. JM did a great job in that scene (and the one with Fred) of conveying his lonliness and apartness, didn't he? I - funny, but I had been watching and thinking...James seems distant from his lines tonight...they are funny, but he actually does seem 'ghostly'....and I looked closely to see if he and Angel actually filmed those scenes together or were they 'cut' to look like it? There was a real distance. and I worried a bit, because James has always been 'on' on the screen....had that 'life' in him. (Which, ok, maybe that's exactly why he seemed distant - to convey that) but in the scene in the bedroom, and in the scene with Fred - that was James's magic as I remembered it. I might have to replay that last scene many times to be sure of course... Patti - we are definitely seeing the workings of the ep the same way. I agree on why the "i love you" was left out, how the Spike-plan was worked out, and I didn't think the bunch was snubbing Spike or wanting to send him to hell. I think part of the . . . strange distance of Spike has to do with that set - the colors - the darkness and grayness compared to the Buffy sets. I am going to miss Casa Summers. We are definitely not in Sunnydale anymore.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2003 1:24:49 GMT -5
OH! You reminded me of one of the most wonderful lines! When Angel is furious because he spent 100 years trying to get over the guilt, and Spike spent 3 weeks in a basement and was fine! That was just terrific! And it also tells us that Buffy must have later told Angel much more about Spike than she did the night of the cookie dough speech and I love that idea... Buffy et al come to LA, rest and recuperate while passports are being issued...Buffy tells Angel what Spike has meant to her, how he suffered, why he got his soul...and then she leaves him and goes to Europe...sweet! The "3 weeks/100 years" thing was great - lots of stuff going on there. Someone mentioned earlier that Angel was rational and Spike emotional, and this is true in a way, but it is not that simple. In many ways, SPIKE is "Mr Practical," - the one who likes to face reality and get straight to the point. He's the one who has to remind Angelus that they are supposed to KILL Slayers, not leave dead lovers in their friends beds, in Season 2 BtVS. Angel's the artist and the brooder and the dreamer - the one interested in heroics, etc. The 3weeks/100yrs thing helps bring that point home. We also get a subtle hint at how the fact that Angel's soul was a curse played into why it took 100 yrs vs "3 weeks" . . . Angel is totally unprepared for that soul in so many, many ways. By the time Spike gets his soul, he's been demon fighting for 3 years and in love with The Slayer, been good to Dawn, and his nature is just so much more . . . practical. There are pluses and minuses to the way each guy is put together - they could complement each other well if they let that happen.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 9, 2003 1:28:46 GMT -5
I choose to believe that the entire Gang is in Europe along with Buffy, even though Spike obviously wouldn't care where Willow, Xander and Giles are. Especially Giles, of course. Was anyone else expecting something rather snarky when Fred mentioned Wesley's Watcher training? 'Cause I was. Overall, loved the Spike/Angel dialogue. They were both fabulously funny. I really hope Wesley is given something substantial to do soon...but if they don't, Alexis can give Nick Brendon a call. He can relate to a greatly loved character - one who was a major reason the show got off the ground in the first place - being pushed aside. One would think world saveage should automatically give a guy a Go Directly To Heaven Pass. Spike has played a major role in what, three separate Apocalypse preventions? Sheesh. Heaven sure is a tough room. I like the idea of Spike voluntarily retrieving his soul being a possible wrench in Wolfram and Hart's plans. They didn't expect that kind of nobility out of a vampire...and neither did Angel, whose jealousy is patently obvious. I also like the way they're utilizing Spike in a similar way to Cordy. Someone has to state the obvious without worrying too much about offending anyone. In Buffy's early years, that was Xander. In Angel's early years it was Cordy. In later BTVS, Spike and Xander sort of did it together. In this later period of Angel...it's clearly Spike alone portraying the voice of reason. Marsters does it very well. I don't believe that Spike ever had any damn intention of going along with the necromancer guy's plan. That would involve consorting with someone who puts demons into human form, cloaking them from sight. Spike will not do this... because it's WRONG. At the moment, he appears to be the moral compass of Angel...the outside observer who speaks for and represents the fans, in a way. He says what we're all thinking: this Wolfram and Hart thing was a very bad idea...mainly because it was selfishly motivated (at least on the parts of Angel and Gunn). Spike doesn't know that part yet...but methinks he will find out and react accordingly at some point. Where was Eve? She's a little hottie, you know. Who wouldn't love to watch Lilah and Spike go a few verbal rounds? Damn, that'd be fun. Here's hoping they do it. Lastly, I'm struck by how different the show has really become. Closest comparison I can make is the radical departure between Seasons 5 and 6 of BTVS. The show is making those kinds of sweeping changes in tone...but unlike the dark and depressing elements that made Season 6 a tough pill to swallow initially (I admire it greatly now), this feels like a badly-needed breath of fresh air. Of course, I didn't care for Connor, and I positively adore Spike...so I could be biased. Rob - yes, yes, yes, and YES! I agree with all you wrote. You have those characters figured out.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 9, 2003 4:43:42 GMT -5
Interesting casting news for a future ep. I've posted it on the spoiler thread.
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Post by Rufus on Oct 9, 2003 5:20:19 GMT -5
Souled Angel suffered for a far longer period than did Souled Spike; but Spike accomplished a lot more for Good before he got the soul, and spent far less time moping after he got it (which could be attributed to Buffy's intervention, physically removing him from the school basement and inspiring him to pull himself out of the desperation, guilt, and First-induced craziness).
Maybe Heaven's gatekeepers figured Spike was still too human and selfish in his desires to ascend to Heaven, though I would disagree with them.
Agree that joining Wolfram & Hart was a BAD idea; but I can understand why the Fang Gang gave in, and forgive them, as long as they don't stay there permanently. And it's an interesting change. But they will all be corrupted if they stay there. Note that I don't believe that ALL large businesses/corporations/law firms are agencies of Evil, but W&H sure the heck is, and is permeated with it.[glow=teal,2,300]Gail ;D[/glow] What it gets down to is how we like or are convinced of a characters want or need to change their ways. Spike and Angel have two vastly different backgrounds, so it should be no surprise that each vampire has had a different way of reacting to the inclusion of a soul. So, what counts more.....moping and moaning for many years about yourself, or moping and moaning for a few weeks....before doing something productive about it? Rufus
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Post by Micha on Oct 9, 2003 5:52:46 GMT -5
Okay, it may have been said, but I don't have time to read before posting. I have a 7:30 chiropractor's appointment and am already late.
Did anyone else get the impression that Spike's voice was voiced over at times by JM and that the lips weren't moving with the mouth? Just a little annoyance.
I LOVED Spike's return. In Joss we trust.
All for now.
Micha
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 9, 2003 6:20:30 GMT -5
What it gets down to is how we like or are convinced of a characters want or need to change their ways. Spike and Angel have two vastly different backgrounds, so it should be no surprise that each vampire has had a different way of reacting to the inclusion of a soul. So, what counts more.....moping and moaning for many years about yourself, or moping and moaning for a few weeks....before doing something productive about it? Rufus Welcome, Rufus. Glad to hear a new voice.
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Oct 9, 2003 6:57:07 GMT -5
I've been trying to pin down in my mind any oddities in this episode, as there were in the one previous. Anybody notice any? Stuff that didn't (on the face of it, at least) make sense? This one seemed to have more of its shirt-tails tucked in than last.... [/color] [/quote] Actually, I've read four pages of observations so far and nobody has raised this one: Spike's noncorporeal. Reach for him and your hand--or body--goes right through. So how is he sitting in Angel's chair? How is he sitting in the car? When the car drives away, how is it that he goes along and isn't left sitting in mid-air? I thought JM looked a lot older than he did last year. He looks tired. Except for a few flashes of JM brilliance, much of his performance seemed "rote." The moments I did love were the vamp-out snarl as Spike rematerializes. Pure cornered animal. His speech to Fred at the end was heart-rending. That said, I liked the overall episode very much and laughed in all the appropriate places. I feel terribly for Spike, who can't seem to get a break.
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