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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:57:26 GMT -5
And, the winner is the gal from Texas! (At least, to me, that's the answer.....) Loved the snarking between Angel and Spike --- and no one, except Fred is willing to cut Spike slack. He saves the world, and he gets a round of "snub the spike" and the FG is planning to smash the amulet and damn him to hell. Thank you makd! But...I disagree that all Spike got was 'snub the spike, or that the FG was planning to damn him to hell. It seemed apparent to me that all of them were interested in who he was, and had not been told anything that would make them think he should be given any slack. that was part of the comedy for me - that Angel was so human about not giving Spike credit. Kinda like when Dawn told Joyce that Buffy 'helped' fix her breakfast. Also, in that scene Spike overheard, it seemed to me they all believed that it would be horrible for Spike to have to be chained to that place incorporeal (love that word) and useless...and that they believed they would be sending him to his rest - to peace, not to hell. None of them knew he was 'flickering' back and forth into and out of the hellmouth, until he told Fred. JM did a great job in that scene (and the one with Fred) of conveying his lonliness and apartness, didn't he? I - funny, but I had been watching and thinking...James seems distant from his lines tonight...they are funny, but he actually does seem 'ghostly'....and I looked closely to see if he and Angel actually filmed those scenes together or were they 'cut' to look like it? There was a real distance. and I worried a bit, because James has always been 'on' on the screen....had that 'life' in him. (Which, ok, maybe that's exactly why he seemed distant - to convey that) but in the scene in the bedroom, and in the scene with Fred - that was James's magic as I remembered it. I might have to replay that last scene many times to be sure of course...
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Post by makd on Oct 8, 2003 22:57:36 GMT -5
Forgot to mention another reason why Angel resents Spike so thoroughly - Spike is a walking talking piece of Angel's guilty past. William the Bloody would never have committed a single atrocity if Angelus hadn't sired Drusilla. Spike could also be a stinging connection to the far stronger guilt that Angel feels over what Angelus did to Drusilla. [glow=teal,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Oh, yeah! Spike is the one person who can take Angel down by reminding him just what a fiend he was and can still be. Just by being there, Spike is a constant reminder to Angel that he sired vamps, that he killed, that he killed with "artistry" and "poetry". And he doesn't want to be reminded of that. Ensouled Spike is also a challenge to the Angel whose ensoulment came from a curse, whereas, Spike became ensouled "to be a kind of ... man"....As Joss Wheedon said at one of the Comic Cons recently --- Spike is more highly evolved. He's poor, is "nothing" compared to Angel's wealth, power, etc., but he doesn't trust W&H, and knows they are evil, and "gray" Spike seemed a little surprised that Angel would kill a human. I'm not happy about his treatment (or ignorance) of Harmony. Maybe he just doesn't want to remember her. Still.... Spike was so poignant in those scenes where he compared Angel's lot with his own. He saves the world, and he's got nothing...so sad. oh, well, enough speculation. There was so much in this terrific episode. As someone who wasn't an Angel lover, well, in two episodes, he's got me now! 2 fun episodes, and now I want to see those TNT re-runs, which I haven't been doing. I guess I'll try to watch the 11 p.m. showings. And I'm hoping NOT to see Buffy! Those guys really need to move on. If Lorne wants to make a movie about a slayer and the vampires she loved, it's definitely time for them to move on. ;D Next thing, they'll be doing an E!Online on the Sunnydale Slayer and the souled vamps she loved.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:59:01 GMT -5
Forgot to mention another reason why Angel resents Spike so thoroughly - Spike is a walking talking piece of Angel's guilty past. William the Bloody would never have committed a single atrocity if Angelus hadn't sired Drusilla. Spike could also be a stinging connection to the far stronger guilt that Angel feels over what Angelus did to Drusilla. [glow=teal,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Very good point!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 23:05:17 GMT -5
I've been trying to pin down in my mind any oddities in this episode, as there were in the one previous. Anybody notice any? Stuff that didn't (on the face of it, at least) make sense? This one seemed to have more of its shirt-tails tucked in than last....[/color]
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Post by karalee on Oct 8, 2003 23:05:41 GMT -5
Rethinking Angel's "more or less," when referring to Spike's telling him about the plan.... I guess I now suspect Spike didn't tell him at all and was waiting for an opportunity to get at Hainsley but didn't know what it would be. Because as far as is shown, neither Angel nor Spike knows how Hainsley handles the transfers. Neither of them see him do it, and we aren't shown that anybody tells them. Which means no plan was in place that Angel knew about until Hainsley was dead.
Not absolute, but at least defensible, given what we're shown. In which case, at that 11:59th hour, had Spike not realized he could "stay" in Hainsley, it would have gone as Hainsley said, with Spike ejecting Angel's "essence" and impersonating him (or trying to) with all the neat toys, perks, etc. of W & H's CEO, which he envies Angel for. [/color] [/quote] I'm taking the 'More or less" as Angel reverting to immaturity when it comes to Spike. He didn't want Wes to know that it was Spikes plan and not his, or something like that. We saw the same thing at the beginning when he hadn't told them about his soul or his part in defeating the first. Where's Dave?
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Post by makd on Oct 8, 2003 23:09:37 GMT -5
"But...I disagree that all Spike got was 'snub the spike, or that the FG was planning to damn him to hell. It seemed apparent to me that all of them were interested in who he was, and had not been told anything that would make them think he should be given any slack.
Also, in that scene Spike overheard, it seemed to me they all believed that it would be horrible for Spike to have to be chained to that place incorporeal (love that word) and useless...and that they believed they would be sending him to his rest - to peace, not to hell. None of them knew he was 'flickering' back and forth into and out of the hellmouth, until he told Fred. "
You're right; I had already forgotten that. Damn! I can see why so many people tape episodes!! Good reminding!
JM did a great job in that scene (and the one with Fred) of conveying his lonliness and apartness, didn't he?
Yes! the best scenes, I thought, were in the bedroom, expressing his situation with Angel, then in the lab with Fred, admitting his fear. In the rest of the episode, he seemed to be finding his place, not quite there - not knowing what the hell was going on, and so busy with that, he couldn't react much. Then, in the bedroom with Angel (I did really just say that, didn't I?) , he seemed to be expressing such loneliness, such sadness. And, with Fred? I haven't seen that expression since he told Buffy that he was terrified having just spent the night holding her.
ooh, ooh, and the beginning, where he and Angel were fighting, just letting it all hang out? That was good, too.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 23:14:26 GMT -5
Oh, yeah! Spike is the one person who can take Angel down by reminding him just what a fiend he was and can still be. Just by being there, Spike is a constant reminder to Angel that he sired vamps, that he killed, that he killed with "artistry" and "poetry". And he doesn't want to be reminded of that. Ensouled Spike is also a challenge to the Angel whose ensoulment came from a curse, whereas, Spike became ensouled "to be a kind of ... man"....As Joss Wheedon said at one of the Comic Cons recently --- Spike is more highly evolved. He's poor, is "nothing" compared to Angel's wealth, power, etc., but he doesn't trust W&H, and knows they are evil, and "gray" Spike seemed a little surprised that Angel would kill a human. I'm not happy about his treatment (or ignorance) of Harmony. Maybe he just doesn't want to remember her. Still.... Spike was so poignant in those scenes where he compared Angel's lot with his own. He saves the world, and he's got nothing...so sad. oh, well, enough speculation. There was so much in this terrific episode. As someone who wasn't an Angel lover, well, in two episodes, he's got me now! 2 fun episodes, and now I want to see those TNT re-runs, which I haven't been doing. I guess I'll try to watch the 11 p.m. showings. And I'm hoping NOT to see Buffy! Those guys really need to move on. If Lorne wants to make a movie about a slayer and the vampires she loved, it's definitely time for them to move on. ;D Next thing, they'll be doing an E!Online on the Sunnydale Slayer and the souled vamps she loved. OH! You reminded me of one of the most wonderful lines! When Angel is furious because he spent 100 years trying to get over the guilt, and Spike spent 3 weeks in a basement and was fine! That was just terrific! And it also tells us that Buffy must have later told Angel much more about Spike than she did the night of the cookie dough speech and I love that idea... Buffy et al come to LA, rest and recuperate while passports are being issued...Buffy tells Angel what Spike has meant to her, how he suffered, why he got his soul...and then she leaves him and goes to Europe...sweet!
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Post by RustyGoode on Oct 8, 2003 23:20:18 GMT -5
I loved everything about this episode. It was an incredible blending of pure snarky Spike and poignant, vulnerable Spike. He absolutely has all Angel's buttons down pat.
Angel must feel guilty about Spike to some degree since he taught him how to be an evil vampire and probably took whatever opportunity with Dru he wanted, whether Spike liked it or not.
Angel was certainly torn when it came down to having a final solution for Spike. I don't think he would have destroyed the amulet unless he was sure Spike was ready to have it done. Even if it meant Spike was going to annoy him for eternity.
I do like Spike's vampire face better on Buffy than Angel. On Angel it seems more lumpy, less sleek and evil. Even wrapped in leather JM looks thin. He must have been motivated not only by Joss but by the Italian movie that's now not happening. Poor JM.
The writers really did a great job writing this ep. Better actually than Joss did on the first one. Fabulous dialogue. I think it's going to be a great season.
One final question. The demon being put into the woman's body had a familiar voice. Did anybody recognize or see in the credits who it was?
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 23:22:02 GMT -5
While Spike is exceptional even as a ghost (hey: doesn't he conform to ANY norms?) we should officially note that he's still a vamp: he goes to game face when he first recognizes Angel and ends up in the middle of the desk. So whatever ELSE he may be, he's not human, he's not exactly a ghost, but he IS still a vampire, or what remains of one. [/color]
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 23:23:24 GMT -5
I've been trying to pin down in my mind any oddities in this episode, as there were in the one previous. Anybody notice any? Stuff that didn't (on the face of it, at least) make sense? This one seemed to have more of its shirt-tails tucked in than last.... [/color] [/quote] I didn't notice anything. I noticed lots of little thiings being resolved or mentioned - it was just very satisfying on the whole to me.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 23:24:25 GMT -5
I'm taking the 'More or less" as Angel reverting to immaturity when it comes to Spike. He didn't want Wes to know that it was Spikes plan and not his, or something like that. We saw the same thing at the beginning when he hadn't told them about his soul or his part in defeating the first. Where's Dave? I agree Caraleigh. If it was Spike's plan, no way he is going to say so...he has such 'issues' with Spike.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 23:26:22 GMT -5
"But...I disagree that all Spike got was 'snub the spike, or that the FG was planning to damn him to hell. It seemed apparent to me that all of them were interested in who he was, and had not been told anything that would make them think he should be given any slack. Also, in that scene Spike overheard, it seemed to me they all believed that it would be horrible for Spike to have to be chained to that place incorporeal (love that word) and useless...and that they believed they would be sending him to his rest - to peace, not to hell. None of them knew he was 'flickering' back and forth into and out of the hellmouth, until he told Fred. " You're right; I had already forgotten that. Damn! I can see why so many people tape episodes!! Good reminding! JM did a great job in that scene (and the one with Fred) of conveying his lonliness and apartness, didn't he? Yes! the best scenes, I thought, were in the bedroom, expressing his situation with Angel, then in the lab with Fred, admitting his fear. In the rest of the episode, he seemed to be finding his place, not quite there - not knowing what the hell was going on, and so busy with that, he couldn't react much. Then, in the bedroom with Angel (I did really just say that, didn't I?) , he seemed to be expressing such loneliness, such sadness. And, with Fred? I haven't seen that expression since he told Buffy that he was terrified having just spent the night holding her. ooh, ooh, and the beginning, where he and Angel were fighting, just letting it all hang out? That was good, too. Yeah...and when he ended up in the desk? cool... LOL! now I'm doing my impersonation of that dork on SNL !!!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 23:29:28 GMT -5
I loved everything about this episode. It was an incredible blending of pure snarky Spike and poignant, vulnerable Spike. He absolutely has all Angel's buttons down pat. Angel must feel guilty about Spike to some degree since he taught him how to be an evil vampire and probably took whatever opportunity with Dru he wanted, whether Spike liked it or not. Angel was certainly torn when it came down to having a final solution for Spike. I don't think he would have destroyed the amulet unless he was sure Spike was ready to have it done. Even if it meant Spike was going to annoy him for eternity. I do like Spike's vampire face better on Buffy than Angel. On Angel it seems more lumpy, less sleek and evil. Even wrapped in leather JM looks thin. He must have been motivated not only by Joss but by the Italian movie that's now not happening. Poor JM. The writers really did a great job writing this ep. Better actually than Joss did on the first one. Fabulous dialogue. I think it's going to be a great season. One final question. The demon being put into the woman's body had a familiar voice. Did anybody recognize or see in the credits who it was? You are right Rusty...that guys voice was so familiar...seemed like the standard 'silly demon' voice - like that vampire in Bargaining...the one who told the demon bikers about the Slayer being a bot?
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Post by karalee on Oct 8, 2003 23:30:40 GMT -5
I loved everything about this episode. It was an incredible blending of pure snarky Spike and poignant, vulnerable Spike. He absolutely has all Angel's buttons down pat. Angel must feel guilty about Spike to some degree since he taught him how to be an evil vampire and probably took whatever opportunity with Dru he wanted, whether Spike liked it or not. Angel was certainly torn when it came down to having a final solution for Spike. I don't think he would have destroyed the amulet unless he was sure Spike was ready to have it done. Even if it meant Spike was going to annoy him for eternity. I do like Spike's vampire face better on Buffy than Angel. On Angel it seems more lumpy, less sleek and evil. Even wrapped in leather JM looks thin. He must have been motivated not only by Joss but by the Italian movie that's now not happening. Poor JM. The writers really did a great job writing this ep. Better actually than Joss did on the first one. Fabulous dialogue. I think it's going to be a great season. One final question. The demon being put into the woman's body had a familiar voice. Did anybody recognize or see in the credits who it was?I'm sure it wasn't James C. Leary, but he reminded me of Clem.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 23:55:52 GMT -5
There's a surprisingly good dissection of Conviction on the way it uses references to time. The author also has a thing going about Angel, in this ep, being an avatar/analogue of Joss Whedon dealing with the evil network execs, which she sees as the analogues of W & H. This is possible but not altogether persuasive to me, but she interprets in the light of this paradigm throughout. Anyway, here's the URL. I don't believe I saw the author's name.
www.buffy.nu/article.php3?id_article=1906
[/color]
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