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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:19:28 GMT -5
But it would have to be AFTER he'd agreed to let Angel "release" him by destroying the amulet, right? Otherwise, why did the two of them go through that whole spiel in Angel's bedroom? Where presumably they at least believe themselves to be talking privately. [/color] [/quote] Yes, I'd agree with that...Spike makes this fake plan with the necromancer, comes back to tell the FG, overhears and realizes that they have a plan to 'release' him...decides that perhaps that's all there is for him - his only hope for peace...goes to Angel, they have that conversation, then Spike tells Angel the details of the 'plot'....and they decide to fake Hainsley out... Now...why would they know it would work....because...because oh! Because the other demons Hainsley controlled WANTED to be placed into the dead bodies...they were paying for the privilege, not resisting at all. Spike resisted. That's it!
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 22:20:29 GMT -5
G'night Folks! I'm soooo happy Spike is back in black! Time to head to bed so I can dream about him
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:23:06 GMT -5
I think Spike DID bare his soul to Fred. Yes, he has been cultivating her; but I don't think that it was in order to get future help from her; more along the line of Spike See Pretty Woman, Spike Flirt With Pretty Woman Unless It's Harmony. An instinctual reaction. But when he went to Willow for help in Season 3, he demanded it and threatened her. When he came to the Scoobies for help following his chipping in Season 4, he was garrulous and loud in voicing his emotions. I think Spike DID feel desperate and he was baring his soul to Fred. Yes, he did know that she was in a position to help him, but he could have gone to Wesley. He couldn't have known Fred well enough to cold-bloodedly calculate what tone of voice to use to best impress her; I think he just decided to be honest without the emotional pyrotechnics of his earlier appearance and his angry and childlike appeal to the Scoobies. [shadow=green,left,300]GAIL [/shadow] He's grown up now, yes. All soul having and all...got his mom issues worked out...he's quite a catch now in fact. As soon as that incorporeal thing gets resolved. And I just had this awful thought....What if they don't resolvei it? It would be just like Joss to have Angel unable to ...you know...cause of the curse, and Spike unable to ...you know...cause he's not corporeal! Ok, that was just nighmarish...I'm sure that's not going to happen. Cause then we could never have cool fights with both vampires flipping people around, and JM would never sign a contract where he couldn't get in some good fighting.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:25:47 GMT -5
What Patti said. I smiled all the way thru, except when I gasped (like when the guy arrived back at Angel's in 3 buckets: yeee---uck!). Great, great ep. I did get spoiled on the ghost thing and went on all week about not wanting Spike to be a ghost--no, no, no, no. But, I'm hoping Patti is right and he will be re-materialized. Still, had he come back any other way staying away from Buffy would have been a big question mark. At this point at least there is no point in seeking her out (plus, he can't) or even telling her. BTW--did you believe Angel when he said she was in Europe? Hello, Sunnydale only collapsed 19 days ago--passports, etc. Angel seemed a little shifty when he said that, altho no-one contradicted him. Can't wait to rewatch the ep. Did Wes, et al seem to know about Spike's part in saving the world? They may be doing the "monster of the week" thing with regard to the "Big Bads" but there will clearly be continuity continuing in the developing relationships. For my money I couldn't care less when they developed the plan. I really don't need to know every detail and timetable. Did Joss write this ep or just direct it? Setting the bar awfully high in the second episode. More in a bit. Got to go see what JOn Stewart has to saw about Cali-fornia. I think Joss wrote this two parter - all of it. And no, the others didn't know about Spike saving the world.
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Post by karalee on Oct 8, 2003 22:26:42 GMT -5
Since I got this episode from a download I didn't get to see the "previously on" (also the opening credits with JM, it still has Charisma Carpenter). What did I miss there?
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 22:28:31 GMT -5
I think Joss wrote this two parter - all of it. And no, the others didn't know about Spike saving the world. Ok before I disappear just thought I'd answer this... Joss only wrote the "first part". David Fury and Ben Edlund wrote this installment. However, as we know, Joss always has his hands in the writing pot.
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Post by Mary on Oct 8, 2003 22:30:14 GMT -5
Tonight I was at a Community Center taking a Civil Service test after applying to be a police dispatcher in Sharonville, one of the small towns on the periphery of Cincinnati. While waiting for the tests to be passed out, I was looking around, and a lady at the next table was holding and reading...my second book, Circle, Crescent, Star!!!! (published in paper about 1972)
I went over and said to her delightedly, "That's my book!" She didn't at all misunderstand, and said she'd tried to find me because she'd heard there were more in the series. The three published in the US, she's read and reread until they're nearly falling apart and she keeps them in plastic jackets to protect them. A fan!!! I got her e-mail address and I'm gonna send her book 5, Sun of Return, as I did Anne D., who'd also read the first 3. I'm still piddling along re-keyboarding book 4, Tidestorm Limit, and when I'm done I'll send both this lady and Anne that too. And neat-o, this lady's e-mail address begins with WhereMyWhimsyTakesMe, which is the motto of the Wimseys, as in Lord Peter (Dorothy Sayers' fictional detective)! I wonder if she likes Spike....
I'll ask her.
Is that a good omen, or what?? [/color] [/quote] That's completely cool, Nan! And I hope the job search goes well, and ends soon, with great success. Mary
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Post by Sue on Oct 8, 2003 22:31:12 GMT -5
Ok... rewatching the tape again. Ok... hey Wesley says, "So, Spike came to you with his plan." and Angel responded, "More or less." What does that mean in regards to Nan's question?
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:32:32 GMT -5
Ok... rewatching the tape again. Ok... hey Wesley says, "So, Spike came to you with his plan." and Angel responded, "More or less." What does that mean in regards to Nan's question? Anyway... I was NOT going to bring that up in this post. The part I loved was the moment Hainsley begins to fight like Spike. The actor/stunt double did a great job of moving like Spike does in fights. I recognized those moves the instant I saw them... can't believe Angel didn't. Rae, I agree - I knew that was Spike fighting...he HAD to get in a few while he had the opportunity!
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 8, 2003 22:33:13 GMT -5
Gail, it seemed to me that everyone (except of course Angel) was as compassionate as could be expected with the very limited information Angel had passed along. And I loved that he hadn't leveled with them about Spike's act of heroism or his soul! I did notice how Spike's nearly first thoughts were of Buffy, but I thought when I saw it that the replay of his sacrifice was not meant to be his memory of it, but just a replay of what happened for potential new viewers, and the 'I love you' would have been very confusing. From the Harmony and Fred bits AND from next week's plotline, looks to me like Buffy is getting removed from the premises only slightly slower than Cordelia and Connor. Not griping. Move on, boys, move on! Gunn did fine. I hope this is not what we will typically get from Wesley. I really liked his place in the show. Spike has a soul now....and he needs Fred's help. I"m going for 'maturity and ability to ask for help' as he did with Buffy in the cellar in 'Sleeper'. Very echo-y to me. Well done, Spike! (Remember, nobody knew what he'd done but Angel...) I think no matter how Harmony tries to get her blondey bear back, its not going to work. I feel kind of sorry for her. He has a soul now. He could be kinder. Of course SHE doesn't have a soul...but she doesn't seem that different from when she did. You're right, Patti, the replay of Spike's last moments were not necessarily from his perspective. I felt so bad for him, going from burning up in Championlike glory, to reappearing in an office building with strangers gawking at him. Very good acting from all. Angel still has a lot of growing up to do. It's obvious that he still can't forgive Spike's attachment to Buffy and wants to keep them apart. Angel said something about Buffy saving the world and Spike helping her 'a little bit', which wasn't exactly the way it went down (and I doubt that those were the words Buffy used if/when she told Angel). Angel can't bring himself to give Spike even the credit Spike deserves for his role in defeating the First - which was Spike Saving The World With The Help of Buffy & Willow & Faith & the Slayerettes. How much of Angel's seething and often childish resentment, not to mention distorted perception of Spike comes from Spike's having had Angel tortured not once but twice in the last six years and how much it comes from the younger vamp's love affair with Buffy is something I hope will be addressed. I believe that Angelus and Spike did have some affection for each other. I know that Spike DID respect and LIKE Angelus; I remember his genuinely happy reaction when Angelus returned to the "family" after losing his soul, that is before Angelus and Dru started hitting the hay. They have treated each other very badly in the last several years. If I weighed their contact against each other, I would say that Angelus displayed more evil, more cruelty, but no one can say that Spike behaved like a boy scout with his soulled grandsire. I also wonder how much of Spike's initial attraction to Buffy came from his jealousy of Angelus over Dru. I mean, Angelus stole Drusilla, the 'woman' that Spike had adored for over a century. Spike knew that Angel and Buffy had a romance. Could Spike have nurtured a subconscious desire to take revenge by stealing the affection of the woman Angel loved? No, Spike isn't treating Harmony very well. A. He's in a lot of pain and has no patience for her. B. He, like every other Jossverse writer and character, has no respect for Harmony and treats her like a walking bit of annoying comedy relief, which she is. Maybe JW will let Harmony have a romance with some hunky demon; I thought Lorne's beefy heroic cousin would be ideal for her. [shadow=green,left,300]GAIL [/shadow]
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Post by makd on Oct 8, 2003 22:37:37 GMT -5
Yes, I'd agree with that...Spike makes this fake plan with the necromancer, comes back to tell the FG, overhears and realizes that they have a plan to 'release' him...decides that perhaps that's all there is for him - his only hope for peace...goes to Angel, they have that conversation, then Spike tells Angel the details of the 'plot'....and they decide to fake Hainsley out... Now...why would they know it would work....because...because oh! Because the other demons Hainsley controlled WANTED to be placed into the dead bodies...they were paying for the privilege, not resisting at all. Spike resisted. That's it! And, the winner is the gal from Texas! (At least, to me, that's the answer.....) Also, I think that Angel clued Spike in that not only was W&H bugged, but probably so was his apartment, and maybe the car, so they probably found another, quieter way to talk (a la those old spy movies where they turn the radio loud, then talk quietly.). With Spike's shiny new soul, I don't for a moment think he was seriously going to accept the necromancer's deal. I do think, though, that he was loving the idea of getting a few punches in on Angel. Wes is finding a new role - Gunn is now growing in importance, so what's a watcher/demon hunter to do? He will find his role, I'm sure of that. Loved the snarking between Angel and Spike --- and no one, except Fred is willing to cut Spike slack. He saves the world, and he gets a round of "snub the spike" and the FG is planning to smash the amulet and damn him to hell. I didn't tape it, but is my memory correct in that Angel seemed to relent a little toward Spike when Spike called him, "grandsire"?
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 8, 2003 22:40:22 GMT -5
Angel still has a lot of growing up to do. It's obvious that he still can't forgive Spike's attachment to Buffy and wants to keep them apart. Angel said something about Buffy saving the world and Spike helping her 'a little bit', which wasn't exactly the way it went down (and I doubt that those were the words Buffy used if/when she told Angel). Angel can't bring himself to give Spike even the credit Spike deserves for his role in defeating the First - which was Spike Saving The World With The Help of Buffy & Willow & Faith & the Slayerettes. How much of Angel's seething and often childish resentment, not to mention distorted perception of Spike comes from Spike's having had Angel tortured not once but twice in the last six years and how much it comes from the younger vamp's love affair with Buffy is something I hope will be addressed. I believe that Angelus and Spike did have some affection for each other. I know that Spike DID respect and LIKE Angelus; I remember his genuinely happy reaction when Angelus returned to the "family" after losing his soul, that is before Angelus and Dru started hitting the hay. They have treated each other very badly in the last several years. If I weighed their contact against each other, I would say that Angelus displayed more evil, more cruelty, but no one can say that Spike behaved like a boy scout with his soulled grandsire. I also wonder how much of Spike's initial attraction to Buffy came from his jealousy of Angelus over Dru. I mean, Angelus stole Drusilla, the 'woman' that Spike had adored for over a century. Spike knew that Angel and Buffy had a romance. Could Spike have nurtured a subconscious desire to take revenge by stealing the affection of the woman Angel loved? [shadow=green,left,300]GAIL [/shadow] Forgot to mention another reason why Angel resents Spike so thoroughly - Spike is a walking talking piece of Angel's guilty past. William the Bloody would never have committed a single atrocity if Angelus hadn't sired Drusilla. Spike could also be a stinging connection to the far stronger guilt that Angel feels over what Angelus did to Drusilla. [glow=teal,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:40:43 GMT -5
Since I got this episode from a download I didn't get to see the "previously on" (also the opening credits with JM, it still has Charisma Carpenter). What did I miss there? Nothing really.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 22:44:14 GMT -5
What Patti said. I smiled all the way thru, except when I gasped (like when the guy arrived back at Angel's in 3 buckets: yeee---uck!). Great, great ep. I did get spoiled on the ghost thing and went on all week about not wanting Spike to be a ghost--no, no, no, no. But, I'm hoping Patti is right and he will be re-materialized. Still, had he come back any other way staying away from Buffy would have been a big question mark. At this point at least there is no point in seeking her out (plus, he can't) or even telling her. BTW--did you believe Angel when he said she was in Europe? Hello, Sunnydale only collapsed 19 days ago--passports, etc. Angel seemed a little shifty when he said that, altho no-one contradicted him. Can't wait to rewatch the ep. Did Wes, et al seem to know about Spike's part in saving the world? They may be doing the "monster of the week" thing with regard to the "Big Bads" but there will clearly be continuity continuing in the developing relationships. For my money I couldn't care less when they developed the plan. I really don't need to know every detail and timetable. Did Joss write this ep or just direct it? Setting the bar awfully high in the second episode. More in a bit. Got to go see what JOn Stewart has to saw about Cali-fornia. Neither one.Teleplay by David Fury and Ben Edlund; Story by David Fury; Directed by James A. Contner. No direct Joss at all in this one. [/color]
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 22:55:01 GMT -5
Rethinking Angel's "more or less," when referring to Spike's telling him about the plan.... I guess I now suspect Spike didn't tell him at all and was waiting for an opportunity to get at Hainsley but didn't know what it would be. Because as far as is shown, neither Angel nor Spike knows how Hainsley handles the transfers. Neither of them see him do it, and we aren't shown that anybody tells them. Which means no plan was in place that Angel knew about until Hainsley was dead.
Not absolute, but at least defensible, given what we're shown. In which case, at that 11:59th hour, had Spike not realized he could "stay" in Hainsley, it would have gone as Hainsley said, with Spike ejecting Angel's "essence" and impersonating him (or trying to) with all the neat toys, perks, etc. of W & H's CEO, which he envies Angel for. [/color]
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