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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 21:46:33 GMT -5
Some Random Musings, The gang know that Spike has a soul and he saved the world, both a which Angel tried to hide. Wesley did know that Spike was helping Buffy, so he could have recognized Spike from pictures. Spike is "above room temperature". Aren't vamps just room temp? Is Spike getting warmer? Is there dissent among the Senior Partners or Another Player involved? The dollies line made me think of Dru--she would salivate to have life-sized dolls. Angel "has it too good"--Spike gets nothing as a reward for his sacrifice. The Senior Partners have "plans for Angel". They would be mad if he is killed. Was Spike part of the plan, or did Angel screw things up by giving the amulet to Buffy? Angel's "all for mercy" if it gets Spike out of his hair. Harmony still drives Spike nuts and she wants to hook up again. That was a wicked cool twisting flip by Angel coming off the table. JM's makeup looks like it did back in Season 2 of Buffy--much paler skin, lighter brows and no eyelashes. He looked wonderful in that last scene with Fred. Before that, -at least on my channel, it seemed like his dialogue didn't quite match the action...did anyone else notice? I mean that it wasn't quite in synch... |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 21:47:07 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Spike/Angel plan to fool Hainsley.
It's clearly set up with Hainsley when Spike does his musing on how wretched it is to be a ghost in Angel's bedroom. This is the first time Angel has seen him (apparently) since they were both at Hainsley's. So it couldn't have been set up before then, right?
So one has to assume that it's Spike/Hainsley against Angel at that point. And Spike expresses himself as willing to be sent on his way via the destruction of the amulet. So why would he have said that, or why WOULDN'T he have said, "Hey, here's this neat idea on how we can take Hainsley down" if the plan was already made (by Spike) or if they made the plan at that point? The only reason I can think of is that Angel has already told him every locale at W&H is bugged and Spike doesn't dare say anything about what he's planning lest it get leaked back to Hainlsey by somebody at W&H. And we've been shown nothing to establish that Spike knows about the widespred tracking, bugging, etc. So it's technically possible, but no groundwork for it had been laid.
By the time they're in the cemetary, there's no chance to plan, and Angel is under Hainsley's control and supervision after that, so it couldn't have been made then.
Angel says Spike decided how Hainsley could be trapped when he learned that Hainsley used his own body as a conduit for the "essence" transfer. So the only time, I think, that the plot could have been hatched is in conversation in the car on the way to the cemetary.
I have to assume that before that, Spike was planning to go through with the plot he'd made with Hainsley and just changed his mind when he saw a different opportunity.
Because I assume he's telling the truth in what he tells Fred--that there's a chasm and he's in the process of falling into it, and terrified. And has no way of controlling that himself. So he needs the resources of W&H OR a new body to have any chance of saving himself. And I think he'd much rather trust Fred & Angel than Hainsley.
Another thought has occurred to me in passing: Hainsley implies that Spike will have to do him some indefinite number of favors and only THEN will Spike be granted a body of his own, instead of Angel's. Spike can't wait, because of the chasm. So that means Spike was planning to doublecross Hainsley from that moment on.
So why the spiel in Angel's bedroom?
I've come full circle on this, I guess. Was Spike ever sincere in plotting against Angel and, if so, when did he change his mind? And if he intended all along to trap Hainsley, why did he apparently agree to Angel's "merciful" plan, in the talk in Angel's bedroom?
Anybody got any ideas?
[/color] [/quote] Honestly, I think it happened when Spike was in Hainsley's body. At that point, he figured out that he could control Hainsley. Angel is pretty quick to pick up on things himself so he realized it when Spike didn't go right into his body. Why, I pretend you ask, do I think this? I don't know why... it's a gut thing. Angel's explanations later seemed like cover up to me. But, also, how would Angel or Spike know that Spike would be able to control Hainsley? It didn't seem that the other demon could control Hainsley so that would have been an awfully big assumption on both of their parts. Would Angel have taken that chance? I'm just not sure I think he would. |
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 21:53:34 GMT -5
My thoughts on the episode:
8. Spike is able to speak honestly of his fears to Fred at the end of the episode, after knowing her for what - 24 hours? It took him four years to speak to Willow honestly for a couple of minutes, five years to speak to Buffy honestly (the "you treated me like a man" speech in THE GIFT), yet he goes to Fred and bares his worried soul to her. Attraction, or being mature enough to be able to reach out for help when he needs it?
[glow=green,2,300]GAIL  [/glow] [/color] |
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 8, 2003 21:53:40 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Spike/Angel plan to fool Hainsley.
It's clearly set up with Hainsley when Spike does his musing on how wretched it is to be a ghost in Angel's bedroom. This is the first time Angel has seen him (apparently) since they were both at Hainsley's. So it couldn't have been set up before then, right?
So one has to assume that it's Spike/Hainsley against Angel at that point. And Spike expresses himself as willing to be sent on his way via the destruction of the amulet. So why would he have said that, or why WOULDN'T he have said, "Hey, here's this neat idea on how we can take Hainsley down" if the plan was already made (by Spike) or if they made the plan at that point? The only reason I can think of is that Angel has already told him every locale at W&H is bugged and Spike doesn't dare say anything about what he's planning lest it get leaked back to Hainlsey by somebody at W&H. And we've been shown nothing to establish that Spike knows about the widespred tracking, bugging, etc. So it's technically possible, but no groundwork for it had been laid.
By the time they're in the cemetary, there's no chance to plan, and Angel is under Hainsley's control and supervision after that, so it couldn't have been made then.
Angel says Spike decided how Hainsley could be trapped when he learned that Hainsley used his own body as a conduit for the "essence" transfer. So the only time, I think, that the plot could have been hatched is in conversation in the car on the way to the cemetary.
I have to assume that before that, Spike was planning to go through with the plot he'd made with Hainsley and just changed his mind when he saw a different opportunity.
Because I assume he's telling the truth in what he tells Fred--that there's a chasm and he's in the process of falling into it, and terrified. And has no way of controlling that himself. So he needs the resources of W&H OR a new body to have any chance of saving himself. And I think he'd much rather trust Fred & Angel than Hainsley.
Another thought has occurred to me in passing: Hainsley implies that Spike will have to do him some indefinite number of favors and only THEN will Spike be granted a body of his own, instead of Angel's. Spike can't wait, because of the chasm. So that means Spike was planning to doublecross Hainsley from that moment on.
So why the spiel in Angel's bedroom?
I've come full circle on this, I guess. Was Spike ever sincere in plotting against Angel and, if so, when did he change his mind? And if he intended all along to trap Hainsley, why did he apparently agree to Angel's "merciful" plan, in the talk in Angel's bedroom?
Anybody got any ideas?
[/color] [/quote] I may not be remembering everything in the correct order, but I had the impression that Spike was always dubious about the prospect of cooperating with Hainsley. He may also have brought Hainsley's plan to Angel in Angel's bedroom as a way of proving his worth so Angel & co. would NOT terminate him.
When Angel and Spike had that conversation in Angel's bedroom, Spike said he couldn't stand being "useless" and that he had to end it. Then there was a commercial, followed by the scene in the graveyard. I think that either Angel postulated the plan to Spike as a way for Spike not to be "useless" anymore(Angel was already softening toward his grandchild before the commercial, he actually asked Spike what HE wanted to do), OR Spike came up with the idea of working with Angel to defeat Hainsley in order to end his state of utter uselessness.[glow=green,2,300]GAIL [/glow] |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 21:57:15 GMT -5
I've been thinking about the Spike/Angel plan to fool Hainsley.
It's clearly set up with Hainsley when Spike does his musing on how wretched it is to be a ghost in Angel's bedroom. This is the first time Angel has seen him (apparently) since they were both at Hainsley's. So it couldn't have been set up before then, right?
So one has to assume that it's Spike/Hainsley against Angel at that point. And Spike expresses himself as willing to be sent on his way via the destruction of the amulet. So why would he have said that, or why WOULDN'T he have said, "Hey, here's this neat idea on how we can take Hainsley down" if the plan was already made (by Spike) or if they made the plan at that point? The only reason I can think of is that Angel has already told him every locale at W&H is bugged and Spike doesn't dare say anything about what he's planning lest it get leaked back to Hainlsey by somebody at W&H. And we've been shown nothing to establish that Spike knows about the widespred tracking, bugging, etc. So it's technically possible, but no groundwork for it had been laid.
By the time they're in the cemetary, there's no chance to plan, and Angel is under Hainsley's control and supervision after that, so it couldn't have been made then.
Angel says Spike decided how Hainsley could be trapped when he learned that Hainsley used his own body as a conduit for the "essence" transfer. So the only time, I think, that the plot could have been hatched is in conversation in the car on the way to the cemetary.
I have to assume that before that, Spike was planning to go through with the plot he'd made with Hainsley and just changed his mind when he saw a different opportunity.
Because I assume he's telling the truth in what he tells Fred--that there's a chasm and he's in the process of falling into it, and terrified. And has no way of controlling that himself. So he needs the resources of W&H OR a new body to have any chance of saving himself. And I think he'd much rather trust Fred & Angel than Hainsley.
Another thought has occurred to me in passing: Hainsley implies that Spike will have to do him some indefinite number of favors and only THEN will Spike be granted a body of his own, instead of Angel's. Spike can't wait, because of the chasm. So that means Spike was planning to doublecross Hainsley from that moment on.
So why the spiel in Angel's bedroom?
I've come full circle on this, I guess. Was Spike ever sincere in plotting against Angel and, if so, when did he change his mind? And if he intended all along to trap Hainsley, why did he apparently agree to Angel's "merciful" plan, in the talk in Angel's bedroom?
Anybody got any ideas?
[/color] [/quote] I don't think we have to assume that because he let Hainsley believe he was plotting with him he ever meant to go through with it. I think he came back intending to tell them all about it, but overheard the conversation about 'releasing' him...and so approached Angel alone. And then they made their plan. |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 21:58:28 GMT -5
I may not be remembering everything in the correct order, but I had the impression that Spike was always dubious about the prospect of cooperating with Hainsley. He may also have brought Hainsley's plan to Angel in Angel's bedroom as a way of proving his worth so Angel & co. would NOT terminate him.
When Angel and Spike had that conversation in Angel's bedroom, Spike said he couldn't stand being "useless" and that he had to end it. Then there was a commercial, followed by the scene in the graveyard. I think that either Angel postulated the plan to Spike as a way for Spike not to be "useless" anymore(Angel was already softening toward his grandchild before the commercial, he actually asked Spike what HE wanted to do), OR Spike came up with the idea of working with Angel to defeat Hainsley in order to end his state of utter uselessness.[glow=green,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Alright. Now I'm questioning myself. Spike's comments to Angel in the graveyard are very un-Spike-like. So, that would indicate they did have a plan at that point but I still want to know why they knew Spike would be able to control Hainsley as he was passing through his body. |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 22:00:19 GMT -5
I don't think we have to assume that because he let Hainsley believe he was plotting with him he ever meant to go through with it. I think he came back intending to tell them all about it, but overheard the conversation about 'releasing' him...and so approached Angel alone. And then they made their plan. Hmm, you bring up a good point Patti. Ugh. This is all turning my head around in circles (like a cat chasing her tail). I am so glad I'm not covering this angle in my review! |
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 8, 2003 22:00:52 GMT -5
I don't think we have to assume that because he let Hainsley believe he was plotting with him he ever meant to go through with it. I think he came back intending to tell them all about it, but overheard the conversation about 'releasing' him...and so approached Angel alone. And then they made their plan. [/color] |
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 8, 2003 22:05:02 GMT -5
Gail, Spike has been flirting with Fred since she started to scan him. ("So you think I'm hot?" Pullease!) He's been cultivating her. And even if true, his tale of desperation is intended as a way to MAKE her want to help him. So I wouldn't go so far as to say he's bared his soul (not that you did). He's fishing desperately for help, and not only is Fred the only woman in authority (ie. able maybe to help him) he's encountered at W&H but he's been flirting with her from the get-go. Spike knows he has a whole lot more chance to get ANY woman's help than to get Angel's. Basically, we have the reverse of the S'cubie's resurrection of Buffy: Angel doesn't really know or care where Spike goes and just wants him gone. That he would in fact be sending him to a Hell dimension (aparently) is something he doesn't inquire into or want to know. Willow's rescuing Buffy from what she imagines to be a Hell dimension, when in fact Buffy was in heaven, seems the direct reverse of this. [/color] [/quote] I think Spike DID bare his soul to Fred. Yes, he has been cultivating her; but I don't think that it was in order to get future help from her; more along the line of Spike See Pretty Woman, Spike Flirt With Pretty Woman Unless It's Harmony. An instinctual reaction. But when he went to Willow for help in Season 3, he demanded it and threatened her. When he came to the Scoobies for help following his chipping in Season 4, he was garrulous and loud in voicing his emotions. I think Spike DID feel desperate and he was baring his soul to Fred. Yes, he did know that she was in a position to help him, but he could have gone to Wesley. He couldn't have known Fred well enough to cold-bloodedly calculate what tone of voice to use to best impress her; I think he just decided to be honest without the emotional pyrotechnics of his earlier appearance and his angry and childlike appeal to the Scoobies. [shadow=green,left,300]GAIL [/shadow] |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 22:06:17 GMT -5
But it would have to be AFTER he'd agreed to let Angel "release" him by destroying the amulet, right? Otherwise, why did the two of them go through that whole spiel in Angel's bedroom? Where presumably they at least believe themselves to be talking privately. [/color] [/quote] But as Gail pointed out, the conversation in the bedroom was intentionally misleading. It could be taken either way. I'm rewinding my tape now so that I can re-watch it and see if we are correct about this. This is what Spike says, "I can't live like this Angel. Being useless. Being nothing. I want it to end." So, I suppose that could have meant... I don't want to be useless anymore. So, here's a plan where I get to be useful. Use me to get to Hainsley. (Still not sure I'm believing that but I can see how it could be taken that way.) |
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Post by Sue on Oct 8, 2003 22:08:10 GMT -5
This was a terrific episode tonight...so many questions answered - so much fun with Spike and Angel - I was completely taken in by the double double cross...and the ending was just brilliant...I can't wait for Spike to be 'corporealed' again - and I know it will happen...you just know they won't leave him a ghost for long. What a wonderful scene with Fred...echoes of the end of 'Sleeper'? Oh yeah... I'm babbling I know, but I don't have to review it this week, and where are you people! I wanna talk about it! What Patti said. I smiled all the way thru, except when I gasped (like when the guy arrived back at Angel's in 3 buckets: yeee---uck!). Great, great ep. I did get spoiled on the ghost thing and went on all week about not wanting Spike to be a ghost--no, no, no, no. But, I'm hoping Patti is right and he will be re-materialized. Still, had he come back any other way staying away from Buffy would have been a big question mark. At this point at least there is no point in seeking her out (plus, he can't) or even telling her. BTW--did you believe Angel when he said she was in Europe? Hello, Sunnydale only collapsed 19 days ago--passports, etc. Angel seemed a little shifty when he said that, altho no-one contradicted him. Can't wait to rewatch the ep. Did Wes, et al seem to know about Spike's part in saving the world? They may be doing the "monster of the week" thing with regard to the "Big Bads" but there will clearly be continuity continuing in the developing relationships. For my money I couldn't care less when they developed the plan. I really don't need to know every detail and timetable. Did Joss write this ep or just direct it? Setting the bar awfully high in the second episode. More in a bit. Got to go see what JOn Stewart has to saw about Cali-fornia. |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 8, 2003 22:09:30 GMT -5
My thoughts on the episode:
2. Spike's confusion on returning as a ghost and not knowing where he was was well done and very poignant, especially since NO ONE demonstrated an ounce of compassion when he appeared, with the possible exception of Lorne.
3. Did y'all notice that one of the first things Spike said and indicated was an intense desire to get to Buffy? And that his memory of his last moments with her did NOT include the 'I love you/no you don't' dialogue about which we've been obsessing since May?
6. Gunn is not only extremely hunky in suits, he is being VERY helpful and useful to Angel; as much as Wesley used to be.
8. Spike is able to speak honestly of his fears to Fred at the end of the episode, after knowing her for what - 24 hours? It took him four years to speak to Willow honestly for a couple of minutes, five years to speak to Buffy honestly (the "you treated me like a man" speech in THE GIFT), yet he goes to Fred and bares his worried soul to her. Attraction, or being mature enough to be able to reach out for help when he needs it?
9. Is anyone EVER going to say 'WELL DONE SPIKE' after he died to save the world?
10. Do you think the writers could try any harder to throw Harmony at Spike? Please, NO!!!![glow=green,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Gail, it seemed to me that everyone (except of course Angel) was as compassionate as could be expected with the very limited information Angel had passed along. And I loved that he hadn't leveled with them about Spike's act of heroism or his soul! I did notice how Spike's nearly first thoughts were of Buffy, but I thought when I saw it that the replay of his sacrifice was not meant to be his memory of it, but just a replay of what happened for potential new viewers, and the 'I love you' would have been very confusing. From the Harmony and Fred bits AND from next week's plotline, looks to me like Buffy is getting removed from the premises only slightly slower than Cordelia and Connor. Not griping. Move on, boys, move on! Gunn did fine. I hope this is not what we will typically get from Wesley. I really liked his place in the show. Spike has a soul now....and he needs Fred's help. I"m going for 'maturity and ability to ask for help' as he did with Buffy in the cellar in 'Sleeper'. Very echo-y to me. Well done, Spike! (Remember, nobody knew what he'd done but Angel...) I think no matter how Harmony tries to get her blondey bear back, its not going to work. I feel kind of sorry for her. He has a soul now. He could be kinder. Of course SHE doesn't have a soul...but she doesn't seem that different from when she did. |
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 8, 2003 22:10:38 GMT -5
But it would have to be AFTER he'd agreed to let Angel "release" him by destroying the amulet, right? Otherwise, why did the two of them go through that whole spiel in Angel's bedroom? Where presumably they at least believe themselves to be talking privately. [/color] [/quote] Either Spike was in a deep enough despair that he was actually considering eternal peace and then Angel talked him out of it during the commercial, or the 'end' that Spike mentioned in Angel's bedroom was the end of his uselessness and the beginning of having some kind of role in the world. They would have refined the plan in the car, and kept quiet about it in the graveyard because they wouldn't have been sure where Hainsley was and how much he could hear.
I won'd know for several weeks, which is how long it might take to get a videotape of it.[glow=green,2,300]GAIL [/glow] |
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Post by makd on Oct 8, 2003 22:13:25 GMT -5
Tonight I was at a Community Center taking a Civil Service test after applying to be a police dispatcher in Sharonville, one of the small towns on the periphery of Cincinnati. While waiting for the tests to be passed out, I was looking around, and a lady at the next table was holding and reading...my second book, Circle, Crescent, Star!!!! (published in paper about 1972)
I went over and said to her delightedly, "That's my book!" She didn't at all misunderstand, and said she'd tried to find me because she'd heard there were more in the series. The three published in the US, she's read and reread until they're nearly falling apart and she keeps them in plastic jackets to protect them. A fan!!! I got her e-mail address and I'm gonna send her book 5, Sun of Return, as I did Anne D., who'd also read the first 3. I'm still piddling along re-keyboarding book 4, Tidestorm Limit, and when I'm done I'll send both this lady and Anne that too. And neat-o, this lady's e-mail address begins with WhereMyWhimsyTakesMe, which is the motto of the Wimseys, as in Lord Peter (Dorothy Sayers' fictional detective)! I wonder if she likes Spike....
I'll ask her.
Is that a good omen, or what?? 
[/color] [/quote] Wow! What a great day for you! and....yes, definitely a good omen!! Wheeeee! |
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 8, 2003 22:18:13 GMT -5
Ok... rewatching the tape again.
Ok... hey Wesley says, "So, Spike came to you with his plan." and Angel responded, "More or less." What does that mean in regards to Nan's question?
Anyway... I was NOT going to bring that up in this post. The part I loved was the moment Hainsley begins to fight like Spike. The actor/stunt double did a great job of moving like Spike does in fights. I recognized those moves the instant I saw them... can't believe Angel didn't.
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[/glow]
