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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 14:27:40 GMT -5
I'm reposting this in case you miss it in the board switch Go here www.livejournal.com/users/estepheia/203751.html?#cutid1Some nice things are being said about your book Plot and your fanfiction. You will have to scroll down a bit to get to it. ETA- I'm second. If I was in that horserace in Spain (The Palio?) my neighbors would want to kill me right now. I learned a few things in school. Caraleigh, thanks for your snooping. I saw. I thanked. I left. |
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 10, 2003 14:28:22 GMT -5
I think now would be a great time for you to sit down and tell us all a little story about those wild days Lee & EG. I kind of have a vision of the two of you a la Buffy and Faith in Bad Girls. We'll all pull the chairs in close, we've got the snacks. What were you really like?  Well, I wasn't that cool. Still not that cool. I would just get in fights a lot (some I instigated) and played some really rough games growing up. I was a big tomboy so it wasn't anything for me to rumble with the boys in my neighborhood. I was definitely "scrappy" - caused my parents all sorts of headaches. Here I was the preacher's kid who everyone thought would be this sweet, innocent little girl and there I would be, getting into a "knock down, drag out" fight right outside the sanctuary (twice INSIDE the sanctuary). Oh how proud my father must have been.  EG has the cool stories - the desk story is my favorite!! My stories are basically just me being a big dork - pretty much like all my stories. I never hesitated to get in a fight - bring 'em on, was my motto - so I definitely got my fair share of poundings. I was also thrown out of countless softball/baseball games because of this attitude (and for language - yet again, my parents must have been SO proud). Seriously, you want the cool stories - talk with EG. |
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 10, 2003 14:30:16 GMT -5
As per our discussion a couple days ago, I noticed this article on the other Slayage, Slayage: The International Journal of Buffy Studies. Convents, Claddagh rings, and even The Book of Kells: Representing the Irish in Buffy the Vampire Slayer www.utpjournals.com/jour.ihtml?lp=simile/issue10/pottsX1.htmlHaven't read it yet, but it looks interesting. Articles like this always cause me to shake my head in wonderment. People scoff at a show that produces this level of academic commentary and discussion?! I went to read the abstract and it looks very intriguing..... |
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Post by makd on Oct 10, 2003 14:32:57 GMT -5
EG's right - it's because of our "wilder" past - not because we love Scrappy Doo! (hey, makd - you think you're a bigger nerd than me?! HA!! ;D) Lee - at 58, I swear I've been a nerd longer than anyone on the board - and possibly in the county in which I live. See: the county in which I live. Only a nerd would write it that way! Besides, I can tell the difference between a nerd and a geek, remember? ;D |
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 10, 2003 14:35:36 GMT -5
I sent you a semi-urgent IM. Just thought you should know. I answered, you answered, I answered, you....we gotta stop meeting this way! ;D And somehow I hit modify instead of quote and stuck the above remark in your post instead of mine, but I think I fixed it...so if anyone is puzzled by the rapid appearance and disappearance of text....its not He-who-shall-not-be-named, it's She-who's-without-a-brain! |
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Post by makd on Oct 10, 2003 14:36:29 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't that cool. Still not that cool. I would just get in fights a lot (some I instigated) and played some really rough games growing up. I was a big tomboy so it wasn't anything for me to rumble with the boys in my neighborhood. I was definitely "scrappy" - caused my parents all sorts of headaches. Here I was the preacher's kid who everyone thought would be this sweet, innocent little girl and there I would be, getting into a "knock down, drag out" fight right outside the sanctuary (twice INSIDE the sanctuary). Oh how proud my father must have been. EG has the cool stories - the desk story is my favorite!! My stories are basically just me being a big dork - pretty much like all my stories. I never hesitated to get in a fight - bring 'em on, was my motto - so I definitely got my fair share of poundings. I was also thrown out of countless softball/baseball games because of this attitude (and for language - yet again, my parents must have been SO proud). Seriously, you want the cool stories - talk with EG. Seriously: I am so proud of your scrappiness, Lee! (I think I told you this, before...(ponders, nerdily, her age) but no matter, 'cause I'm always proud of scrappy gals. (Hello...buffy fan) |
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Post by deborah on Oct 10, 2003 14:37:53 GMT -5
Now this is a bit embarrassing ... there's actually only one of me (first name Sarah, you can probably guess the second). After I checked my password, the login page told me there was an error, and wouldn't let me back in ... so I tried again (being a bit more cunning), and managed to log myself in by my first name (so I wouldn't forget who I am) ... only now there's two of me, and I should probably slink away in shame, and come back in a few months as someone else entirely. Anyway, now I've made such a graceful entrance, perhaps I should say hello, and nice to be here. I've been lurking for quite some time, I'm in England (and English) -- considered signing up some time ago when you were discussing Spike's and Wesley's accents -- so I'm working on a totally different time scale (the board is usually deserted when I read it). And I won't see the new series till January, but I am thoroughly spoiled (and yes, I understand the rules on that), so I'm finding all the discussions really interesting. I decided to come out from behind the sofa because this seems like such a friendly group -- I really appreciate the fact that you disagree in such a civilised way -- and that's kind of it really. I would just add, though, that I sympathise with how Rob feels about Xander because I really miss Giles (and did throughout Series 7, though he finally got a couple of great lines in Chosen). But without knowing any of you, and so being wholly objective about it, I've never noticed any bitterness in his/your posts, and I agree that the male perspective adds a great deal to discussions. The greater the spread of views the better. Sarah Just wanted to say hello and welcome, Sara. I'm very please you've decided to join us. I participated in that discussion about Spike and Wesley's accents and I also recall posting a rant or two about fanfic that has Spike speaking in and/or referring to his Cockney accent ( not). If you would care to renew the discussion it I'd be very interested in hearing your opinion. I grew up on lots of British television programming, courtesy of Public TV. So I acquired a lot of exposure to various accents and developed an ear for distinguishing between them. It bothers me when fanfic writers put a Cockney accent or expressions in Spike's speech. After the airing of AtS 5.2 "Just Rewards" this week someone (I think Spring) mentioned that JM's accent seemed to be a little rusty and I agreed it seemed a bit off (although not much). But I think I may have heard a couple of dropped "H"s which is not consistent with Spike-speak. Hearing American actors speak in a bad English accent always make me cringe. A flawless English accent seems to be a talent and a skill beyond the abilities of most American actors. But to my American ears anyway, I didn't realize that Forest Whitaker in Crying Game and Robert Downey Jr in Chaplin were American when I saw their performances in those films. I think JM rates about half a step below them. He is usually quite convincing but occasionally he strikes a false note. I would really be interested in your take on all this. |
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 14:37:57 GMT -5
Lee - at 58, I swear I've been a nerd longer than anyone on the board - and possibly in the county in which I live. See: the county in which I live. Only a nerd would write it that way! Besides, I can tell the difference between a nerd and a geek, remember? ;D Does being an antedeluvian hippie count toward being a nerd? Or are they antithetical, makd? If the former, I got you beat, cards and spades (another antedeluvian phrase: from the game Spades ((Duh)). |
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Post by Alice on Oct 10, 2003 14:40:29 GMT -5
Well, I wasn't that cool. Still not that cool. I would just get in fights a lot (some I instigated) and played some really rough games growing up. I was a big tomboy so it wasn't anything for me to rumble with the boys in my neighborhood. I was definitely "scrappy" - caused my parents all sorts of headaches. Here I was the preacher's kid who everyone thought would be this sweet, innocent little girl and there I would be, getting into a "knock down, drag out" fight right outside the sanctuary (twice INSIDE the sanctuary). Oh how proud my father must have been. EG has the cool stories - the desk story is my favorite!! My stories are basically just me being a big dork - pretty much like all my stories. I never hesitated to get in a fight - bring 'em on, was my motto - so I definitely got my fair share of poundings. I was also thrown out of countless softball/baseball games because of this attitude (and for language - yet again, my parents must have been SO proud). Seriously, you want the cool stories - talk with EG. Well, waiting to hear EG's stories, but don't knock yourself Lee. You sound like a hoot - but back in the day I bet I would have been mucho intimidated. And besides, every duo needs the wacky character. Think Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. |
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 10, 2003 14:44:02 GMT -5
I think this is Spring's post from the last part (it was on page 28 I think, naturally I seem to have forgotten to copy the post#). It follows my comment. It's post #426! Just wanted to mention that I had the impression I had, from the two episodes where we saw the pre-vamp William, that I don't remember any examples of his showing compassion towards anyone. William was sensitive, to be sure, but that sensitivity seemed to be directed towards himself and his mother. He was a rather self-absorbed, naive fellow who hid from an unpleasant world in his own refuge of money, society, and poetry. I have always found it interesting that the vamped William and Liam, whether souled or unsouled, were emotionally much stronger and tougher individuals than they were as humans. The insecurities were still there though, and resurfaced when the souls did, or, in Spike's case, after he was given an artificial 'conscience' in the form of a chip. The souled Angel was such an emotional wreck that he spent decades hiding from the world in horror, skulking in alleys consuming rodents, overwhelmed with guilt and unable to pull himself out of his own pain and guilt until Whistler gave him a shove and an inducement i.e. new-Slayer Buffy. When Angel first came to L.A., he didn't immediately start up his agency and go helping the helpless. He was rather helpless himself, not really knowing how to start up his life as a good guy again in the big city, not able to connect with anyone, until Doyle came along and jump-started Angel's Champion of the Powers career. The newly souled vamp William was also a wreck; though we'll probably never know how much of that despair and madness was caused by the returned soul and how much was caused by the First. I rather think that he had wanted to come back to Sunnydale after getting the soul, that it wasn't just the First moving him around here and there. William might well have stayed the First's pawn if Buffy hadn't found him and sparked the resurgence of his own fierce individuality via his love for her and his faith in her. Angel's discovery of his own role and destiny in the wake of experiencing guilt and horror in the wake of his soul's return is tied to his acceptance of a 'higher' calling, first that of protector of a new Slayer and second of Champion of the Powers That Be. Spike's discovery of his own place in the universe following the shattering resoulement is tied to the importance he has always given Love of a particular woman, said Love being his ruling passion. It has been hinted, in the latter half of Season 7 of BUFFY and perhaps now in AtvS, that Spike might be evolving beyond his original Fool For Love raison d'etre. He was able to care for others besides Buffy; i.e. Dawn, and I think his sacrifice to save the world was done for more than just love of Buffy, though that was part of the motive. And in this coming season, unless the writers are foolish enough to throw Spike back into an all-consuming passion for one woman too quickly, he might even learn that he doesn't have to fall for the first pretty vamp who takes an interest in him, or a Slayer who initially despises him. Good points, though, about whether pre-vamp Liam's lack of emotional strength made him easier prey for takeover by his demon. I wonder now, and this just occured to me, whether the main difference between the degrees to which Liam's and William's vamp demons took control of them lies elsewhere. As far as I could tell, Liam received little to no tenderness and nurturing from either of his parents. His father was impatient, short-sighted, perhaps over-religious, and perhaps physically abusive; while Liam's mother seemed a complete nonentity. William's mother adored him and maybe gave him too much love and tenderness, making him the center of her world. William was used to getting nurturing love and tenderness every day from Mother to the point that he really didn't know how to get it elsewhere though he did want to; Liam got no nurturing love or tenderness and sought out emotional fulfillment from brawling in bars or coercing sex from serving/servant girls. Both young men were emotional cripples, BUT WILLIAM WAS USED TO BEING LOVED, and LIAM HAD NO LOVE IN HIS LIFE. Vamp William HAD to have love and nurture in his life and eagerly made Drusilla the object of those feelings and probably got it occasionally from her. He retained the ability to give and receive love and its strong importance in his life. Which would explain his panic when he was chipped; not only could he not feed, he had no lover to go to for help. Soulless Vamp Liam neither expected nor wanted love/nurture in his life and bloodily rejected the Slayer who had been Angel's source for both; Angel's adoration of Buffy was transmuted into obsession and rage by soulless Angelus. [glow=navy,2,300]GAIL  [/glow]<<<<Possible. Though I think we get more messages that suggest that William was stronger than Liam (rather than Spike's demon is weaker). I don't mean that William was stronger than Liam in any general way. William was quite the wimp in many ways, of course. I'm thinking of the way Angel tells Buffy that it's "the man in him" that needs killing" and that he's "weak," it's what he's "always been." I think this is - in part - an explanation for why the demon takes Liam over so utterly. William, despite his wimpiness, was a very ultra-sensitive guy whose humanity was very strong within him - he had a strong moral compass and compassion for others, etc. His weaknesses weren't weaknesses of the flesh. He's was a fool for love, and he was insecure, etc. Anyhow - I thought Liam's particular tempermant and combination of strengths and weaknesses made him a much better candidate for complete takeover by the demon . . . William's make him a much better candidate for complete take over by Buffy (which never happens to Angel).>>> |
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Post by Alice on Oct 10, 2003 14:44:09 GMT -5
Lee - at 58, I swear I've been a nerd longer than anyone on the board - and possibly in the county in which I live. See: the county in which I live. Only a nerd would write it that way! Besides, I can tell the difference between a nerd and a geek, remember? ;D I was listening to an Irish radio show the other day and there was someone being interviewed about Dr. Who and other cult Sci Fi. He had brought a bunch of clips with him to the studio to play. The host told him he'd gone from anorak straight on to duffel coat in the geek o meter. I thought that was really funny, but I think it's a regional reference. Do you guys think it's funny? |
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 10, 2003 14:55:48 GMT -5
NAN - Thanx much for your compliments on my post #369 in the last Part about differences between Spike and Angel. I should have also mentioned that Angel's complete acceptance of his role as a Champion of higher powers is connected to his considerable leadership skills. He is now coping with the loneliness and distance that great commercial/corporate power brings in addition to the pressures of Championhood and leadership of fighters-against-Evil.
DianeU - you had a good comment in the last Part, comparing Spike or Spike and Angel, to tigers. I have been thinking for a long while that vampires of the quality of Spike and Angel and Darla, i.e. attractive, charismatic, intelligent, remind me of tigers - beautiful wild animals, one likes to observe them, maybe touch them, but though they might be subdued or coerced, they are never, ever completely tame or trustworthy. Exception must be made for Souled, First-free Spike though. [glow=teal,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by missbuffy on Oct 10, 2003 14:57:38 GMT -5
Now this is a bit embarrassing ... there's actually only one of me (first name Sarah, you can probably guess the second). After I checked my password, the login page told me there was an error, and wouldn't let me back in ... so I tried again (being a bit more cunning), and managed to log myself in by my first name (so I wouldn't forget who I am) ... only now there's two of me, and I should probably slink away in shame, and come back in a few months as someone else entirely. Anyway, now I've made such a graceful entrance, perhaps I should say hello, and nice to be here. I've been lurking for quite some time, I'm in England (and English) -- considered signing up some time ago when you were discussing Spike's and Wesley's accents -- so I'm working on a totally different time scale (the board is usually deserted when I read it). And I won't see the new series till January, but I am thoroughly spoiled (and yes, I understand the rules on that), so I'm finding all the discussions really interesting. I decided to come out from behind the sofa because this seems like such a friendly group -- I really appreciate the fact that you disagree in such a civilised way -- and that's kind of it really. I would just add, though, that I sympathise with how Rob feels about Xander because I really miss Giles (and did throughout Series 7, though he finally got a couple of great lines in Chosen). But without knowing any of you, and so being wholly objective about it, I've never noticed any bitterness in his/your posts, and I agree that the male perspective adds a great deal to discussions. The greater the spread of views the better. Sarah Hi Sarah, *big wave* That is a great story! ;D Those graceful enterances are popular around here, you'll fit right in! (Ask Patti about when they moved the hot tub. ) Anyway, just wanted to say welcome and it sounds like you will have lots of interesting stuff to add to our discussions so keep posting.  |
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 14:59:23 GMT -5
I'm really enjoying the discussion this time on the review discussion thread (Angel's Investigations). Although I appreciate the kind words about the review, what I'm enjoying even more are things being brought out that I missed (like the fact that Harmony was present...just didn't think about it, since Spike didn't really react to her at all), and differences of opinion, like Spring's contention that Spike never considered Hainsley's plan at all and informed Angel of his plan to trap Hainsley somewhere between the bedroom scene we see and arriving at the cemetary. I (ahem) differ. So we're getting into some substantial discussions this time, and that's fun!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 15:01:30 GMT -5
I wonder now, and this just occured to me, whether the main difference between the degrees to which Liam's and William's vamp demons took control of them lies elsewhere. As far as I could tell, Liam received little to no tenderness and nurturing from either of his parents. His father was impatient, short-sighted, perhaps over-religious, and perhaps physically abusive; while Liam's mother seemed a complete nonentity. William's mother adored him and maybe gave him too much love and tenderness, making him the center of her world. William was used to getting nurturing love and tenderness every day from Mother to the point that he really didn't know how to get it elsewhere though he did want to; Liam got no nurturing love or tenderness and sought out emotional fulfillment from brawling in bars or coercing sex from serving/servant girls. Both young men were emotional cripples, BUT WILLIAM WAS USED TO BEING LOVED, and LIAM HAD NO LOVE IN HIS LIFE. Vamp William HAD to have love and nurture in his life and eagerly made Drusilla the object of those feelings and probably got it occasionally from her. He retained the ability to give and receive love and its strong importance in his life. Which would explain his panic when he was chipped; not only could he not feed, he had no lover to go to for help. Soulless Vamp Liam neither expected nor wanted love/nurture in his life and bloodily rejected the Slayer who had been Angel's source for both; Angel's adoration of Buffy was transmuted into obsession and rage by soulless Angelus. [glow=navy,2,300]GAIL [/glow]I think this last point of yours is very acute, Gail, and most likely true. I hadn't thought about this before, or seen it discussed before. So kudos to you, from me! |
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