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Post by John G on Oct 10, 2003 15:25:15 GMT -5
I think this is Spring's post from the last part (it was on page 28 I think, naturally I seem to have forgotten to copy the post#). It follows my comment. It's post #426! Just wanted to mention that I had the impression I had, from the two episodes where we saw the pre-vamp William, that I don't remember any examples of his showing compassion towards anyone. William was sensitive, to be sure, but that sensitivity seemed to be directed towards himself and his mother. He was a rather self-absorbed, naive fellow who hid from an unpleasant world in his own refuge of money, society, and poetry. I have always found it interesting that the vamped William and Liam, whether souled or unsouled, were emotionally much stronger and tougher individuals than they were as humans. The insecurities were still there though, and resurfaced when the souls did, or, in Spike's case, after he was given an artificial 'conscience' in the form of a chip. The souled Angel was such an emotional wreck that he spent decades hiding from the world in horror, skulking in alleys consuming rodents, overwhelmed with guilt and unable to pull himself out of his own pain and guilt until Whistler gave him a shove and an inducement i.e. new-Slayer Buffy. When Angel first came to L.A., he didn't immediately start up his agency and go helping the helpless. He was rather helpless himself, not really knowing how to start up his life as a good guy again in the big city, not able to connect with anyone, until Doyle came along and jump-started Angel's Champion of the Powers career. The newly souled vamp William was also a wreck; though we'll probably never know how much of that despair and madness was caused by the returned soul and how much was caused by the First. I rather think that he had wanted to come back to Sunnydale after getting the soul, that it wasn't just the First moving him around here and there. William might well have stayed the First's pawn if Buffy hadn't found him and sparked the resurgence of his own fierce individuality via his love for her and his faith in her. Angel's discovery of his own role and destiny in the wake of experiencing guilt and horror in the wake of his soul's return is tied to his acceptance of a 'higher' calling, first that of protector of a new Slayer and second of Champion of the Powers That Be. Spike's discovery of his own place in the universe following the shattering resoulement is tied to the importance he has always given Love of a particular woman, said Love being his ruling passion. It has been hinted, in the latter half of Season 7 of BUFFY and perhaps now in AtvS, that Spike might be evolving beyond his original Fool For Love raison d'etre. He was able to care for others besides Buffy; i.e. Dawn, and I think his sacrifice to save the world was done for more than just love of Buffy, though that was part of the motive. And in this coming season, unless the writers are foolish enough to throw Spike back into an all-consuming passion for one woman too quickly, he might even learn that he doesn't have to fall for the first pretty vamp who takes an interest in him, or a Slayer who initially despises him. Good points, though, about whether pre-vamp Liam's lack of emotional strength made him easier prey for takeover by his demon. I wonder now, and this just occured to me, whether the main difference between the degrees to which Liam's and William's vamp demons took control of them lies elsewhere. As far as I could tell, Liam received little to no tenderness and nurturing from either of his parents. His father was impatient, short-sighted, perhaps over-religious, and perhaps physically abusive; while Liam's mother seemed a complete nonentity. William's mother adored him and maybe gave him too much love and tenderness, making him the center of her world. William was used to getting nurturing love and tenderness every day from Mother to the point that he really didn't know how to get it elsewhere though he did want to; Liam got no nurturing love or tenderness and sought out emotional fulfillment from brawling in bars or coercing sex from serving/servant girls. Both young men were emotional cripples, BUT WILLIAM WAS USED TO BEING LOVED, and LIAM HAD NO LOVE IN HIS LIFE. Vamp William HAD to have love and nurture in his life and eagerly made Drusilla the object of those feelings and probably got it occasionally from her. He retained the ability to give and receive love and its strong importance in his life. Which would explain his panic when he was chipped; not only could he not feed, he had no lover to go to for help. Soulless Vamp Liam neither expected nor wanted love/nurture in his life and bloodily rejected the Slayer who had been Angel's source for both; Angel's adoration of Buffy was transmuted into obsession and rage by soulless Angelus. [glow=navy,2,300]GAIL [/glow]<<<<Possible. Though I think we get more messages that suggest that William was stronger than Liam (rather than Spike's demon is weaker). I don't mean that William was stronger than Liam in any general way. William was quite the wimp in many ways, of course. I'm thinking of the way Angel tells Buffy that it's "the man in him" that needs killing" and that he's "weak," it's what he's "always been." I think this is - in part - an explanation for why the demon takes Liam over so utterly. William, despite his wimpiness, was a very ultra-sensitive guy whose humanity was very strong within him - he had a strong moral compass and compassion for others, etc. His weaknesses weren't weaknesses of the flesh. He's was a fool for love, and he was insecure, etc. Anyhow - I thought Liam's particular tempermant and combination of strengths and weaknesses made him a much better candidate for complete takeover by the demon . . . William's make him a much better candidate for complete take over by Buffy (which never happens to Angel).>>> "Smart chicks are so hot!" I really like what you wrote Gail!
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Oct 10, 2003 15:27:33 GMT -5
Lee - at 58, I swear I've been a nerd longer than anyone on the board - and possibly in the county in which I live. See: the county in which I live. Only a nerd would write it that way! Besides, I can tell the difference between a nerd and a geek, remember? ;D At 55, and the third oldest (we know who's second, DON'T we)nerd on the board, I second that.
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Post by William the Bloody on Oct 10, 2003 15:28:31 GMT -5
Our very own "IT" girl (stands for internet technician...doncha know?) Rae has submitted her review of Episode II: Attack of the Snark...errr..sorry, thats Ep. 2: Just Rewards. Insightful, fun and direct, this should be a must-read for everyone.
So, make a date with our "IT" girl. She'll show you a good time. Read JUST REWARDS? in My Take: Another Angelic Look by Rae Hanson. Only on the S'cubie Website.
Vlad, TA, tp
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Post by S'ewing S'cubie on Oct 10, 2003 15:29:02 GMT -5
Does being an antedeluvian hippie count toward being a nerd? Or are they antithetical, makd? If the former, I got you beat, cards and spades (another antedeluvian phrase: from the game Spades ((Duh)). Aren't antedeluvian. Only antebellum. Or, as my son was once heard to say, "He's so old he remembers the War Between the States... ...Athens and Sparta.
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 10, 2003 15:32:13 GMT -5
Mwahahaha! We're learning spinning back kicks right now... so those Spuffies better not stand behind me. HA HA!!! That's what I'm talking about!!
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 10, 2003 15:32:43 GMT -5
"Smart chicks are so hot!" I really like what you wrote Gail! Thanx, John! So are smart guys, as I'm sure Vicky can attest. (how is Vicky, btw). I must note that most of the "Smart chicks" on this board could probably say in one post what it takes me three or four to articulate; I've always been over-verbose. GAIL
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 10, 2003 15:35:24 GMT -5
Though I'd be delighted to stay and post all afternoon/evening, I have to finish packing and hit the road. I'm off to Maine for most of the weekend, will be back late Sunday night.
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND, EVERYBODY!
[shadow=brown,left,300]GAIL ;D[/shadow]
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 10, 2003 15:37:08 GMT -5
Our very own "IT" girl (stands for internet technician...doncha know?) Rae has submitted her review of Episode II: Attack of the Snark...errr..sorry, thats Ep. 2: Just Rewards. Insightful, fun and direct, this should be a must-read for everyone. So, make a date with our "IT" girl. She'll show you a good time. Read JUST REWARDS? in My Take: Another Angelic Look by Rae Hanson. Only on the S'cubie Website. Vlad, TA, tp Thanks for the intro, Vlad... I'm not sure how good a time I'll show everyone but I could use a few dates
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Post by raenstorm on Oct 10, 2003 15:38:06 GMT -5
Though I'd be delighted to stay and post all afternoon/evening, I have to finish packing and hit the road. I'm off to Maine for most of the weekend, will be back late Sunday night.
HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND, EVERYBODY! [shadow=brown,left,300]GAIL ;D[/shadow] Lucky duck! Wave hello to my birth place, will ya? Hope you have a great time Gail
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Post by Sarah on Oct 10, 2003 15:38:48 GMT -5
Sarah Welcome to the BEST board in town - with the smartest and funniest posters anywhere (except for me; I'm a nerd.) When did you start watching Buffy or Angel? Thank you -- this is great! Maybe I'll join as even more people so everyone keeps saying nice things. I started watching Buffy halfway through series 1, bullied into it by my (then) teenage son; got hooked series 2, watched ever since. I've always watched Angel, though not with the same obsessiveness degree of interest, especially as it was shown very unreliably on its first outings here, and hard to find in the schedules. But I never minded missing it the way I minded if I missed Buffy. However, I became attached (if only!) to Spike very early on, so I'm really looking forward to seeing this series.
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 10, 2003 15:40:01 GMT -5
Well, waiting to hear EG's stories, but don't knock yourself Lee. You sound like a hoot - but back in the day I bet I would have been mucho intimidated. And besides, every duo needs the wacky character. Think Mel Gibson in Lethal Weapon. I'm the wacky character, I'm the wacky character!! WHOO-HOO!!! I told Mom and Dad my scrappiness would someday make them proud - and now it has. Although I'm sure they're still waiting on that day. ;D Just the other day my mom and I were reminiscing about this one particular church my dad served where I was kicked out of Sunday School. I would always argue with the teacher, get in fights...... a real shining example to the other children.
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Post by makd on Oct 10, 2003 15:40:58 GMT -5
Aren't antedeluvian. Only antebellum. Or, as my son was once heard to say, "He's so old he remembers the War Between the States... ...Athens and Sparta. My own preference is: I'm older than dirt. Ain't nobody fighting with that!
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Post by makd on Oct 10, 2003 15:42:42 GMT -5
I'm the wacky character, I'm the wacky character!! WHOO-HOO!!! I told Mom and Dad my scrappiness would someday make them proud - and now it has. Although I'm sure they're still waiting on that day. ;D Just the other day my mom and I were reminiscing about this one particular church my dad served where I was kicked out of Sunday School. I would always argue with the teacher, get in fights...... a real shining example to the other children. and again, the pride!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 15:43:10 GMT -5
I'm posting this for Deana (SpikesLoveSlave), who put it as a comment on my Live Journal announcement about my reviews being "syndicated." I thought others might be interested in her thought. Although it does deal in part with my review, most of it is her own ideas, so I'd prefer to put it here rather than the AI thread, so she can find it more easily and see comments (if any) that it provokes. I have her permission to post it here on her behalf. Nan __________________________________________________________________ I meant to tell you I really liked the essay, and I just read the one you wrote for 'Just Rewards'. Is it just me and my SpikeAddled brain, or were there some anvils in that ep and some parallels to 'Beneath You'? Both BY and JR are the second eps of their seasons. BY had that now-telling, snide question from Buffy to Spike "Since when did you become champion of the people?", and in JR we have validation of the sire line for Darla's branch of the Aurelius tree: Angel is Spike's Grandsire, hence Angel had a hand in making Spike what he is. Angel's conflicted look at Spike's comment was very telling (in my wild imagination) and somehow I can't shake the notion that whatever happens to Spike ~ recorporealization, Shansu, or final death/Hell/oblivion, will be by Angel's hand. The other parallel b/w BY and JR is the final act. In BY, a tormented Spike reveals the existence of his soul to Buffy and, as she watches (soon tearily), he asks if it can be over, if they can rest now, as he drapes himself over the cross. In JR, he comes to Fred, similarly vulnerable, and shares his terror at what he thinks/feels is happening to him. But, rather than begging for rest, he wants help ~ he wants to live. He doesn't want to go to Hell (which has lots of canonical quagmires in consideration of what culpability of the soul has in relation to the demon's actions). Where BY foreshadowed Spike's death, this scene seems to hint at the opposite for Spike: Life. And how is life restored to a vampire with a soul.... ? I liked your interpretation as to why Spike would go to Fred rather than Wes, though I found you ascribed a bit too much manipulative motivation for it (that Spike knows how to charm the gals and work at getting what he wants from them moreso than men). I agree that he can be a bit of a sly fox and does wheedle/flirt to get what he wants, on occasion, but again, his obvious sincerity and openness with Fred over his situation, knowing she was the most sympathetic to his plight (remember, Wes thought it might be the humane thing to do, 'killing' Spike), and sensing in her the power and smarts to get things done (slight echoes of his pep talk to Buffy, in that he sees what - and in whom - strengths reside. Fred is his best shot ~ she is 'the One', if you will. Okay, ramble over. Sorry if it's too long ~ I haven't learned all the neat tricks on how to cut my posts yet. Deana
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 10, 2003 15:44:33 GMT -5
My own preference is: I'm older than dirt. Ain't nobody fighting with that! My brother's line to our mom was that she did better in chemistry than he did because when she went to school, there were only four elements: earth, air, water, and fire.
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