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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 8:54:25 GMT -5
Welcome to the Soulful Spike Society part 56 1/2. You might be wondering about the name -- Patti will be opening a new thread tonight with the airing of anew Angel episode, so considering this one will have a short life, it didn't seem proper for it to be a full-fledged section of it's own. But Moloch demanded its creation by wreaking havoc in Part 56. However, mini-section or not, the rules still apply. Respect those who post among you, treating them as you would want them to treat you. And if you want to discuss something that has yet to air on AtS (even the tiniest little "oh they won't mind" tidbit), please post it in the appropriate spoilers section, not on the main board. If this is your first visit to our hallowed board, we welcome you to our ranks. You do not have to be a Spike-a-holic to join us (I'm certainly not one). We have Angel fans, Willow fans, Xander fans .... even a Kennedy fan, but he's seeking professional help for his affliction. If you'd like to learn more about us, check out www.soulfulspike.com, our main website, easily accesible from the link at the bottom of every page. And with that, let the posting begin!
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Post by Sandy - lparish on Oct 22, 2003 8:55:27 GMT -5
Number first?
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Post by Sandy - lparish on Oct 22, 2003 9:04:33 GMT -5
Okay...yea me!
DAVE said:
I've beat this horse before, but I don't think I've made myself clear. Angel is very clear on how vamps are made. BtVS has said this is how it's done, but has so many vamps popping out of graves that it becomes unclear to me that this method is being followed at all times. It appears at times that just being bitten is enough to make a vamp. As I rewatch the eps I have paid more attention to this, but still feel like BtVS is vague on this, I guess, so Buffy has place to be and a reason to be there to patrol at night.
So...in Sunnydale, because it is on a Hellmouth, we are to assume that the vamps there, are making that many other vamps.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 9:17:13 GMT -5
Okay...yea me! DAVE said: I've beat this horse before, but I don't think I've made myself clear. Angel is very clear on how vamps are made. BtVS has said this is how it's done, but has so many vamps popping out of graves that it becomes unclear to me that this method is being followed at all times. It appears at times that just being bitten is enough to make a vamp. As I rewatch the eps I have paid more attention to this, but still feel like BtVS is vague on this, I guess, so Buffy has place to be and a reason to be there to patrol at night. So...in Sunnydale, because it is on a Hellmouth, we are to assume that the vamps there, are making that many other vamps. I do agree that there seem to be an inordinate amount of vampires running around Sunnydale, or at least there were when Sunnydale actually existed as more than a really big crater (ever wonder if that's really how the Grand Canyon got started?). Perhaps there are a lot of junior vampires running around under the mistaken impression that by siring an army of vamps, they'll all be loyal to their sire like in Dracula (As Angel proved when he staked his sire, Darla, that isn't the case in the Buffyverse, though). But the question remains that in a town as small as Sunnydale, it appears that the demon population seems to outnumber the human population considerably. And with all the sirings that happen, somehow the tiny hamlet of Sunnydale does manage to still have a human population at all -- should have dried up a long time ago. Guess it must be those incredibly low property values for southern California that keep new victims moving in. Still, the question remains how in a town where the demons clearly outnumber the humans and people are dying as fast as they can move in to the town, no human appears to be aware of Sunnydale's nightlife (operating word, "appears"). But you are right, even with the amazing number of vamps being sired, BtVS has been very clear about the need to exchange blood between the victim and the sire both ways for someone to turn. Buffy said it in "Welcome to the Hellmouth", and on occassion, we've seen it happen (such as Darla's siring of Angelus or Drusilla's re-siring of Darla). In the other occassions when we didn't see it, doesn't mean it didn't happen off-camera.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 9:21:35 GMT -5
Here's something that I think we've discussed but is still always fun to munch on ....
How come sometimes it seems to only take a few hours for a vampire to die and then be reborn, whereas other times it's obviously days that have passed since the vampire is burried and has to claw their way out of the grave? Buffy has intercepted vampires at the funeral home as well as the cemetary -- I wonder how she seems to know when a vamp will rise (on the occassion when she seems to be waiting for a particular vamp to rise rather than just a random patrol) since the length does seem to be somewhat random.
Also, how is it a vampire isn't affected by the embalming process? On Angel, we meet a vampire who is immortal for a time because he had his heart removed (after a few days of immortality, he dusts because of the lack of a heart). Doesn't the embalming process generally include the removal of internal organs, such as the heart?
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 22, 2003 9:45:03 GMT -5
[/b] I think it was also very important that the episode showcase Riley and his new wife, to show Buffy's initial desire to hook back up with her former lover. She never loved Riley, but she was closer to loving Riley than she was to Spike at the time, hence her desire to want to leave everything behind and run off with Riley. Riley also offered Buffy a chance to escape -- she could join his demon-fighting team and leave Sunnydale far behind. Of course, she couldn't leave herself behind; wherever she went, there she would be -- and it was herself she really wanted to escape.
So the episode was about Buffy's finally coming to the realization of how screwed up she was, and beginning to take steps toward becoming as she once was (hence the double-entendre title). To do this, we had to have two elements -- Riley had to come back to town so Buffy could fantasize momentarily about leaving with him (with wife in tow, so Buffy couldn't run off afterall), and Buffy also had to be smacked in the face with the reality of Spike was still not the upstanding citizen that she needed to be with.
In the end, it was a seriously flawed story, quite hokey at many points. But it did accomplish all it set out to do.[/quote]
Closer to loving Riley than Spike? This was never true, even before Season 6, much as Buffy always wanted it to be. Not that Buffy wasn't in total denial most times, but what Spike says to Riley in As You Were is very true: "She had a bit of a thing for me, even when she was shagging you."
And I always thought Buffy's statement to Riley sometime in Season 5, about "If I wanted someone with super-strength, I'd be dating Spike," was quite inadvertently telling, and I don't think it reassured Riley the way she meant it to.
And in Fool For Love, though Buffy is very resolute, and she very definitely means it when she turns Spike down, there is such a current between Buffy & Spike - way beyond anything she ever manages to work up for Riley. But this is before Buffy's deep depression, and she has the strength to fight her attraction and do the right thing.
When Riley returns in Season 6, he represents a possible lifeline to a deeply desperate and despairing Buffy. Spike - Spike, no matter how she feels about him, is a dead end (literally). He's a deathline. Buffy looks at Riley and she sees a possible "knight on white horse," just when she feels like she needs one the most.
If Riley had actually come to sweep her away on a white horse, and she had climbed aboard, she'd have been bored and sorry - and knocking at the crypt door - within two weeks.
But I do agree on what the episode accomplished: Buffy beginning to realize that she wants that lifeline, that she needs that lifeline, and that Spike can't help her out of the pit of death. He is death, and her attraction to him in Season 6 is very much about her deathwish.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 22, 2003 9:49:16 GMT -5
I've been trying to remember where I read this, but I was under the impression that most vampire victims don't plan to be turned.
My impression is that the dying, pretty much drained victim is fed the vamp's blood, without the victim's consent. If you're dying, and someone puts a liquid into your mouth that makes you feel stronger, you're going to swallow it without worrying about what it is. I'd say that's what happened with William, and probably Liam - they were turned without their full knowledge and consent. It was, if anything, a survival instinct rather than a conscious choice.
There are people who chose to be turned; Ford, for example. In most cases, though, I'd guess it wasn't the dearest dream of the victim to wake up undead. I'm sure the little boy who became the Annoying One didn't chose his destiny; it was forced upon him.
Anywhoo, that's my thoughts on the subject, for what they're worth.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 22, 2003 9:53:58 GMT -5
Can I just say, that is a great selection of pictures! I thought I'd made my mind up, but I really had to think again.
That picture of JW is really... compelling. The man has the most penetrating eyes. I love guys with good eyes (and other attributes as well). Besides, he is the world-creator of us, after all. Nice one (also the caption), Rae!
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 9:57:21 GMT -5
I've been trying to remember where I read this, but I was under the impression that most vampire victims don't plan to be turned. My impression is that the dying, pretty much drained victim is fed the vamp's blood, without the victim's consent. If you're dying, and someone puts a liquid into your mouth that makes you feel stronger, you're going to swallow it without worrying about what it is. I'd say that's what happened with William, and probably Liam - they were turned without their full knowledge and consent. It was, if anything, a survival instinct rather than a conscious choice. There are people who chose to be turned; Ford, for example. In most cases, though, I'd guess it wasn't the dearest dream of the victim to wake up undead. I'm sure the little boy who became the Annoying One didn't chose his destiny; it was forced upon him. Anywhoo, that's my thoughts on the subject, for what they're worth. You read that here in a previous discussion on a previous board. And it is generally accepted amongst the S'cubies to be the case; I also believe that's Joss' thinking, however it's never been implicitly expressed as such on the show, i.e., at no point has a character had a struggle with their participation in being turned and had to be reminded that they were near death, etc.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 22, 2003 10:02:21 GMT -5
You read that here in a previous discussion on a previous board. And it is generally accepted amongst the S'cubies to be the case; I also believe that's Joss' thinking, however it's never been implicitly expressed as such on the show, i.e., at no point has a character had a struggle with their participation in being turned and had to be reminded that they were near death, etc. Actually, I was thinking I'd read it in a book (probably Dracula), but I probably ran across it here too.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 10:26:41 GMT -5
Actually, I was thinking I'd read it in a book (probably Dracula), but I probably ran across it here too. It's been a while since I read Dracula, but as I recall, the way to turn a person in that book was for the vampire to drink them three times; the person being sired did not have to return the favor. The exchange of fluids is more prevelant in Anne Rice novels, which Joss drew from more than he did Bram Stoker in creating the Buffy lore.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 22, 2003 10:37:18 GMT -5
It's been a while since I read Dracula, but as I recall, the way to turn a person in that book was for the vampire to drink them three times; the person being sired did not have to return the favor. The exchange of fluids is more prevelant in Anne Rice novels, which Joss drew from more than he did Bram Stoker in creating the Buffy lore. Must have been some other vampire book then, I've never read any Anne Rice. I have read a lot of vampire fiction by other authors. It was probably Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, then - I was really into her work for a while. Flippersmack, now it's going to bother me until I track it down - like having a song stuck in your head. Oh well, that's my problem.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 10:44:06 GMT -5
Must have been some other vampire book then, I've never read any Anne Rice. I have read a lot of vampire fiction by other authors. It was probably Chelsea Quinn Yarbro, then - I was really into her work for a while. Flippersmack, now it's going to bother me until I track it down - like having a song stuck in your head. Oh well, that's my problem. Do note that while it's lore in Anne Rice's novels, I don't mean to give her credit for developing it. It could be in plenty of other works by other authors as well. I'm just pretty certain that Bram Stoker isn't one of them.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 11:02:53 GMT -5
Ten people on (including three guests), and nobody is saying jack. What's up with that?
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Post by karalee on Oct 22, 2003 11:08:08 GMT -5
Ten people on (including three guests), and nobody is saying jack. What's up with that? I keep trying to, but Piper started pulling up the other day so every time I sit down her little head pops up over the gate blocking the dining room. She starts crying and then I have to pick her up. I think it's time to send her to kindergarten. I have no idea where to put the commas in that first sentence
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