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Post by Vlad on Oct 22, 2003 11:48:48 GMT -5
Vald, I loved your comments. You don't chime in often, but when you do, it's always a fun read. I guess the saying is true that it takes one to know one, so when the topic of discussion is vampires .... Vald's discussion of Liam's currousing ways leading to his siring really struck me. I can't help but think that part of the reason Angel and Spike might feel remorse (and Angel more than Spike), draws from the time period that much of the early vampire lore that we're familiar with in the Western World was written. The writers weren't writing purely for the sake of entertainment, but there was also almost always a moral embedded in the story, even if one had to look for it. Mary Shelley, for example, was sending a warning to scientists who dared to play God when she wrote Frankenstein. The earliest popular vampire writing (and still one of the most popular) of our time was Bram Stoker's Dracula. While much of Joss Whedon's lore comes from later authors like Anne Rice, a good portion of the lore still dates back to Stoker's novel because that's where a lot of the authors of today drew from. And when you examine the symobolism of Stoker's famous novel, there's definitely a message there. For example, the fact that items like crosses and holy water could defend against a vampire was symbolic of how putting your faith in God could protect you against the evils of this world. More to the point of this discussion is some of the limitations placed on vampires in Stoker lore. Vampires are restricted to the night, but they cannot enter a residence without the permission of the resident. At the time, really the only people out after dark were generally curousers like Liam, in search of a pint or a wench -- the good citizens were safe at home with their families, generally tucked in bed early so they could rise early for a decent day's hard work. As Vlad noted, Liam's currousing led to his being sired. He was out seeking a pint and a wench. He found both, but the latter proved to be his downfall. Had he listenned and obeyed his father (such as the Ten Commandments tell us to do), he never would have been sired because he'd have been home with his family where he belonged. Now in William's case, it was a different story -- by the time William came along, London had electric lights and the like, so a good person like William could be out at night. But still, it was more proper to be at home after dark, especially when one is nursing a sick mother. And I'm sure there's a degree of pain for Spike that what drove him into the street in the first place was being mocked by his friends and spurned by the object of his affections; his anger led him right into Drusilla's waiting bosom. Thanks Dave! You summed up my thoughts nicely and succinctly. I never seem to be able to use 2 words where 10 manage to fit. I agree that the horror stories were moral tales, told to scare folks into being good, to understanding the pitfalls of "bad choices" My personal viewpoint on the Bible has always been thus. No, not htat it's a horror story, but that its an alegorical tale. Pretty much whether a person believes in God or not, if htey follow the general wisdom in the Bible, the world would be a much better place. I really do think that Joss toys with these ideas constantly. He didn't jsut create the Buffyverse for the "fun" of it. I haven't seen anything spring from his mind that didn't ultimately end up wanting to explore the nature of good and evil, right and wrong.. and how sometimes these things are so jumbled up that it's impossible to tell what's right or pick sides. Not only BtVS and AtS, but also Firefly. That show was also really heading down that path. How I miss it!... Vlad
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Post by Karen on Oct 22, 2003 11:52:37 GMT -5
That message that we get from BtVS and I suspect, here in AtS as well, that "it's all written" and "it's all under your control" is really the same message we get from real life. I mean - you control everything and you control absolutely nothing; you're the center of your universe and you're an insignificant, infintesimally small speck in a boundless universe; you create your environment and your environment creates you; you choose your own path, yet the destinations all seem predetermined. It seems that it is true that we are Masters of our Fate (Captains of our Soul) AND that any power we believe ourselves to possess is entirely illusional. Don't ask me how this should be, I can only tell you that this seems to me to be so: I am completely responsible for where I stand today, AND I was carried powerlessly along by the irresistable forces of fate. The more life proves to me I have no control - the more surprises, the more unexpected joys and tragedies - the more in control, the more confident and self-possessed I feel. The more control I give up, the more I have. I've been catching up, and really enjoying this discussion (as per usual). I agree Spring, was it John Lennon who sung that "life is what happens to us when we're busy making other plans?" So true! On the whole - why should Spike be standing over a Hell Dimension after he saved the world? Why not? I mean, I love Spike, but does one act of goodness atone for a lifetime of bad? But even without considering that, who's to say what entity is throwing Spike back into the Hell Dimension? Even tho he is ensouled, the demon is still there inside of Spike. I'm not making myself very clear, but anyway - totally enjoying confusing myself and everyone else. *L*
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Post by Karen on Oct 22, 2003 11:54:02 GMT -5
Thanks Dave! You summed up my thoughts nicely and succinctly. I never seem to be able to use 2 words where 10 manage to fit. I agree that the horror stories were moral tales, told to scare folks into being good, to understanding the pitfalls of "bad choices" My persoanl viewpoint on the bible has always been thus. No, not htat it's a horror story, but that its an alegorical tale. Pretty much whether a person believes in god or not, if htey follow the general wisdom in the Bibile, the world would be a much better place. I really do think that Joss toys with these ideas constantly. He didn't jsut create the Buffyverse for the "fun" of it. I haven't seen anything spring from his mind that didn't ultimately end up wanting to explore the nature of good and evil, right and wrong.. and how sometimes these things are so jumbled up that it's impossible to tell what's right or pick sides. Not only BtVS and AtS, but also Firefly. That show was also really heading down that path. How I miss it!...Vlad Thanks for reminding me - gotta put that Firefly DVD on my Christmas list!
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 22, 2003 11:54:16 GMT -5
You too? I've been under the weather the last couple of days -- fighting a cold and losing the fight -- and it's got me in a real bitchy mood. Unfortunately, I haven't been sick. I'm just mean. Another attorney (who also happens to be a good friend) and I have been arguing about one of the cases I'm working on in which he's the defense attorney. So, that has put me in a fiesty mood. I dared him to piss me off (thankfully, he is a good friend so we can tease each other)- he hasn't taken the dare yet but I have a feeling he will after lunch. Ahhh....the joys of the law.
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 22, 2003 11:55:34 GMT -5
Unfortunately, I haven't been sick. I'm just mean. Another attorney (who also happens to be a good friend) and I have been arguing about one of the cases I'm working on in which he's the defense attorney. So, that has put me in a fiesty mood. I dared him to piss me off (thankfully, he is a good friend so we can tease each other)- he hasn't taken the dare yet but I have a feeling he will after lunch. Ahhh....the joys of the law. Ugh, the law. I scoff at thee. Guess that makes me a scofflaw.
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 22, 2003 11:56:46 GMT -5
I've been catching up, and really enjoying this discussion (as per usual). I agree Spring, was it John Lennon who sung that "life is what happens to us when we're busy making other plans?" So true! On the whole - why should Spike be standing over a Hell Dimension after he saved the world? Why not? I mean, I love Spike, but does one act of goodness atone for a lifetime of bad? But even without considering that, who's to say what entity is throwing Spike back into the Hell Dimension? Even tho he is ensouled, the demon is still there inside of Spike. I'm not making myself very clear, but anyway - totally enjoying confusing myself and everyone else. *L* It was the late, great John Lennon who sang those words in "Beautiful Boy (Darling Boy)" - such a great song.
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Post by LeeHollins on Oct 22, 2003 11:57:14 GMT -5
Ugh, the law. I scoff at thee. Guess that makes me a scofflaw. HA HA HA!!!! Thanks, Dave - I needed that!
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Post by Betsy on Oct 22, 2003 11:58:15 GMT -5
What the subject line says ;D
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Post by Betsy on Oct 22, 2003 11:59:20 GMT -5
On the whole - why should Spike be standing over a Hell Dimension after he saved the world? Why not? I mean, I love Spike, but does one act of goodness atone for a lifetime of bad? But even without considering that, who's to say what entity is throwing Spike back into the Hell Dimension? Even tho he is ensouled, the demon is still there inside of Spike. Oh thank God . . . this is what I've been thinking ever since he came back.
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Post by Betsy on Oct 22, 2003 12:02:59 GMT -5
I posted a boatload of new avatars (3 threads worth) based on pics I got on a new pictures I purchased off of ebay. Enjoy and Ihope you can use some of them.
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Post by Queen E on Oct 22, 2003 12:04:48 GMT -5
Vampires: Evil, sinners, or just bad choices? [/u] Let's look at the following quotes from BtVS: Clearly the two above statements are "confusing." Later we do find out that Willow does indeed share personality traits with her "vampire" self. I take Buffy's final statement "but for the grace of getting bit" as "shorthand" to mean the entire vampire siring process and so, don't really take issue with that. I hold to the idea that, indeed, it is the guilt that a person places upon themselves for the actions that were committed while their souls were out. And I can't help but believe it is a combination of things. The fact is that their personalities do indeed harbor the evils that their vampire selves release: subconscious desires that we perceive to be "sins." The fact is that both William and Liam acquiesced to something they surely knew was not "good." If it's not good, it's a sin. Remember, we aren't talking the fuzzy morals of today. We are talking a long time ago, Victorian age and before. Both of these future vampires knew that giving in was wrong, at least a little. Liam was out whoring and if I remember correctly, was about to steal to support his debaucherous ways. William himself was responding out of feelings of worthlessness... neither were doing "good." Now, as Kerrie said: Angel feels guilt. His life of moral wrongs led to him being sired. If he had been good and been home with his family that night, not out sinning, then he would never have become Angelus. It's akin to a drunk driver hitting a bus of folks and killing them. The drunk driver wasn't intending on killing people when he started drinking. He wasn't thinking about that at all. However, he knows that the loss of control was the result of him letting it happen. Perhaps he is a sick person... couldn't control the desire to drink. But don't tell me that person, after sobering up and finding out what happened, will not feel guilt. I know I would. I think most people would. Our courts will say you were guilty. They will say you made that choice to drink in the first place. Everyone around you will feel you did wrong. I think Angel very much feels that type of guilt. Spike on the other hand... William wasn't nearly the "bad" person that Liam was. He chose to drink from Dru because she offered him respect and maybe love. He was only guilty of not looking deeper; accepting what was offered too quickly because it was what he so dearly wanted. Now, we get to the Spike post-soul. Spike doesn't seem to have as much a problem regrouping. He understands that the evil his soulless vampire-self did was not his fault. He wasn't doing anything so wrong when he acquiesced. He is more the traveler on a long trip that dozed off at the wheel smacking the bus. The same number of people died as in the drunk driver's case and he feels terrible about it, but it was never his intent... he never realized he was so sleepy while driving. He wasn't out recklessly carousing. He was simply let down by his normal human body. The courts would call it an unfortunate accident; people would feel sympathetic to his plight because everyone has succumbed to sleep accidentally at some point. It's just horrible luck. So while Spike does feel horrible for what happened, and will in the future try to make sure he doesn't "drowse off", he does understand that the whole thing wasn't due to his "choices" so much. I think this explains nicely the differences between Spike and Angel and the whole guilt issue. Mainly it does go to the concept that Angel feels guilty because, upon examination, he knows he made horrible choices. Spike doesn't feel nearly so guilty because the choice he made was not as "clearly bad." But in both cases, both do feel "guilt" and both will endeavor in the future never to make the same mistakes. The degrees are just drastically different. Shanno stated: I agree that it isn't right to me that Spike be judged for the sins committed while he was a vampire and actually I am surprised that he should be standing over the crevasse into Hell. We were never given the impression that William was all that bad before he was turned, and once he was re-souled he endeavored consistently to do the right things which finally left him in the position to sacrifice his life for the lives of others. I would call this a supremely good act. True, his wanting to wear the amulet wasn't "wholly" a good act... he wanted to impress Buffy. But it was definitely inferred that he could have "stopped the process" or that at least he thought it was possible. I find the whole thing puzzling somewhat myself. My best guess is that the PTB are behind it. Perhaps Spike wasn't supposed to have worn the Liz Taylor amulet after all. They maybe returned him to the world because it wasn't "his time." I personally believe from what I have been shown so far that Spike fades every time HE questions the Powers That Be. Every time he makes light of his having a soul or complaining that it isn't "fair." Perhaps the PTB are trying to get through to him that it's not his role to "question" That it is by THEIR grace that he lives at all. Thing is... that would imply that people have "fates." Of course, the prophecies rampant thru both shows imply this. The Bible itself kinda says that the story has already been written. Since Joss is a self-proclaimed atheist, maybe this is what he is trying to point out: the whole absurdity of "having self will" while at the same time "it's already been written." Spike is the perfect object with which to examine this paradox . His whole personality is that he is in control. What was it he was singing as he rumbled off into the horizon in Lover's Walk? "I did it MY way?" We identify his strong will in the show as part of his character. Angel is his perfect antithesis, because he hopes that indeed its all been written. According to prophesy, he will sanshu, getting what he wants most: redemption and to be normal again. Both characters find strength in their philosophies most of the time. Occasionally it seems to be each vamp's worst downfall. I agree that it is all pretty puzzling. I suspect that the episode tonight will answer some questions in this area (while probably raising even more...it's Whedonverse after all. *L*) But, hey, isn't it great that we have a show that's examining something like this...and not spoonfeeding it, but instead letting us think about it. I imagine not a one of us is going to completely like where it goes. But at least it's "honest thought." Vlad, thoughtful viewer[/quote] Damn, Vlad! Have you thought about writing a proposal on this for the buffy conference?
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 22, 2003 12:05:40 GMT -5
Patti- <snip> While ensouled Spike was consumed with guilt for all his past victims, he didn't consider Nicki one of them. As a Slayer he viewed her as an opposing warrior whom he killed in a fair fight. I think Spike knew he was wrong to kill Nikki, or he wouldn't have spared Wood. But he wasn't going to give an inch to Wood - he came from a position of strength all the way. He was in a fight for his life, and he gave Wood a very, very, very, unambiguous message. Spike's a seasoned warrior, and he handles himself as a seasoned warrior, with Wood - and that includes not betraying a speck of remorse or self-doubt, etc. I didn't agree with Spike's "absolution" of himself in Nikki's death, but I did think he did the right thing in presenting it to Wood exactly as he did, when he did. But we've seen enough by the time we get to LMPTM to know that Spike has a developed an independent sense of right and wrong, and the fact that he let Wood live -when he most definitely did not have to - tells us the same thing. I agree it was awkward; I just don't see it as a major thing that took away my enjoyment of the episode. Not that you (or anyone on this board) has done this, but I have seen sooooo much really wild criticism of this ep based on what seems to be such a minor quibble - especially when it had so many great scenes. So I felt compelled to defend it a bit. Buffy does say she "could never trust" Spike enough to love him, but she is a pretty confused Slayer when she says that, and she seems to be grasping for things to say that will get Spike to believe that their relationship HAS to be over. I mean, how many more ways are left for her to trust Spike by that time? She's trusted him with everything, in every way I can think of. And despite what she says here, she has become very complacent about his "evil," and he has too. It isn't just Spike who is shocked and horrified by the AR, Buffy is too - she acts sure of herself and tough when she tells him she should have "stopped him long ago", but she is quavery-voiced, and later she is crying. They both believed Spike when he told her: "I never hurt YOU." They were both wrong.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 22, 2003 12:08:17 GMT -5
I've been catching up, and really enjoying this discussion (as per usual). I agree Spring, was it John Lennon who sung that "life is what happens to us when we're busy making other plans?" So true! On the whole - why should Spike be standing over a Hell Dimension after he saved the world? Why not? I mean, I love Spike, but does one act of goodness atone for a lifetime of bad? But even without considering that, who's to say what entity is throwing Spike back into the Hell Dimension? Even tho he is ensouled, the demon is still there inside of Spike. I'm not making myself very clear, but anyway - totally enjoying confusing myself and everyone else. *L* I suspect that Spike's positioning "over the Hell Dimension" is going to have little to do with what he deserves or doesn't deserve. I don't know why I think that - I just do.
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Post by Betsy on Oct 22, 2003 12:10:01 GMT -5
My new master scubie name . . . thanks for pleading my case Vlad to William the Bloody. If I can ever return the favor, just let me know what I can do. ;D
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Post by Queen E on Oct 22, 2003 12:10:38 GMT -5
I'm feeling fiesty today. Anyone want to scrap? ;D Caraleigh - great to see you back! The guy next to me on the bus this morning was talking on his cellphone really loud, and it was everything I could do not to grab it, smash it, and throw the pieces out the window, then follow up with an actual smack upside the head. But I didn't. I just turned my music up 'til my ears bled. Oh, yeah, I'm in my happy place today.
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