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Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 12:47:40 GMT -5
My answers resulted in" "You have chosen Wesley as Buffy's dream date - Lawrence Watt-Evans salutes you." Hmmm, Wesley? Buffy could pull him out of his funk and give him more lines on the Angel if she were to appear at some point. aha! I've thought, as I've watched Angel in re-runs, that the Angeled Wesley would be terrific for post-chosen Buffy. Whoa..... Just think: rogue demon-hunter/watcher, with a "dark" side, meets slayer. Both are into the rougher sides of sex, former "enemies", but now on the same side.... they could, together, leave a "normal" life (in comparison to the lives they lead with their exes). Oh, yeah! smell a few fanfics there..... The challenge is on!
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Post by Sue on Oct 25, 2003 13:13:03 GMT -5
pre-ordered the book at amazon over the summer. Arrived about 3 weeks ago; it's a terrific book. Lots of wonderful insight, great stuff for weeks of discourse, all written by sci-fi and fantasy writers. Thanks for the endorsement. I'm gonna get it.
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Post by Karen on Oct 25, 2003 13:42:50 GMT -5
aha! I've thought, as I've watched Angel in re-runs, that the Angeled Wesley would be terrific for post-chosen Buffy. Whoa..... Just think: rogue demon-hunter/watcher, with a "dark" side, meets slayer. Both are into the rougher sides of sex, former "enemies", but now on the same side.... they could, together, leave a "normal" life (in comparison to the lives they lead with their exes). Oh, yeah! smell a few fanfics there..... The challenge is on! LOL! ;D ;D Very funny, makd! Um, not quite *ewww*. The new and darker Wesley might just be attractive to Buffy. I don't think Wesley would betray Angel in that way, unless Angel did something really awful to him. I can't wait until the writers delve into Wesley's angst, if they do at all. They need to. His character isn't getting the attention that I'd like.
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Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 14:14:52 GMT -5
I suspect his screen time will start to increase after the previously projected date of JM's leaving for Venetian Heat.
I think the producers wanted to get the Spike story on line and up front first - not just to reassure the pro-spikes but also the anti-spikes, but also to ensure they had enough of JM on tape before he was supposed to go to Italy to make the movie.
The movie being on hold will not, I suspect, affect the shooting schedule. It'll probably just give JM a little breathing time.
I think the episodes that we will start to see about the beginning-middle of November will be more heavily Wes. (They'd have to; he's just about disappeared so far.)
I also suspect the producers/writers are still trying to see how Spike will NOT fit in and where he will eventually be placed to provide team angel with more support.
What Fred said last week is true - once Spike is corporeal, (and has worked out some of the major issues with Angel), he will be one hell of an invincible ally for Angel. I hope Spikey doesn't lose that whole mind control thing he's just learning. That could prove beacoup powerful in a major battle.
What do you think of the idea of Spikey being given control of AI while Angel is running W&H? Wow - that would get Spike out of Angel's hair, and would beef up that huge inferiority complex of his, yeah? It would also allow Spike to use W&H's resources, and still provide an opportunity for Spike to interact with team angel.
oh boy, if I were a writer, what fanfic I would write! lions, and tigers, and spike, and angel, oh my!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Oct 25, 2003 15:13:04 GMT -5
Remember, if you have not yet voted in this weeks POW contest, the polls close at midnight tonight.
Toodles!
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 25, 2003 16:02:20 GMT -5
I originally posted this last night, but I thought I'd repost it, since that part was closed not much later. If you've already read this, feel free to skip on over. Playing catch up as usual.... As I see B/S in S6 as a case of domestic battery, I view Spike's attack as akin to the victim of abuse who lashes out at his/her attacker. It isn't right, but it's understandable. It worries me sometimes that I still believe in B/S, given the dysfunction in S6. On the other hand, B/S in the last half of S7 was sublime. They forgave each other and relied on one another in a healthy way. It bothered me when Giles said "You rely on him, he relies on you." like it was a bad thing. I thought, isn't that what people do? JW had referenced 'The X-Files' before, and B/S reminded me very much of M/S. Their relationship wasn't always smooth sailing either (Scully once shot Mulder, Mulder sometimes took Scully very much for granted), but it was very deep and real. B/S even had a quintessential M/S moment back-to-back down in the old Initiative HQ(complete w/ flashlights!) in The Killer In Me. Who's seen Galaxy Quest? I laughed so hard the first time I saw it I had tears running down my face. It's a funny but loving tribute to fandom. I have been to both Star Trek (not recently, and not in costume) and BtVS cons, 'cuz I'm just that cool! They got it just right. Have to disagree w/Kerrie on Spike being an opportunistic bully. Throwing a few punches at Angel seems reasonable to me, since Angel's spent the entire ep. whining about Spike's presence. D*mn that Spike, he selfishly dies to save the world, then doesn't have the decency to stay properly dead and quit bothering people! I'm glad Fred is still scanning Spike. Not sure what the whole falling temp signifies, but I'm glad they brought it up again, just the same. Could the heat have something to do w/Spike's fiery demise? As for the Spike-haters, I read that rebuttal to The Greater Capacity for Good hoping to find a logical debate. Instead, it was strictly a diatribe. The author (male?) referred to Spike as a walking dildo, and then ended w/some truly appalling (il)logic. He said that all one needed for redemption was a soul and a woman's love. If that were true, Angel would've been redeemed years ago. And the argument that Spike was raping Buffy every time they had sex due to her mental state is patently absurd. Buffy knew what she was doing when she initiated the sexual phase of their relationship. To think that Spike was raping Buffy when in Gone she barged into his crypt, slammed him against a wall, and tore off his shirt is to be so deeply in denial. Besides, I can't think of a single rape victim who would willing nuzzle her rapist's ear.
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 16:06:28 GMT -5
allaboutspike has a link to a promo for a book of essays about season 7. You can got to AAS and look down the left hand column for "Seven Seasons of Buffy" or just go here: www.benbellabooks.com/sevenseasons/frame.htmI know we all needed more Buffy stuff to spend money on. Thanx for the link! I made good use of it, and hope to receive my copy within a few weeks.
GAIL
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Post by Sue on Oct 25, 2003 16:28:44 GMT -5
CNN has been showing the CA fires all day. How close are you guys?
And, strangely, if you go to the website and bring up the world map, then north america--when I drag my mouse over your two names the "nametag" flickers wildly (in and out of Hell?). Everyone else's name and locations come up and stay, but I can't get Anne's or LadyDi's to stabelize. Sunspots or the fires or Moloch?
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Post by Sue on Oct 25, 2003 16:32:30 GMT -5
I've got the book wrapped and addressed, just haven't been out to the post office all week.
Why am I posting this rather than IM'ing, you ask?
Because as of this post I "pass" you into 19th most prolific poster.
It's nice to have goals in life.
Sorry for all the random, off-topic-ness guys. I promise to think of something serious and Spike related...sometime soon.
Random thought: since November is sweeps we should have at least 5 (?) more episodes before re-run hell kicks in around the holidays. Anybody have a projected airing schedule?
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Post by Shan on Oct 25, 2003 16:34:45 GMT -5
... “For all the beauty and wonder of Buffy the Vampire Slayer though, branding itself into our culture and collective hearts, I have noticed one disturbing trend in the series: the emasculation of the male characters. I have a theory about this. My belief is that Buffy is, in fact, her own special breed of vampire. Whereas traditional vampires suck the blood from their victims, Buffy drains the testosterone from the characters she is involved with—this appears to be the true source of the Slayer’s power.” -- Sherrilyn Kenyon, The Search For Spike’s Balls ... The true source of the Slayer's power has nothing to do with testosterone. So little, in fact, that perhaps it does make it *seem* as though she's "stealing" theirs. If being shown that their testosterone is of no use to Buffy makes them look emasculated, that's not a flaw (or even an action) on Buffy's part but on the part of the assumption that one can only be a hero if their Y-chromosome is in overdrive. Shanno
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Post by Kerrie on Oct 25, 2003 16:36:26 GMT -5
Hi. Thanks for the warning, Sue. I am here now. Just about to go and adjust the clocks. Daylight savings started at 2 am here. Good thing - it will be light when I go walking at night. I was walking last night, following some creepy guy who walked slower and slower as we got to the darkest and remotest part of the walk. It turns out he thought I was stalking him! I thought it was funny.
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Post by LadyDi on Oct 25, 2003 16:36:41 GMT -5
That was an all around nice post, LadyDi, but I wanted to comment on the above: I don't think you should worry about yourself for believing in B/S despite the dysfunction of Season 6. If couples didn't hang in there past dysfunctional periods, no one would ever stay together, and the two of them were showing nice recovery. I hold no hope out for B/S though - not based on the dysfunction of Season 6, but based on the fact that I don't think Joss has things set up that way (I really thought the message of "Chosen" was that Buffy is moving on and away from both her vamp-loves) and that SMG isn't going to be coming back for any significant length of time. GILES: I think, when he said that thing about "relying" on each other, he was disapproving based on the fact that he thought the continuining emotional connection was clouding and diminishing Buffy's Slayer-judgment, just when clarity was needed the most. He was wrong about this, but it was easy to see why it might worry him - both logically and emotionally. Buffy loved Spike a lot by the end of Season 7, and Giles could see that. As Buffy's "father," it worried him. As a long-time evil fighter in the fight of his life, it also worried him. Spring, we've had this discussion before, and I understand what you're saying. The way I'm looking at it now, tho' (based on a quote from D. Fury), is if/when Buffy puts in an appearance, there will be no resolution to the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle. Considering there are two vocal and passionate factions involved, it kinda makes sense. That way, both sides can keep their fantasy alive. On a related note, I don't remember who first suggested it, but I'm not totally adverse to a Spike/Anne pairing. I doubt it will happen, since we haven't seen Anne in quite a while, but if they took it slow and easy it could be quite a nice 'ship. Meant to comment last night on Spike's use of "Liam" and forgot. I think it signifies that Spike now considers himself Angel's equal. They are after all, the only two members of an ultra-exclusive club. Angelus used to refer to him as William. Darla and/or Dru (most likely Darla) might have used "Liam" back in the day. What's more, Spike belongs to another oh-so-exclusive club (along w/Buffy): the ultimate sacrifice club. Pretty rarified company, no? Random thought: Angel went to Hell, Buffy to Heaven. Now we have Spike (Mr. Morally Ambiguous) in Limbo. Thought Heaven might be a bit beyond Spike's reach, but figured if any vamp could make it, it'd be him. ;D Played matchmaker for Buffy - care to guess the result? Go on, take a wild stab...
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Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 16:47:23 GMT -5
I originally posted this last night, but I thought I'd repost it, since that part was closed not much later. If you've already read this, feel free to skip on over. Playing catch up as usual.... As I see B/S in S6 as a case of domestic battery, I view Spike's attack as akin to the victim of abuse who lashes out at his/her attacker. It isn't right, but it's understandable. It worries me sometimes that I still believe in B/S, given the dysfunction in S6. On the other hand, B/S in the last half of S7 was sublime. They forgave each other and relied on one another in a healthy way. It bothered me when Giles said "You rely on him, he relies on you." like it was a bad thing. I thought, isn't that what people do? JW had referenced 'The X-Files' before, and B/S reminded me very much of M/S. Their relationship wasn't always smooth sailing either (Scully once shot Mulder, Mulder sometimes took Scully very much for granted), but it was very deep and real. B/S even had a quintessential M/S moment back-to-back down in the old Initiative HQ(complete w/ flashlights!) in The Killer In Me. Who's seen Galaxy Quest? I laughed so hard the first time I saw it I had tears running down my face. It's a funny but loving tribute to fandom. I have been to both Star Trek (not recently, and not in costume) and BtVS cons, 'cuz I'm just that cool! They got it just right. Have to disagree w/Kerrie on Spike being an opportunistic bully. Throwing a few punches at Angel seems reasonable to me, since Angel's spent the entire ep. whining about Spike's presence. D*mn that Spike, he selfishly dies to save the world, then doesn't have the decency to stay properly dead and quit bothering people! I'm glad Fred is still scanning Spike. Not sure what the whole falling temp signifies, but I'm glad they brought it up again, just the same. Could the heat have something to do w/Spike's fiery demise? As for the Spike-haters, I read that rebuttal to The Greater Capacity for Good hoping to find a logical debate. Instead, it was strictly a diatribe. The author (male?) referred to Spike as a walking dildo, and then ended w/some truly appalling (il)logic. He said that all one needed for redemption was a soul and a woman's love. If that were true, Angel would've been redeemed years ago. And the argument that Spike was raping Buffy every time they had sex due to her mental state is patently absurd. Buffy knew what she was doing when she initiated the sexual phase of their relationship. To think that Spike was raping Buffy when in Gone she barged into his crypt, slammed him against a wall, and tore off his shirt is to be so deeply in denial. Besides, I can't think of a single rape victim who would willing nuzzle her rapist's ear. I love GalaxyQuest too! Great movie.
Good commentary on Spike/Buffy. If I ruled the Jossverse, AtVs would end with Angel shanshuing and baked Buffy walking into the sunset with Spike.
In S6, the Spuffy relationship ws erotic and powerful, but messed up. I just watched SMASHED (I think that's the title), the episode where Buffy and Spike finally have sex and bring the house down. Spike was definitely straddling the line between Good and Evil there. I think his apparent return to the Dark Side in that episode is mostly in reaction to Buffy's abominable treatment of him at the beginning. He tells her "A man can change" and she says he's not a man, he's an evil disgusting thing. I noticed, and I believe that others have mentioned it, that Spike had to give himself a pep talk about how evil he was before he tried to bite the girl. An evil vampire who was relishing the kill he was about to make with the fervor of an alcoholic going off the wagon wouldn't have told himself that yes, he could remember how to kill, it's not something one forgets, he'd have gone ahead and chowed down on the helpless girl without chatter.
Later, as Spike and Buffy are fighting, Buffy taunts Spike again about being 'poor Spikey, can't fit in, not a human, not a vampire'. Spike has had the same doubts himself. I think his physical attack on Buffy here was not an attempt to seriously harm her, more a letting off of steam. He mentions that he loves her during the fight. I think that once Spike realized that the chip didn't work on Buffy, he truly believed she was no longer human, and that he could draw her into his world of violence and sex and darkness because that was where she obviously belonged.
There was certainly no rape here. Buffy was very obviously attracted to Spike before the fight began. She did not bring out her stake even once during the fight. And she initiated the sex by grabbing Spike, shoving him against the wall, and kissing him hard. Nor did she change her mind in any way.
While Spike is not totally evil in this episode, he's far from good either. I do think he's trying to reaffirm himself as a creature of the night, an evil vampire; because Buffy has not responded to him romantically as a good-guy suitor, and because Buffy categorizes him as an evil thing.
Buffy's S6 problem was that she was strongly attracted to Spike but very conflicted about that attraction, in that she couldn't decide what Spike was and what she was. If she truly believed that Spike was a disgusting evil thing rather than a man, then she should not have embraced him as a lover. It is only at the end of Season 6 that Buffy is ready to embrace the light again.
Most of the Spike/Buffy relationship in S7 is <sublime>. Buffy's true understanding of Spike begins at the end of BENEATH YOU, when she witnesses Spike's agonized repentance and realizes that his horror over the AR motivated him to get his soul back. She refuses to kill him, even though there is good reason to do so and Spike herself expects her to do it, when she figures out that Spike has been influenced by a malevolent entity, in SLEEPER. And Buffy's declaration of faith in Spike in NEVER LEAVE ME inspires Spike and renews his strength, enabling him to resist torture and temptation by the First. Spike later returns the favor by renewing Buffy's own faith in herself and bringing her out of despair in TOUCHED. They learn to trust each other, then save each other's spirits. Really beautiful, especially since Buffy wasn't a romantically naive kid at that point like she had been with Angel... [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 16:53:25 GMT -5
I've got the book wrapped and addressed, just haven't been out to the post office all week. Why am I posting this rather than IM'ing, you ask? Because as of this post I "pass" you into 19th most prolific poster. It's nice to have goals in life. Sorry for all the random, off-topic-ness guys. I promise to think of something serious and Spike related...sometime soon. Random thought: since November is sweeps we should have at least 5 (?) more episodes before re-run hell kicks in around the holidays. Anybody have a projected airing schedule? There might be one posted at BuffyWorld - in the season 5 episodes link
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Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 16:58:53 GMT -5
Spring, we've had this discussion before, and I understand what you're saying. The way I'm looking at it now, tho' (based on a quote from D. Fury), is if/when Buffy puts in an appearance, there will be no resolution to the Angel/Buffy/Spike triangle. Considering there are two vocal and passionate factions involved, it kinda makes sense. That way, both sides can keep their fantasy alive. On a related note, I don't remember who first suggested it, but I'm not totally adverse to a Spike/Anne pairing. I doubt it will happen, since we haven't seen Anne in quite a while, but if they took it slow and easy it could be quite a nice 'ship. Meant to comment last night on Spike's use of "Liam" and forgot. I think it signifies that Spike now considers himself Angel's equal. They are after all, the only two members of an ultra-exclusive club. Angelus used to refer to him as William. Darla and/or Dru (most likely Darla) might have used "Liam" back in the day. What's more, Spike belongs to another oh-so-exclusive club (along w/Buffy): the ultimate sacrifice club. Pretty rarified company, no? Random thought: Angel went to Hell, Buffy to Heaven. Now we have Spike (Mr. Morally Ambiguous) in Limbo. Thought Heaven might be a bit beyond Spike's reach, but figured if any vamp could make it, it'd be him. ;D Played matchmaker for Buffy - care to guess the result? Go on, take a wild stab... RE: the Spike/Anne possible ship? LA LA LA! C'est Moi!! Eres mi! I'm the one! LALALALALA Yes, I did suggest it; No, there's no chance in hell (or limbo) that it will occur! But I would push for that ship! And, last night, in my trawlings on the web, I looked for a Spike/Anne story and found one over at AllAboutSpike!! Yay!! Found another person thinking about a Spike/Anne ship. And, okay, I'll bite: who'd you get in the buffy match?
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