|
Post by Kerrie on Oct 25, 2003 17:00:00 GMT -5
In the last part Spring and Gail (I think?) said that Spike was under pressure when he was so mean to Harmony in episode 2. Lori said the same about Angel when Spike materialised in his office. So I started thinking (and I am reasonably sure that the following post will be comprehensible and interesting to no-one but me) that maybe cognitive load (also called attention span) affects the ability of the soul to monitor and control behaviour. Thus people cannot think about everything at once - the cognitive load is too high. When they are in a new situation and trying to process the situation and the situation is stressful there is no attention left to adequately monitor their behaviour. Consequently a certain soullessness appears (i.e. they lash out).
Using this theory lashing out when under stress happens to all people.
The trigger point varies from person to person, situation to situation.
The lashing out resembles soulless behaviour.
Some monitoring is automatic. Hence, most people will not lash-out randomly, but choose their targets. (Fred, Wesley and Gunn were not targets). Their method of lashing out (fighting, rudeness) is also automatic. In cognitive thoery - cognitive load is significantly reduced by how automatic a behaviour is.
Jane Austen suggests in "Mansfield Park" that good manners is not simply the curbing of your natural impulses for the sake of appearances but the elimination of those impulses. Behaviousr under pressure or when one loses a soul shows why that needs to be the case.
Just a random couple of thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 17:03:05 GMT -5
I love GalaxyQuest too! Great movie.
Good commentary on Spike/Buffy. If I ruled the Jossverse, AtVs would end with Angel shanshuing and baked Buffy walking into the sunset with Spike.
In S6, the Spuffy relationship ws erotic and powerful, but messed up. I just watched SMASHED (I think that's the title), the episode where Buffy and Spike finally have sex and bring the house down. Spike was definitely straddling the line between Good and Evil there. I think his apparent return to the Dark Side in that episode is mostly in reaction to Buffy's abominable treatment of him at the beginning. He tells her "A man can change" and she says he's not a man, he's an evil disgusting thing. I noticed, and I believe that others have mentioned it, that Spike had to give himself a pep talk about how evil he was before he tried to bite the girl. An evil vampire who was relishing the kill he was about to make with the fervor of an alcoholic going off the wagon wouldn't have told himself that yes, he could remember how to kill, it's not something one forgets, he'd have gone ahead and chowed down on the helpless girl without chatter.
Later, as Spike and Buffy are fighting, Buffy taunts Spike again about being 'poor Spikey, can't fit in, not a human, not a vampire'. Spike has had the same doubts himself. I think his physical attack on Buffy here was not an attempt to seriously harm her, more a letting off of steam. He mentions that he loves her during the fight. I think that once Spike realized that the chip didn't work on Buffy, he truly believed she was no longer human, and that he could draw her into his world of violence and sex and darkness because that was where she obviously belonged.
There was certainly no rape here. Buffy was very obviously attracted to Spike before the fight began. She did not bring out her stake even once during the fight. And she initiated the sex by grabbing Spike, shoving him against the wall, and kissing him hard. Nor did she change her mind in any way.
While Spike is not totally evil in this episode, he's far from good either. I do think he's trying to reaffirm himself as a creature of the night, an evil vampire; because Buffy has not responded to him romantically as a good-guy suitor, and because Buffy categorizes him as an evil thing.
Buffy's S6 problem was that she was strongly attracted to Spike but very conflicted about that attraction, in that she couldn't decide what Spike was and what she was. If she truly believed that Spike was a disgusting evil thing rather than a man, then she should not have embraced him as a lover. It is only at the end of Season 6 that Buffy is ready to embrace the light again.
Most of the Spike/Buffy relationship in S7 is <sublime>. Buffy's true understanding of Spike begins at the end of BENEATH YOU, when she witnesses Spike's agonized repentance and realizes that his horror over the AR motivated him to get his soul back. She refuses to kill him, even though there is good reason to do so and Spike herself expects her to do it, when she figures out that Spike has been influenced by a malevolent entity, in SLEEPER. And Buffy's declaration of faith in Spike in NEVER LEAVE ME inspires Spike and renews his strength, enabling him to resist torture and temptation by the First. Spike later returns the favor by renewing Buffy's own faith in herself and bringing her out of despair in TOUCHED. They learn to trust each other, then save each other's spirits. Really beautiful, especially since Buffy wasn't a romantically naive kid at that point like she had been with Angel... [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Peas in a pod, again, Scooter. It's been happening so much, I'm getting comfortable with it!
|
|
|
Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 17:06:59 GMT -5
In the last part Spring and Gail (I think?) said that Spike was under pressure when he was so mean to Harmony in episode 2. Lori said the same about Angel when Spike materialised in his office. So I started thinking (and I am reasonably sure that the following post will be comprehensible and interesting to no-one but me) that maybe cognitive load (also called attention span) affects the ability of the soul to monitor and control behaviour. Thus people cannot think about everything at once - the cognitive load is too high. When they are in a new situation and trying to process the situation and the situation is stressful there is no attention left to adequately monitor their behaviour. Consequently a certain soullessness appears (i.e. they lash out). Using this theory lashing out when under stress happens to all people. The trigger point varies from person to person, situation to situation. The lashing out resembles soulless behaviour. Some monitoring is automatic. Hence, most people will not lash-out randomly, but choose their targets. (Fred, Wesley and Gunn were not targets). Their method of lashing out (fighting, rudeness) is also automatic. In cognitive thoery - cognitive load is significantly reduced by how automatic a behaviour is. Jane Austen suggests in "Mansfield Park" that good manners is not simply the curbing of your natural impulses for the sake of appearances but the elimination of those impulses. Behaviousr under pressure or when one loses a soul shows why that needs to be the case. Just a random couple of thoughts. I said just the other day: your comments are missed and so very valuable. You are a treasure, m'girl; just a treasure! Hope all's well in Ozland, and that the weather is just beautiful.
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 17:08:40 GMT -5
I suspect his screen time will start to increase after the previously projected date of JM's leaving for Venetian Heat. I think the producers wanted to get the Spike story on line and up front first - not just to reassure the pro-spikes but also the anti-spikes, but also to ensure they had enough of JM on tape before he was supposed to go to Italy to make the movie. The movie being on hold will not, I suspect, affect the shooting schedule. It'll probably just give JM a little breathing time. I think the episodes that we will start to see about the beginning-middle of November will be more heavily Wes. (They'd have to; he's just about disappeared so far.) I also suspect the producers/writers are still trying to see how Spike will NOT fit in and where he will eventually be placed to provide team angel with more support. What Fred said last week is true - once Spike is corporeal, (and has worked out some of the major issues with Angel), he will be one hell of an invincible ally for Angel. I hope Spikey doesn't lose that whole mind control thing he's just learning. That could prove beacoup powerful in a major battle. What do you think of the idea of Spikey being given control of AI while Angel is running W&H? Wow - that would get Spike out of Angel's hair, and would beef up that huge inferiority complex of his, yeah? It would also allow Spike to use W&H's resources, and still provide an opportunity for Spike to interact with team angel. oh boy, if I were a writer, what fanfic I would write! lions, and tigers, and spike, and angel, oh my! Good idea about Spike being given control of AI; but he's not yet ready for it. After he's had a bit more experience working with humans and demons as a fighter for good, then he will be ready. But Spike has only recently become the being he is now, souled, his own man, etc. I'm not sure he's up to being in charge of an agency. Can you imagine Spike dealing with paperwork or keeping track of things? Not to mention just having the patience to do the small, boring stuff that comes with any detective job.
But I could see Spike as a vampire detective. He wouldn't want to work alone, though. He likes being part of a couple, a team, a family...Maybe Buffy or Dawn? Wishful thinking I guess. Fred? That would be cool, with someone to answer the phones (something for Cordy to do when she awakens). [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Oct 25, 2003 17:10:40 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Oct 25, 2003 17:13:10 GMT -5
I said just the other day: your comments are missed and so very valuable. You are a treasure, m'girl; just a treasure! Hope all's well in Ozland, and that the weather is just beautiful. Thanks makd. The weather is lousy, luckily. Last week the weather was gorgeous and so instead of studying I went out with Ian and the kids. Next week my parents AND the in-laws are coming so I will be too busy to study. (Both lots are coming at the same time because it is a public holiday on Tuesday, Melbourne cup-day, and they want to make a long week-end of it. Slackers!)
|
|
|
Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 17:23:43 GMT -5
Good idea about Spike being given control of AI; but he's not yet ready for it. After he's had a bit more experience working with humans and demons as a fighter for good, then he will be ready. But Spike has only recently become the being he is now, souled, his own man, etc. I'm not sure he's up to being in charge of an agency. Can you imagine Spike dealing with paperwork or keeping track of things? Not to mention just having the patience to do the small, boring stuff that comes with any detective job.
But I could see Spike as a vampire detective. He wouldn't want to work alone, though. He likes being part of a couple, a team, a family...Maybe Buffy or Dawn? Wishful thinking I guess. Fred? That would be cool, with someone to answer the phones (something for Cordy to do when she awakens). [glow=red,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Oh, yes, ITA: he's so NOT Ready! But, I can see him, by the end of season 5, ready to do that - as long as he has, as you so correctly noted, someone to do the everyday paperwork. Maybe import Andrew? That'd be neat! The dialogue between them would be just wonderful! From the mundane to the ridiculous. Everything from Star Trek to the blooming onion, to Fred's voice sounding effeminate, to Andrew's mixed-up concepts of science and history. I mean, if he thought a vulcanologist was a specialist in Star Trek, imagine what he'd think of a mixologist - or an ecydiasiast! oh, man, I am already psyched. Actually, it'd be a good spin-off: Spike, with Andrew as his office manager, Anne as the love interest, maybe even throw in Vi or Rona as a slayer/assistant. What a group! The chemistry would start out so wonky, but would have to improve! Did you ever watch Bakersfield PD? Just hilarous! and with ummm what's his name? GianCarlo Esposito? So good. There was a show that deserved cable so it could stay around.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 17:25:20 GMT -5
Thanks makd. The weather is lousy, luckily. Last week the weather was gorgeous and so instead of studying I went out with Ian and the kids. Next week my parents AND the in-laws are coming so I will be too busy to study. (Both lots are coming at the same time because it is a public holiday on Tuesday, Melbourne cup-day, and they want to make a long week-end of it. Slackers!) condolences on the extra work next week with the 'rents and the in-laws coming. And, I'll bite: what's "cup-day"? Say that in this courntry and people may think you've got a thing for Victoria's Secret!
|
|
|
Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 17:27:33 GMT -5
And this little S'cubie is off to Nan's journal for a good read (thank you, Nan; you take such good care of our addictions... I mean obsessions), then a quick din-din. adiosita I mean our obsessions.)
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Oct 25, 2003 17:31:29 GMT -5
condolences on the extra work next week with the 'rents and the in-laws coming. And, I'll bite: what's "cup-day"? Say that in this courntry and people may think you've got a thing for Victoria's Secret! The Melbourne Cup is a horse racing trophy for a special race held on the first Tuesday in November called "Cup day". It is "the race that stops a nation" because of the huge prize pool and honour. Only Victorians (like my parents and in-laws) get the day off. Everywhere else (unofficially) takes the afternoon off to watch the race and party. It is a big day.
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 17:36:52 GMT -5
For some strange reason, I like BLOOD IS THE LIFE better than OLD BLOOD. It's like each time you write a fanfic it gets a bit sharper, though the writing on all three is first-rate.
I LOVE your new avatar!
GAIL
|
|
|
Post by makd on Oct 25, 2003 17:37:38 GMT -5
Real quickly, Nan
did you ever get my posting on the motorcycle brand? It's a Yamaha.
(got this from reading Rob's fanfic.)
I just finished the chapter. Another great job.
now for the din-din!
|
|
|
Post by RAKSHA on Oct 25, 2003 17:39:30 GMT -5
Oh, yes, ITA: he's so NOT Ready! But, I can see him, by the end of season 5, ready to do that - as long as he has, as you so correctly noted, someone to do the everyday paperwork. Maybe import Andrew? That'd be neat! The dialogue between them would be just wonderful! From the mundane to the ridiculous. Everything from Star Trek to the blooming onion, to Fred's voice sounding effeminate, to Andrew's mixed-up concepts of science and history. I mean, if he thought a vulcanologist was a specialist in Star Trek, imagine what he'd think of a mixologist - or an ecydiasiast! oh, man, I am already psyched. Actually, it'd be a good spin-off: Spike, with Andrew as his office manager, Anne as the love interest, maybe even throw in Vi or Rona as a slayer/assistant. What a group! The chemistry would start out so wonky, but would have to improve! Did you ever watch Bakersfield PD? Just hilarous! and with ummm what's his name? GianCarlo Esposito? So good. There was a show that deserved cable so it could stay around. No, I want Fred for Spike, unless Buffy bakes quickly or Wesley makes an overdue move. I just don't see Anne and Spike. Vi or Rona would be cool additions; an extra fighter is always good.
No, I never saw that show.
GAIL
|
|
|
Post by Kerrie on Oct 25, 2003 17:45:46 GMT -5
Vlad said: "Let's look at this another way. Waht are grave robbers? Tehy are folks, demon, human or "other" that steal bodies for profit. Not a necessary thing at all in the world.
The demons that ate the babies...let's jsut suppose for a minute that they eat these babies less for "fun" and more for nutritional content. They have a need for babies, of soem nature, much as a vampire has need of blood.. Now, since we know that vampiires CAN exist on the blood of animals and not people, wouldnt it be worth the effort to try and convert these demons with a softer line... to me this is sort of like picking your battles...and your strategies. Makes a lot of sense to me.
To reiterate... body snatchers... useless profession for sheer gain. Baby eatin' demon... not totally their fault.
Vlad"
I don't know, Vlad. If the baby-eating demons can't help it (and I assumed they couldn't) then there is no hope for them. Eating babies to my mind is worse than eating grown-ups like vampires do. Grave-robbing for profit obviously needs to be stopped, but I would hardly call it "urgect" unlike stealing and eating babies.
I would have thought Anegel's priorities for evil would be (in descending order): - world destroyers/take-overs - baby killer/harmers - children killers/harmers - other defenceless groups who are picked on by evil (e.g. the sick, the poor) - the rest of humanity based on how much suffering is involved, - animals - the dead.
I know that the dead should be protected because of the evil that the demons do whilst using their bodies, but that type of evil just does not seem so evil to me - it is small-scale and disorganised. If it was organised to take over the world then sure it would need to be addressed as priority one, but not otherwise.
|
|
|
Post by DaveCrenshaw on Oct 25, 2003 17:49:34 GMT -5
I originally posted this last night, but I thought I'd repost it, since that part was closed not much later. If you've already read this, feel free to skip on over. Playing catch up as usual.... As I see B/S in S6 as a case of domestic battery, I view Spike's attack as akin to the victim of abuse who lashes out at his/her attacker. It isn't right, but it's understandable. It worries me sometimes that I still believe in B/S, given the dysfunction in S6. On the other hand, B/S in the last half of S7 was sublime. They forgave each other and relied on one another in a healthy way. It bothered me when Giles said "You rely on him, he relies on you." like it was a bad thing. I thought, isn't that what people do? JW had referenced 'The X-Files' before, and B/S reminded me very much of M/S. Their relationship wasn't always smooth sailing either (Scully once shot Mulder, Mulder sometimes took Scully very much for granted), but it was very deep and real. B/S even had a quintessential M/S moment back-to-back down in the old Initiative HQ(complete w/ flashlights!) in The Killer In Me. Who's seen Galaxy Quest? I laughed so hard the first time I saw it I had tears running down my face. It's a funny but loving tribute to fandom. I have been to both Star Trek (not recently, and not in costume) and BtVS cons, 'cuz I'm just that cool! They got it just right. Have to disagree w/Kerrie on Spike being an opportunistic bully. Throwing a few punches at Angel seems reasonable to me, since Angel's spent the entire ep. whining about Spike's presence. D*mn that Spike, he selfishly dies to save the world, then doesn't have the decency to stay properly dead and quit bothering people! I'm glad Fred is still scanning Spike. Not sure what the whole falling temp signifies, but I'm glad they brought it up again, just the same. Could the heat have something to do w/Spike's fiery demise? As for the Spike-haters, I read that rebuttal to The Greater Capacity for Good hoping to find a logical debate. Instead, it was strictly a diatribe. The author (male?) referred to Spike as a walking dildo, and then ended w/some truly appalling (il)logic. He said that all one needed for redemption was a soul and a woman's love. If that were true, Angel would've been redeemed years ago. And the argument that Spike was raping Buffy every time they had sex due to her mental state is patently absurd. Buffy knew what she was doing when she initiated the sexual phase of their relationship. To think that Spike was raping Buffy when in Gone she barged into his crypt, slammed him against a wall, and tore off his shirt is to be so deeply in denial. Besides, I can't think of a single rape victim who would willing nuzzle her rapist's ear. Galaxy Quest was such a great sendup of the Star Trek franchise, and of conventions in general. And I have been to Trek conventions, and next weekend will be my first BtVScon. A bit of trivia that, thanks to all his makeup and vocal treatments, I didn't know until I looked it up -- the bad guy in Galaxy Quest was played by Robin Sachs, who BtVS fans know better as Ripper's old bud, Ethan Rayne.
|
|