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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 11:57:52 GMT -5
...If you've ever owned an outdoor-living cat, you'd know what I mean... Indoor cats do it too, sometimes. It's not "playing with their food" at all. Mother cats bring home live prey for their young to learn to hunt. It's a survival instinct, not an indication that you've got a "soulless evil (kitty) thing" in your house LOL! Shanno
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Post by Rachael on Nov 8, 2003 12:03:23 GMT -5
Indoor cats do it too, sometimes. It's not "playing with their food" at all. Mother cats bring home live prey for their young to learn to hunt. It's a survival instinct, not an indication that you've got a "soulless evil (kitty) thing" in your house LOL! Shanno Well, I never thought he was evil. But my point is that they're not doing it for food - maybe for practice, but they don't see it that way. I'm fairly certain that they're having fun. Now, they've probably evolved to enjoy killing so that they'll get more practice, but the adorable orange monster doesn't know that. For him, he's just going out to kill something. And boy, does he get upset if you take it away from him before it's dead. I mean, if they were only practicing hunting, why not just kill the thing right out? Rather than play it to death?
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Post by karalee on Nov 8, 2003 12:05:17 GMT -5
Yeah, hey - I didn't find out he was 40 until last winter. I'm still flabbergasted. Holding up nicely, isn't he? Same here. This was also about the time I found out he was was from California and not England. I posted on a part or two ago, that my sister-in-law (who is English) was fooled too. I was a little surprised that she couldn't tell.
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Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 12:06:45 GMT -5
I don't know your religious background, but I have to go with what Jesus said at Matthew 5: 28 "I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The consequence of not rejecting bad desires in shown at James 1:14 & 15, " Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." So I agree that we should feel guilty about bad thoughts, because if we keep dwelling on them, most people will eventually act on those thoughts. Or we'll do things that bother our conscience, but we ignore it and it becomes calloused so that each new bad thing we do doesn't bother us like it once would have. I think that we need to be aware that our bad thoughts could lead to bad actions, but I don't want to feel guilty, or do I think we should feel guilty for having them. I think part of accepting being human is also accepting that there is a darker part of our nature. If we are made to feel too guilty for just our thoughts how can we ever forgive ourselves for any of our bad actions? I think it could lead to a loss of hope and our humanity. That's not saying that we shouldn't be responsible for any wrong we might do. We should. But to burden ourselves with guilt and not move on, I think that would be a fate worse than death.
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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 12:13:30 GMT -5
Well, I never thought he was evil. But my point is that they're not doing it for food - maybe for practice, but they don't see it that way. I'm fairly certain that they're having fun. Now, they've probably evolved to enjoy killing so that they'll get more practice, but the adorable orange monster doesn't know that. For him, he's just going out to kill something. And boy, does he get upset if you take it away from him before it's dead. I mean, if they were only practicing hunting, why not just kill the thing right out? Rather than play it to death? If things were that easy to kill outright, they wouldn't need to practice. Sometimes, prey actually fight back, the pesky blighters. As for it being fun, of course it is. All the stuff we animals do that's especially keyed to survival (like sex and food) is usually fun (or should be ) instead of painful and/or boring or just too difficult; otherwise, we wouldn't do it and the species would die out! Shanno
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Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 12:13:33 GMT -5
Indoor cats do it too, sometimes. It's not "playing with their food" at all. Mother cats bring home live prey for their young to learn to hunt. It's a survival instinct, not an indication that you've got a "soulless evil (kitty) thing" in your house LOL! Shanno Siberian Huskies do the same thing as cats. I think they are cats in dog fur, or something. I think they like the element of surprise that a thing fluttering around gives them. The surprise of the hunt, the satisfaction of the catch. He loves crickets - they're so bouncy! Actually he'll chase leaves blowing around if it's dark enough. LOL! If we gave her half a chance she would probably kill the cat (if she could catch it), not because she's hungry, but because she's 'playing'. She can't understand why it's so wrong to pounce and paw at the little kitty - 'What's the matter mom? I'm just playing - really!'
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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 12:16:37 GMT -5
I think that we need to be aware that our bad thoughts could lead to bad actions, but I don't want to feel guilty, or do I think we should feel guilty for having them. I think part of accepting being human is also accepting that there is a darker part of our nature. If we are made to feel too guilty for just our thoughts how can we ever forgive ourselves for any of our bad actions? I think it could lead to a loss of hope and our humanity. That's not saying that we shouldn't be responsible for any wrong we might do. We should. But to burden ourselves with guilt and not move on, I think that would be a fate worse than death. I agree completely.
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Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 12:19:20 GMT -5
There's a total lunar eclipse tonight! And it's looking really clear here in the Midwest - hope the weather holds. It's supposed to be spectacular - a blood moon - because of the forest fires and recent volcanic activity. So all you who get into this sort of thing - look skyward in the early evening for a great show. I know I'm going to. www.space.com/spacewatch/lunar_eclipse_2_031031.html#stages
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Post by karalee on Nov 8, 2003 12:23:07 GMT -5
There's a total lunar eclipse tonight! And it's looking really clear here in the Midwest - hope the weather holds. It's supposed to be spectacular - a blood moon - because of the forest fires and recent volcanic activity. So all you who get into this sort of thing - look skyward in the early evening for a great show. I know I'm going to. www.space.com/spacewatch/lunar_eclipse_2_031031.html#stagesBummer, it's cloudy here in Missouri. Maybe it will clear off before tonight.
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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 12:24:16 GMT -5
There's a total lunar eclipse tonight! And it's looking really clear here in the Midwest - hope the weather holds. It's supposed to be spectacular - a blood moon - because of the forest fires and recent volcanic activity. So all you who get into this sort of thing - look skyward in the early evening for a great show. I know I'm going to. www.space.com/spacewatch/lunar_eclipse_2_031031.html#stagesThat's so neat. I used to stay up late as a kid to watch them, snuggled up with my dad against the cold. I hope it's clear here tonight (the weather forecast is cloudy with a chance of meatballs rain. I think I'll call my dad and see if it's clear where he lives... Shanno
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Post by Betsy on Nov 8, 2003 12:29:49 GMT -5
I pasted this from the last part because it seems to be an ongoing debate. I know a lot of you won't agree with me, but I've decided that Spike & Angel do deserve to feel guilty for the deaths they caused before getting their souls. I base this decision primarily on who their first victims were--not counting the guy in the graveyard when Angelus was raised. Angelus' first true victims were the people who made him unhappy as a human, his family--particularly his father--and the people in the village where he lived. Spike's first siring was his own mother. The choosing of these victims was very deliberate. Angelus acted on the anger and hatred he felt towards those persons, Spike by the love he felt and the desire to save his mother from a slow, lingering death from TB. You can be sure they continued to kill anyone who annoyed them or got in their way, whether they were hungry or not. Remember Spike in School Hard--"I'm a veal man, myself and you're too old to eat, but not to kill". No one can reasonably argue that Spike killed that man because he needed his blood to survive. The analogy of vampires as wolves or other predators doesn't really fit either. Animals don't kill for fun, vampires do. They were both motivated by feelings they had BEFORE they were turned. They can't say later that the demon TOTALLY controlled their actions. They did things they wanted to do BEFORE they were demons--Angel wanted to kill his father and the people in the village who looked down on him and Spike wanted to save his mother. That's why I feel they deserve to feel guilt for their actions AS demons. Some very good thoughts here Nicki and I agree with them. I also thing it has a lot to do with power and control and what they can do now with that power and control. Not all of their killings are for food. Look at what the Master and Luke did in The Harvest and that was to get the Master free from the underground caves. In the beginning when Spike first came, it wasnot about nourishment or dinner, it was for the accolades of killing his 3rd slayer and increasing the "myth" that surrounds William the Bloody, to take control of Sunndale and the entire population. On Angel, look at W&H, sure they were humans, but it was about power and their control over everything, but first and foremost their control of Angel -- which would have been a big coup over the PTB to have control over their "champion", the vampire with a soul. Now Angel has to harness the power of W&H and use it for good (not evil). He doesn't want to control the population of LA, he wasnt to use that population to help them remain safe to live their lives. Wow, I seem to have gotten off the orignal subject . . . we were talking about food sources and their killing and my mind just totally wandered onto a whole different subject. I have no control of my brain whatsoever and I don't think I ever have. ;D
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Post by Rachael on Nov 8, 2003 12:31:09 GMT -5
If things were that easy to kill outright, they wouldn't need to practice. Sometimes, prey actually fight back, the pesky blighters. As for it being fun, of course it is. All the stuff we animals do that's especially keyed to survival (like sex and food) is usually fun (or should be ) instead of painful and/or boring or just too difficult; otherwise, we wouldn't do it and the species would die out! Shanno True - it's interesting that his little cat brain can't make the distinction now - the mouse doesn't really put up much of a fight. But then, that's the fun aspect again. Nonetheless - killing for fun when he's not the least bit hungry. Sure, evolution's made him think it's fun, so it's not his fault. Apparently, some humans find it fun, too - hunting is alive and well. But we draw the line when it gets to our own species - our conscience says it's wrong. (Or is that our society that says so? Hard to tell sometimes.) Actually, I draw the line well before my own species - killing of things that obviously have feelings, even very limited ones, really bothers me. I trap mice in the house and take them to a field and let them go. (So a cat can eat them.) Hmm. . .there's an interesting point, though - if vampires don't consider humans the same species as them, then is killing us wrong even if they have a conscience? I think yes, it's an issue of sentience - just like killing folks from another planet would be wrong. Regardless, that's how I think about them - they're very intelligent, so it seems like they ought to know what they're doing is wrong, but even if they do (*know* it, intellectually), they don't *feel* that it's wrong, so I don't hold them morally responsible. And I just can't hold the soul, which wasn't even *there* when the murders happened, responsible. It's not fair - the soul couldn't have prevented it, so why *should* it feel guilty (regardless of the fact that it undoubtedly will)?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 8, 2003 12:33:41 GMT -5
That's so neat. I used to stay up late as a kid to watch them, snuggled up with my dad against the cold. I hope it's clear here tonight (the weather forecast is cloudy with a chance of meatballs rain. I think I'll call my dad and see if it's clear where he lives... Shanno Ditto the clouds here in the Bay Area. I could make a brief foray into the Central Valley, I suppose - it's often sunny there, and it's only an hour away. BTW, Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs is a great book! I have to remember to get that for my neice (if I can't find the one I had when I was little.)
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Post by Betsy on Nov 8, 2003 12:34:34 GMT -5
There's a total lunar eclipse tonight! And it's looking really clear here in the Midwest - hope the weather holds. It's supposed to be spectacular - a blood moon - because of the forest fires and recent volcanic activity. So all you who get into this sort of thing - look skyward in the early evening for a great show. I know I'm going to. www.space.com/spacewatch/lunar_eclipse_2_031031.html#stagesI was excited when I heard about this, but it's due to start around 5 pm eastern time and that's 2 pm west coast time, so I doube many of us on the left coast will be seeing it. It's due to end about 8:30 pm eastern time and it's just getting dark here in Washington at that time. Guess I'll have to watch the rerun of it on the late news tonite.
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Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 12:37:13 GMT -5
True - it's interesting that his little cat brain can't make the distinction now - the mouse doesn't really put up much of a fight. But then, that's the fun aspect again. Nonetheless - killing for fun when he's not the least bit hungry. Sure, evolution's made him think it's fun, so it's not his fault. Apparently, some humans find it fun, too - hunting is alive and well. But we draw the line when it gets to our own species - our conscience says it's wrong. (Or is that our society that says so? Hard to tell sometimes.) Actually, I draw the line well before my own species - killing of things that obviously have feelings, even very limited ones, really bothers me. I trap mice in the house and take them to a field and let them go. (So a cat can eat them.) Hmm. . .there's an interesting point, though - if vampires don't consider humans the same species as them, then is killing us wrong even if they have a conscience? I think yes, it's an issue of sentience - just like killing folks from another planet would be wrong. Regardless, that's how I think about them - they're very intelligent, so it seems like they ought to know what they're doing is wrong, but even if they do (*know* it, intellectually), they don't *feel* that it's wrong, so I don't hold them morally responsible. And I just can't hold the soul, which wasn't even *there* when the murders happened, responsible. It's not fair - the soul couldn't have prevented it, so why *should* it feel guilty (regardless of the fact that it undoubtedly will)? I agree! My husband is getting ready to kill me if I don't get off the computer and help him rearrange the house for some new furniture. I don't think he'll feel the least bit guilty about doing it either. See yaz later!
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