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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 8, 2003 10:49:51 GMT -5
Hello and welcome to the Soulful Spike Society part 65. We've come a long way since we first opened our doors earlier this year. But the best is always yet to come as we welcome new posters with new ideas to our ranks. The Soulful Spike Society began on ScoopMe, when a group of Spike-lovers found that their love of Spike wasn't as welcome an obsession as other posters' love of Angel, or Willow, or whomever. So they started their own posting board, with two principles -- no spoilers (that is, anything that has yet to air on AtS, except in the designated spoiler area), and the Golden Rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Today there are nearly 150 registered posters, and our numbers continue to grow. We aren't all Spike fanatics anymore, either, but the Golden Rule (and the Spoiler Rule) remains our mantra. We welcome all posts, especially those from new S'cubies, even those that are negative toward Spike or any other character (provided they are respectful of the feelings of others, in that we even have someone who likes Kennedy on this board, and he has power, so don't go all schoolyard). Anyhow, please have fun. If you've never posted with us before, don't be afraid to say "Howdy". Lurking is also welcome, but the discussions are more fun when everyone plays. And if you want to check out who we are in more detail, go to our main site at www.soulfulspike.com/. And with that, let the posting begin!
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 8, 2003 10:52:49 GMT -5
Read an interesting article with Mercedes McNab at www.steppinoutmagazine.com/current/html/interview.html. Slayage.com listed it as having spoilers, which she does talk about things that are coming up, but after reading the article, I'm taking it all with a grain of salt. She also spends a great deal of the article talking about how everyone in the cast of BtVS spent most of their time boinking each other in their trailers between takes (except for her), and so I found the whole thing a bit preposterous. Still, there are some very hot photos of Ms. Harmony Kendall, Vampire Secretary -- read at your own will.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 10:57:32 GMT -5
I pasted this from the last part because it seems to be an ongoing debate.
I know a lot of you won't agree with me, but I've decided that Spike & Angel do deserve to feel guilty for the deaths they caused before getting their souls.
I base this decision primarily on who their first victims were--not counting the guy in the graveyard when Angelus was raised. Angelus' first true victims were the people who made him unhappy as a human, his family--particularly his father--and the people in the village where he lived. Spike's first siring was his own mother. The choosing of these victims was very deliberate. Angelus acted on the anger and hatred he felt towards those persons, Spike by the love he felt and the desire to save his mother from a slow, lingering death from TB.
You can be sure they continued to kill anyone who annoyed them or got in their way, whether they were hungry or not. Remember Spike in School Hard--"I'm a veal man, myself and you're too old to eat, but not to kill". No one can reasonably argue that Spike killed that man because he needed his blood to survive. The analogy of vampires as wolves or other predators doesn't really fit either. Animals don't kill for fun, vampires do.
They were both motivated by feelings they had BEFORE they were turned. They can't say later that the demon TOTALLY controlled their actions. They did things they wanted to do BEFORE they were demons--Angel wanted to kill his father and the people in the village who looked down on him and Spike wanted to save his mother. That's why I feel they deserve to feel guilt for their actions AS demons.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 11:01:47 GMT -5
Pasted this one from last part too.
on Today at 09:26am, SandyShores wrote: Hi Nicki! Hope your back is feeling better today.
I think I know what you mean by you feel that Spike and Angel deserve the guilt they feel. It's kind of a judgement word - deserve.
I think that Angel certainly felt anger towards his family and that anger colored his actions when he was ensouled. Spike didn't feel anger towards his mother until after he turned her, and then later realized that wasn't his really his mother who said those awful things about him. He might have been angry at Cecily, but I think he was more heartbroken than angry.
Angel has a more violent personality than Spike. The demon in him uses that to his advantage. The soul in him contrains his violent tendencies.
I think that Angel can't help acting broody from his feelings of guilt, because of his personality - whether he deserves to feel that way probably doesn't matter - he can't help feeling that way because of who he is - and it burdens him.
Spike, on the other hand, I think, sees himself in a different light and because of that, even though he feels guilt for his actions as a demon, doesn't actually hold himself responsible for his actions without a soul. He has more self-esteem because he was raised by a loving mother.
So whether or not they deserve the remorse they feel, it's still going to be there in one form or another.
The demon in them certainly deserves the guilt that is felt, but of course, the demon doesn't feel that guilt - it has no conscience/human soul.
Do you think that people deserve to feel guilty for thinking bad thoughts? I think deserve maybe doesn't quite fit - maybe it should be "should" feel guilty - should have a conscience. In that case, yes we need to feel guilty because it would stop us for acting on our bad thoughts.
My reply:
I don't know your religious background, but I have to go with what Jesus said at Matthew 5: 28 "I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The consequence of not rejecting bad desires in shown at James 1:14 & 15, " Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." So I agree that we should feel guilty about bad thoughts, because if we keep dwelling on them, most people will eventually act on those thoughts. Or we'll do things that bother our conscience, but we ignore it and it becomes calloused so that each new bad thing we do doesn't bother us like it once would have.
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Post by Shan on Nov 8, 2003 11:03:34 GMT -5
NikiM: "...Jesus said at Matthew 5: 28 "I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The consequence of not rejecting bad desires in shown at James 1:14 & 15, " Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." So I agree that we should feel guilty about bad thoughts, because if we keep dwelling on them, most people will eventually act on those thoughts. Or we'll do things that bother our conscience, but we ignore it and it becomes calloused so that each new bad thing we do doesn't bother us like it once would have."
Niki, I see part of our disconnect now. I don't believe that thinking something "bad" is the same as doing it and I certainly don't believe that thinking something "bad" for long enough will cause even most people to actually DO that thing. Otherwise, like I said, we'd live in a world filled with the criminally insane.
Shanno
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 8, 2003 11:09:09 GMT -5
Don't forget to vote in the Photo of the Week contest if you've not yet done so. This week it's a very, very tight race with only one vote seperating several top contenders (including my own). If you don't vote and your favorite pic doesn't win, you'll have only yourself to blame.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 11:14:40 GMT -5
NikiM: "...Jesus said at Matthew 5: 28 "I say to you that everyone that keeps on looking at a woman so as to have a passion for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." The consequence of not rejecting bad desires in shown at James 1:14 & 15, " Each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin." So I agree that we should feel guilty about bad thoughts, because if we keep dwelling on them, most people will eventually act on those thoughts. Or we'll do things that bother our conscience, but we ignore it and it becomes calloused so that each new bad thing we do doesn't bother us like it once would have." Niki, I see part of our disconnect now. I don't believe that thinking something "bad" is the same as doing it and I certainly don't believe that thinking something "bad" for long enough will cause even most people to actually DO that thing. Otherwise, like I said, we'd live in a world filled with the criminally insane. Shanno I don't believe that most people will murder, rape and torture, but I do feel they will do things they would have rejected--steal, cheat on taxes or spouse--if they keep thinking about it. Plus, serial killers usually don't start with killing humans, they work up to it by killing animals or raping. Each bad act leads to more bad acts until those smaller things don't thrill like they used to, so they have to go on to something worse.
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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 8, 2003 11:19:19 GMT -5
OK - I give up.
I can't log in no matter what I try. I can log in to my email accounts (yahoo, work), and I can log in at other websites (e.g. amazon), no problem. The problem seems very specific to this site.
I've check my security and privacy settings. Nothing looks amiss. I lowered them anyhow . . . no help.
I am using the right id and password, because it DOES recognize me - says "hi Spring" but then won't let me do anything and takes me back to "you need to log in."
I am at a loss. Did I finally cross the line in somehow, in absentia, with my posts about Spike's assets? Is Mr Bloody angry with me for my ebulgent studies? Or something else? Yikes, that would be bad, he can be kinda nasty, according to Dalton.
Mr Bloody, can you . . . uhm . . . help? In a merciful way I mean, that does not involved any punching or slapping or biting or me going up in flames.
Your humble servant, Spring
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 11:21:38 GMT -5
Read an interesting article with Mercedes McNab at www.steppinoutmagazine.com/current/html/interview.html. Slayage.com listed it as having spoilers, which she does talk about things that are coming up, but after reading the article, I'm taking it all with a grain of salt. She also spends a great deal of the article talking about how everyone in the cast of BtVS spent most of their time boinking each other in their trailers between takes (except for her), and so I found the whole thing a bit preposterous. Still, there are some very hot photos of Ms. Harmony Kendall, Vampire Secretary -- read at your own will. She's only 23!!!!!!!!!! That means she was probably 19 or 20 when she & JM dated and he was 37 or 38. I guess he is or was living out his adolescent fantasy of getting the "hot chick" that wouldn't have given him the time of day when he was a teenager.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 11:24:30 GMT -5
OK - I give up. I can't log in no matter what I try. I can log in to my email accounts (yahoo, work), and I can log in at other websites (e.g. amazon), no problem. The problem seems very specific to this site. I've check my security and privacy settings. Nothing looks amiss. I lowered them anyhow . . . no help. I am using the right id and password, because it DOES recognize me - says "hi Spring" but then won't let me do anything and takes me back to "you need to log in." I am at a loss. Did I finally cross the line in somehow, in absentia, with my posts about Spike's assets? Is Mr Bloody angry with me for my ebulgent studies? Or something else? Yikes, that would be bad, he can be kinda nasty, according to Dalton. Mr Bloody, can you . . . uhm . . . help? In a merciful way I mean, that does not involved any punching or slapping or biting or me going up in flames. Your humble servant, Spring I'm sure that's not it, Spring. You would make a much too tasty snack to be shut out by Mr. Bloody. Maybe James has gotten some kind of court order? Hope someone can figure out the problem soon.
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Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 11:32:59 GMT -5
My thanks to everyone who gave my sympathy and virtual hugs yesterday. I am feeling better today, so hopefully, please, please, please, the steroid is starting to reduce the inflammation. I've been sitting up quite a while and I don't want to push it, so I think it's time for me to logout and lay down. Talk to everyone later.
{{hugs & kisses to my fellow S'cubies}}
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Post by karalee on Nov 8, 2003 11:36:07 GMT -5
She's only 23!!!!!!!!!! That means she was probably 19 or 20 when she & JM dated and he was 37 or 38. I guess he is or was living out his adolescent fantasy of getting the "hot chick" that wouldn't have given him the time of day when he was a teenager. I read an interview with her a couple of weeks ago and the interviewer was asking her about the date they had. When he mentioned JM's age, she was shocked. She thought he was in his early thirties. I don't know where I read that, it was a link from a journal I read.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 8, 2003 11:49:34 GMT -5
I pasted this from the last part because it seems to be an ongoing debate. I know a lot of you won't agree with me, but I've decided that Spike & Angel do deserve to feel guilty for the deaths they caused before getting their souls. I base this decision primarily on who their first victims were--not counting the guy in the graveyard when Angelus was raised. Angelus' first true victims were the people who made him unhappy as a human, his family--particularly his father--and the people in the village where he lived. Spike's first siring was his own mother. The choosing of these victims was very deliberate. Angelus acted on the anger and hatred he felt towards those persons, Spike by the love he felt and the desire to save his mother from a slow, lingering death from TB. You can be sure they continued to kill anyone who annoyed them or got in their way, whether they were hungry or not. Remember Spike in School Hard--"I'm a veal man, myself and you're too old to eat, but not to kill". No one can reasonably argue that Spike killed that man because he needed his blood to survive. The analogy of vampires as wolves or other predators doesn't really fit either. Animals don't kill for fun, vampires do. They were both motivated by feelings they had BEFORE they were turned. They can't say later that the demon TOTALLY controlled their actions. They did things they wanted to do BEFORE they were demons--Angel wanted to kill his father and the people in the village who looked down on him and Spike wanted to save his mother. That's why I feel they deserve to feel guilt for their actions AS demons. Hmm. . .morning, all. While I'll agree that the predator analogy leaves something to be desired, I do have to point out that it's untrue that animals don't kill for fun. If you've ever owned an outdoor-living cat, you'd know what I mean. My parents have one particularly adorable monster, who, after eating a wonderful breakfast (my father serves the cats WARM breakfasts, can you believe it?), heads out of the yard to the neighboring field. There, he catches a mouse, brings it back up to the patio, and plays with it to death. He, for example, bites off its tail (doesn't eat the tail, though), then lets it run again. Mice really do squeak when terrified, by the way. Then he grabs it back up and maybe tosses it in the air. The catches it trying to escape again, and bats it around a bit before biting off some other non-essential part. Etc. This goes on for maybe 15 minutes before the poor thing finally dies, and then occasionally he eats it. Usually not, though - 'cause he's not hungry. He just leaves the corpse and goes out for another mouse. Or maybe a bird, if he gets lucky. No concept that the mouse is alive and has feelings (it obviously does, if you're a human - fear being the most noticable), or that it's wrong to kill it. It's *fun*, apparently. So, I've always kind of thought of vampires as unusually intelligent cats - even down to their social behaviors. Cats live in small groups of mothers and their progeny, and dislike cats from other families. Individual cats ('specially males) break off from these groups and go their own ways regularly, and when a female has kittens, she generally starts her own little nest group. And you'll have already guessed this, but I still think that Angel and Spike don't deserve to feel guilty, but nonetheless they do, 'cause they're sort of human now. (Angel should maybe feel guilty for the things he did before he died - he wasn't a very nice person. But the selection of his family as his first victims reflected the loss of whatever conscience he had, and wasn't so much his fault. Although now it probably adds quite a lot to the guilt, since some part of Liam had to be involved in that decision. And Spike's siring of his mom - I regard that as a pitiable and entirely innocent act. He was trying to save her. He loved her. His new no-soul self couldn't think ahead to know what he was doing was wrong (or care).) And lastly (whew!) - I don't think thinking about doing something will make someone more likely to do it. Someone who'll cheat on their spouse, in my mind, was already morally predisposed to think it wasn't that big a moral violation, and perhaps that's why they thought about it more. The edges of our moral values are much different from person to person, so what's a violation of those morals will be different, as well.
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Post by Spring Summers on Nov 8, 2003 11:50:20 GMT -5
I'm sure that's not it, Spring. You would make a much too tasty snack to be shut out by Mr. Bloody. Maybe James has gotten some kind of court order? Hope someone can figure out the problem soon. Nicki - am way behind on the postings, so I'm not sure how you got hurt, or what is inflamed, but I hope you get better and better. As far as your theories . . . uhm . . . Mr Bloody might consider me a tasty snack? Yikes again! And court order? I don't pay any attention to those silly things. I asked my son if he messed with the security or privacy settings and he says he "didn't do ANYTHING." It was not, not, not, not him, why do I always think everything is him? Sometimes I have to keep myself from smiling at kids and their reactions to things. My older son called this morning, just to tell me he was feeling better (was having some nasty side-effects from his meds). I was surprised that he realized I would most definitely want to know about any little ups and downs, and further, that, he would actually tell me about them. OK. I have got to get off the 'net and on to a slew of things that await me due to my 3 day out-of-town stay.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 8, 2003 11:51:28 GMT -5
I read an interview with her a couple of weeks ago and the interviewer was asking her about the date they had. When he mentioned JM's age, she was shocked. She thought he was in his early thirties. I don't know where I read that, it was a link from a journal I read. Yeah, hey - I didn't find out he was 40 until last winter. I'm still flabbergasted. Holding up nicely, isn't he?
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