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Post by Rachael on Nov 23, 2003 19:29:18 GMT -5
Karen and Rachael- In the Greek story about Demeter ( goddess of the Hearth and Harvest) and Persephone- didn't Demeter cover the earth with snow (after she had withdrawn her largesse b/c Hades had kidnapped her daughter( Persephone) and taken her to his underground abode of the dead) as a promise that she would ultimately return Nature's bounty? Hmm. . .I remember this a little differently - the snow every winter was a result of Demeter mourning the loss of her daughter and crying over it. If that's the case, then the fact that Buffy (and, for that matter, Angel) were just crying makes the snow even more interesting - did they do it, or were the PTBs interfering?
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Post by Rachael on Nov 23, 2003 19:33:40 GMT -5
Dave- Is that vagueness deliberate do you think or just a function of who is writing for the show at that particular time? I to, have a bit of a problem with the strong demarcation drawn between Angelus/Angel. I, as well - although I feel it's a matter of deliberate characterization. Angel doesn't want to acknowledge that Angelus is, well, him. And neither do folks like Gunn and Cordy, etc. Amends reveals that Angel does know that the evil is in him, and he needs to control it; however, he spent a large part of Season 4 telling himself (and everyone else) that they're two seperate entities. In Amends, Buffy knew, too. It's like she was dealing with a substance-abusing ex (deliberately like that). "He's slipping, Giles. I think we're losing him." And Giles never once acted like the two were seperate. "Frankly, the last time you became complacent about your purpose in life, things turned out rather badly."
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Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 19:37:35 GMT -5
ellie wrote:
I believe the unsouled demon "simply does not recognize the wrongness of what they are doing" and because of this they revel in the evilness. Whereas, a souled human doing evil recognizes the wrongness of what they are doing, yet still revels in the evilness.
ellie also wrote:
As Spike is newly souled and Buffy has, for the most part, been his moral compass, I would suggest that Spike still has a ways to go. His flippant manner in which he is reminded of the past, most recently the orphanage Roger Wyndham-Price mentioned, is not indicative of his true feelings. I think he has accepted that he didn't have that moral compass with which to know right from and wrong and he cannot change that fact. He can only control what he does in the present and the future. I think he has proven lately that he is on the side of good, and brooding about past sins does no good when you have evil in the world to vanquish. I am sure he will make mistakes along the way, but, utimately his values seem to be in line with Angel's.
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Post by makd on Nov 23, 2003 19:43:09 GMT -5
Hey Patti, Cool opening post--very creative. Now I'm another part behind. Sue--drive-by posting. (makd--I noticed all your "guest titles"--I think you don't sign in on purpose so you can be all creative in your sign-ins....you do realize that when you post as a guest the posts don't count toward your total (as if you needed them. ;D) Speaking of missing posters I emailed the "real" Mary this morning since we haven't heard from her in a while. No reply yet. Hi, Sue! I know the guest postings don't count. Sometimes, I don't log in, I just try to catch up on the postings, so I won't be so far behind when I really have time (like an hour). Then, I spot a comment I want to reply to, and boom! guest title... And, I hope Really Mary logs in soon. Maybe she's all busy with more chapters of Journeys/Awakenings? (pretty please...)
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Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 19:44:07 GMT -5
patti wrote:
Good going Patti. Great picture! I hadn't made it to the picture contest yet when you posted this, so I am late in my congrats, but here they are:
CONGRATULATIONS
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 23, 2003 19:44:30 GMT -5
Dave- Is that vagueness deliberate do you think or just a function of who is writing for the show at that particular time? I to, have a bit of a problem with the strong demarcation drawn between Angelus/Angel. One of the things that has always been prevelant in the Buffyverse is that although both shows have huge writing staffs, there has been a certain consistency, although it is stronger within the individual shows rather than across the board. That's always been attributed to Joss Whedon's degree of involvement -- nothing goes on the air unless it gets Joss' squeal of approval first. That said, it has always bothered me that at times there seems to be inconsistencies between the two shows that shouldn't be, such as Willow going from being scared of her shadow to be all strong and willing to face whatever comes in Los Angeles, or Angel/Angelus being one and the same during Amends but seemingly two different beings in AtS. These are the sorts of things that Joss himself is supposed to be paying attention to. The AtS writers don't write Willow regularly, for example, so it's up to him to tell them who Willow is, and ensure that their writing remains true to the character. I blame Joss' exhaustion level from trying to helm three shows at the same time. He wasn't as focused on all three as he'd have liked to have been.
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Post by Wendy on Nov 23, 2003 19:46:32 GMT -5
Sue wrote: Thanks Sue. I am glad someone noticed my corporeality. I was starting to feel like a ghost again.
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Post by makd on Nov 23, 2003 19:53:13 GMT -5
You know, that's hard for me - maybe it's because I grew up in California, and had virtually no experience with snow until my first winter in Seattle (where it only snows like once a year). I don't know what snow typically symbolizes. I do know that it's associated with something good about Christmas. . .and I know that *I* associate it with warmth and love; this maybe seems odd, but when it's really cold out, you make it really warm inside, and feel all cozy and snuggly. And the best snow experience I ever had was a long walk in the yearly Seattle snow with a former sweetie. What does it mean to folks who know more about it? "What Snow Means to Me" 10. Shoveling for 2 hours to clean the driveway, the sidewalk, and the path to the house. 9. Shopping for new boots, never finding what I like, so wearing the old ones. 8. Wearing 5 layers of clothes, so the cold won't penetrate. 7. Taking extra care when driving, so I won't get into a skid or drive over a patch of ice. 6. Making sure I always have extra windshield washers to replace the snowed-out ones. 5. Remembering to make sure that the car is winterized and the snow and ice scrapers are in the car. 4. Remembering to keep the lock de-icer in my purse, not in the car. 3. Buying "salt" to scatter on the walkways and sidewalk. I don't want anyone to fall and hurt themselves, plus, on Long Island? a lawsuit. 2. Getting home safely before the snow really starts to come down. 1. And, the #1 association I have with snow? Spring (the season ) can't be far behind.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 23, 2003 19:56:50 GMT -5
Sue wrote: Thanks Sue. I am glad someone noticed my corporeality. I was starting to feel like a ghost again. Hi, Wendy! Sorry, I was so busy reading, I hadn't noticed your fine new avatar - and I like the combination of quotes, too.
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Post by Rachael on Nov 23, 2003 19:57:35 GMT -5
"What Snow Means to Me" 10. Shoveling for 2 hours to clean the driveway, the sidewalk, and the path to the house. 9. Shopping for new boots, never finding what I like, so wearing the old ones. 8. Wearing 5 layers of clothes, so the cold won't penetrate. 7. Taking extra care when driving, so I won't get into a skid or drive over a patch of ice. 6. Making sure I always have extra windshield washers to replace the snowed-out ones. 5. Remembering to make sure that the car is winterized and the snow and ice scrapers are in the car. 4. Remembering to keep the lock de-icer in my purse, not in the car. 3. Buying "salt" to scatter on the walkways and sidewalk. I don't want anyone to fall and hurt themselves, plus, on Long Island? a lawsuit. 2. Getting home safely before the snow really starts to come down. 1. And, the #1 association I have with snow? Spring (the season ) can't be far behind. *Grin* Yeah, okay - it's easy to romanticize something that you don't have to put up with on a daily (and yearly) basis.
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Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 20:04:29 GMT -5
One of the things that has always been prevelant in the Buffyverse is that although both shows have huge writing staffs, there has been a certain consistency, although it is stronger within the individual shows rather than across the board. That's always been attributed to Joss Whedon's degree of involvement -- nothing goes on the air unless it gets Joss' squeal of approval first. That said, it has always bothered me that at times there seems to be inconsistencies between the two shows that shouldn't be, such as Willow going from being scared of her shadow to be all strong and willing to face whatever comes in Los Angeles, or Angel/Angelus being one and the same during Amends but seemingly two different beings in AtS. These are the sorts of things that Joss himself is supposed to be paying attention to. The AtS writers don't write Willow regularly, for example, so it's up to him to tell them who Willow is, and ensure that their writing remains true to the character. I blame Joss' exhaustion level from trying to helm three shows at the same time. He wasn't as focused on all three as he'd have liked to have been. Dave- As much as I agee with what you write above - I also adore reading all the ways people contort the narrative attempting to reconcile the internal inconsistencies. And I get convinced every time!!! If it were just one "artiste-auteur?* one could say that the overall dynamic reflects that person's own contradictions ( much as the fact that the more Dickens "likes" his female characters the more insipid they tend to become- some of his stongest and most dynamic female characters are those for whom he has little emotional affection but tons of authorial artistry is spent on making them leap off the page. Yes- I do adore Little Dorrit but I'd sooner be friends with most of his bad girls.) in terms of Buffy & AtS since there is a stable of writers it becomes rather more difficult to argue of "unconscious intent".
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 23, 2003 20:05:22 GMT -5
Nicky M wrote- Decided to change my avatar in honor of my new favorite noncouple. I think the fact that Wesley was willing to kill his own father to protect Fred will deter them from getting together. Not because she thinks he's being patronizing and overprotective, but because knowing that someone cares THAT much is too scary at the beginning of a relationship. I know it would be for me. I'd be so afraid that I'd disappoint that person later, that I'd probably never let the relationship get started Nicky M- I'd been wondering what the Jossverse would use as a reason to keep those 2 apart. What you suggest makes psychological sense and it explains why Fred has always ben so skittish about Wesley's response to her. The man has been mad for her since Season 3- and she runs from that intensity as though she had been burned. Didn't Fred and Gunn start to fall apart as a couple after Gunn killed Fred's old professor so Fred wouldn't have to do it? Could be the girl doesn't want a little monster in her man....
GAIL
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Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 20:05:45 GMT -5
"What Snow Means to Me" 10. Shoveling for 2 hours to clean the driveway, the sidewalk, and the path to the house. 9. Shopping for new boots, never finding what I like, so wearing the old ones. 8. Wearing 5 layers of clothes, so the cold won't penetrate. 7. Taking extra care when driving, so I won't get into a skid or drive over a patch of ice. 6. Making sure I always have extra windshield washers to replace the snowed-out ones. 5. Remembering to make sure that the car is winterized and the snow and ice scrapers are in the car. 4. Remembering to keep the lock de-icer in my purse, not in the car. 3. Buying "salt" to scatter on the walkways and sidewalk. I don't want anyone to fall and hurt themselves, plus, on Long Island? a lawsuit. 2. Getting home safely before the snow really starts to come down. 1. And, the #1 association I have with snow? Spring (the season ) can't be far behind. realist -
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Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 23, 2003 20:06:35 GMT -5
*Grin* Yeah, okay - it's easy to romanticize something that you don't have to put up with on a daily (and yearly) basis. While all of the above is true (two hours shoveling, etc), I've seen the alternative, the bleakness of winters without snow. I prefer the snow. I can handle it -- I have major medical.
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Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 20:07:33 GMT -5
Didn't Fred and Gunn start to fall apart as a couple after Gunn killed Fred's old professor so Fred wouldn't have to do it? Could be the girl doesn't want a little monster in her man....
GAIL ok- Gail - now I really have to think about that one- good catch!!!!
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