|
Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 23, 2003 17:53:50 GMT -5
Welcome to the current message thread of the Soulful Society! This is where to bring your discussion of all things relating to Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, the dark and broody one, and our founding inspiration, Spike. We have only two things we ask.... ONE: Keep all spoilers on un-aired episodes of Angel off this thread. Be an and take them to Spoiled Souls, where you will be greeted as if you were bringing them this.... ! TWO: When you post, don't be a . Be polite, think before you speak, and be respectful of the opinions of others. If you are new here (or even if you aren't) lurk a little, and visit our parent website The Soulful Spike Society at www.soulfulspike.com for reviews of Angel episodes, analysis of Buffy, brilliant fanfiction, clever poetry, and intimate details of the lives of the S'cubies... Enjoy!
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 23, 2003 17:57:17 GMT -5
I was caught in mid-post by the part closing. So here is what our Guest Julia said, and my response to it. Nan, yes, it's still Julia. I seem to have dumped a reply to someone (sigh) can't remember what it was, either. I think the "familial demon" of the Aurilians is distinguished by comparitively high intellectual ability (even daft Dru has it together enough to get Darla to Lindsay after they're burned, for instance) and an ability to see the possibilities of immortality in ways the run of the mill vamp lacks. The question I find myself asking, though, is whether this is nature in the sense of an essential quality of the demon in possession, so to speak, or a matter of choice of those who get turned. Argh. I will try to learn to quote, and maybe even try to focus long enough to register, but it'll have to be at a time when I don't have a husband and two teenagers who are supposed to be cleaning house but instead seem more motivated to interrupt, and a weeks shopping to do. Julia Thanks, Julia, for responding. I would go along with nature--so long as the demon nature is taken into account as well as the human nature. It's leaving the demon out of the equation entirely that I think is probably a mistake--considering it as only a minus to the base human personality and not a plus, as well, or a plus in only physical abilities.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 18:13:29 GMT -5
Nicky M wrote- Decided to change my avatar in honor of my new favorite noncouple. I think the fact that Wesley was willing to kill his own father to protect Fred will deter them from getting together. Not because she thinks he's being patronizing and overprotective, but because knowing that someone cares THAT much is too scary at the beginning of a relationship. I know it would be for me. I'd be so afraid that I'd disappoint that person later, that I'd probably never let the relationship get started Nicky M- I'd been wondering what the Jossverse would use as a reason to keep those 2 apart. What you suggest makes psychological sense and it explains why Fred has always ben so skittish about Wesley's response to her. The man has been mad for her since Season 3- and she runs from that intensity as though she had been burned.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 18:20:19 GMT -5
SandyShores- You have really piqued my interest in the episode now- I take it that is the second season of Angel? I am eagerly anticipating my family Xmas gift. Anne D (some pages back) was able to convince me to wait until Xmas- now you've started the hunger again- wicked girl Ellie, sorry to be wicked, but do yourself a favor and ask your family for an early present and watch S2 right now. Season 2 with Darla and Drusilla and Lindsey will add immeasureably to your enjoyment of this season of AtS. You can't begin to imagine how good it is. ;D Your Wicked S'cubie friend, Karen
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Nov 23, 2003 18:24:06 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, to death - I just finished re-watching Amends, and was noticing the parallels to It's a Wonderful Life.
For the most part, they're obvious, but there's one I just now noticed. The snow. The miracle snow that won't let Angel kill himself.
In IAWL, when George is in the "real world", it's snowing, and when he's in Clarence's alternate reality, it's not. Part of the tear-jerky scene in the end of that movie is also that it's suddenly snowing again.
I just love Amends. One of the best.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 18:28:48 GMT -5
Ellie, sorry to be wicked, but do yourself a favor and ask your family for an early present and watch S2 right now. Season 2 with Darla and Drusilla and Lindsey will add immeasureably to your enjoyment of this season of AtS. You can't begin to imagine how good it is. ;D Your Wicked S'cubie friend, Karen Karen- You are now my bestest friend- I just awakened my better half and informed him of your suggestion; he agreed ( anything to get extra snooze time and has now wended his weary way back to the bed after saying "if she told you to jump off a bridge..." so- the Amazon.dot com special is winging its demented self my way courtesy of your prompting - I was so close it took only a gentle whisper anyway- "look ma- no hands) I cannot wait to renew my aquaintance with my favorite season- I loved the "Are you now or have you ever been" episode-
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 18:29:31 GMT -5
Forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, to death - I just finished re-watching Amends, and was noticing the parallels to It's a Wonderful Life. For the most part, they're obvious, but there's one I just now noticed. The snow. The miracle snow that won't let Angel kill himself. In IAWL, when George is in the "real world", it's snowing, and when he's in Clarence's alternate reality, it's not. Part of the tear-jerky scene in the end of that movie is also that it's suddenly snowing again. I just love Amends. One of the best. Me too. Good observation about the snow. I didn't catch that. Just the obvious observation that the snow covers the darkness of the world and makes it seem less bleak. I wonder what the snow is an analogy for. Love? Hope?
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Nov 23, 2003 18:32:34 GMT -5
Hey Patti,
Cool opening post--very creative.
Now I'm another part behind.
Sue--drive-by posting.
(makd--I noticed all your "guest titles"--I think you don't sign in on purpose so you can be all creative in your sign-ins....you do realize that when you post as a guest the posts don't count toward your total (as if you needed them. ;D)
Speaking of missing posters I emailed the "real" Mary this morning since we haven't heard from her in a while. No reply yet.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 23, 2003 18:34:10 GMT -5
Karen- You are now my bestest friend- I just awakened my better half and informed him of your suggestion; he agreed ( anything to get extra snooze time and has now wended his weary way back to the bed after saying "if she told you to jump off a bridge..." so- the Amazon.dot com special is winging its demented self my way courtesy of your prompting - I was so close it took only a gentle whisper anyway- "look ma- no hands) I promise - no bridge jumping! Your better half sounds very wise. I figured it would take only a little nudging to convince you to jump get it now. I'm so excited for you to watch it. You are really in for a treat. Lots of darkness, and lots of funny stuff. Good ying and yang, and the setup for S3 is awesome. I think that comes out soon. It's on my Christmas list anyway. Along with the Firefly DVD. ;D
|
|
|
Post by Rachael on Nov 23, 2003 18:44:40 GMT -5
Me too. Good observation about the snow. I didn't catch that. Just the obvious observation that the snow covers the darkness of the world and makes it seem less bleak. I wonder what the snow is an analogy for. Love? Hope? You know, that's hard for me - maybe it's because I grew up in California, and had virtually no experience with snow until my first winter in Seattle (where it only snows like once a year). I don't know what snow typically symbolizes. I do know that it's associated with something good about Christmas. . .and I know that *I* associate it with warmth and love; this maybe seems odd, but when it's really cold out, you make it really warm inside, and feel all cozy and snuggly. And the best snow experience I ever had was a long walk in the yearly Seattle snow with a former sweetie. What does it mean to folks who know more about it?
|
|
|
Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 23, 2003 19:04:06 GMT -5
You know, that's hard for me - maybe it's because I grew up in California, and had virtually no experience with snow until my first winter in Seattle (where it only snows like once a year). I don't know what snow typically symbolizes. I do know that it's associated with something good about Christmas. . .and I know that *I* associate it with warmth and love; this maybe seems odd, but when it's really cold out, you make it really warm inside, and feel all cozy and snuggly. And the best snow experience I ever had was a long walk in the yearly Seattle snow with a former sweetie. What does it mean to folks who know more about it? I grew up in Florida, where a "white Christmas" meant either a trip to the beach or a shipment of cocaine was arriving from Colombia. My first experience with snow was boot camp just north of Chicago, and that was further compounded by three winters in gorgeous Iceland. Now I'm living in Maryland, and we get the fluffy white stuff quite frequently. There's just something very traditional and wonderful about snow. In the part of Florida I was in, we'd get some nasty cold winters, but rarely did we get any snow, and then it would rarely stick -- hence I don't count it. It's cold and grey and wet, and except for evergreens, the trees are all bare. Very depressing. Snow is pretty to look at, and it brings with it the promise of skiing and sledding and snowball fights. Frankly, the snow is what makes the miserable cold worthy of putting up with. That's why it's special to me. No real symbolism there.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 19:05:36 GMT -5
Me too. Good observation about the snow. I didn't catch that. Just the obvious observation that the snow covers the darkness of the world and makes it seem less bleak. I wonder what the snow is an analogy for. Love? Hope? Karen and Rachael- In the Greek story about Demeter ( goddess of the Hearth and Harvest) and Persephone- didn't Demeter cover the earth with snow (after she had withdrawn her largesse b/c Hades had kidnapped her daughter( Persephone) and taken her to his underground abode of the dead) as a promise that she would ultimately return Nature's bounty?
|
|
|
Post by ldelrossi on Nov 23, 2003 19:07:11 GMT -5
Rachael, AMENDS is one of my favorites as well. We see more of evil Angelus which reminds us that the demon who shares space with Angel was a cruel beast ever lurking beneath the surface. The anguish over those visions of his behavior as Angelus, plus the constant torment by the First in various guises to bite Buffy and kill her, forced him to give up, which shows us his human side. Angel also reveals more of his humanity when he says "I'm weak, I've never been anything else." This is Liam speaking. As Angel he tells Buffy "The world wants me gone," and he despairs that he will never atone for his crimes and is not really a true champion. So IMHO, we see all of the facets of the being of Angel in this episode. In regards to snow. I'm from NJ. Some years we have tons, other years nada. Here, although it is a burden because no one in NJ knows how to drive in it, it is generally viewed as cleansing. It washes the air and covers/hides the ugly brown, leaf strewn earth. So - Angel is cleansed and shown that it is not meant for him to die now. The PTBs are willing to let him suffer at the hands of the First, but are not willing to give up their warrior for good just yet. IMHO
|
|
|
Post by DaveCrenshaw on Nov 23, 2003 19:12:51 GMT -5
Rachael, AMENDS is one of my favorites as well. We see more of evil Angelus which reminds us that the demon who shares space with Angel was a cruel beast ever lurking beneath the surface. The anguish over those visions of his behavior as Angelus, plus the constant torment by the First in various guises to bite Buffy and kill her, forced him to give up, which shows us his human side. Angel also reveals more of his humanity when he says "I'm weak, I've never been anything else." This is Liam speaking. As Angel he tells Buffy "The world wants me gone," and he despairs that he will never atone for his crimes and is not really a true champion. So IMHO, we see all of the facets of the being of Angel in this episode. In regards to snow. I'm from NJ. Some years we have tons, other years nada. Here, although it is a burden because no one in NJ knows how to drive in it, it is generally viewed as cleansing. It washes the air and covers/hides the ugly brown, leaf strewn earth. So - Angel is cleansed and shown that it is not meant for him to die now. The PTBs are willing to let him suffer at the hands of the First, but are not willing to give up their warrior for good just yet. IMHO Amends also stands in stark contrast to last season of AtS. In Amends, Angel, Liam and Angelus are all treated very much as facets of the same personality, hence Angel's lamenting over the pain caused by Angelus. But last season on AtS, there was more of a distinction drawn between Angel and Angelus, like two completely seperate people sharing the same body, with no bleedover. Angel constantly spoke of Angelus like it was his evil twin brother who should be arriving by bus from Seattle at any moment. But Angel is Angelus, otherwise there would be no need for Angel to brood and suffer for the actions of Angelus. I prefer the lack of distinction drawn between Angel and Angelus as presented in Amends over the distinct seperation made last season on AtS. I prefer the vagueness; somehow, it just all makes more sense to me.
|
|
|
Post by ellie on Nov 23, 2003 19:23:35 GMT -5
Amends also stands in stark contrast to last season of AtS. In Amends, Angel, Liam and Angelus are all treated very much as facets of the same personality, hence Angel's lamenting over the pain caused by Angelus. But last season on AtS, there was more of a distinction drawn between Angel and Angelus, like two completely seperate people sharing the same body, with no bleedover. Angel constantly spoke of Angelus like it was his evil twin brother who should be arriving by bus from Seattle at any moment. But Angel is Angelus, otherwise there would be no need for Angel to brood and suffer for the actions of Angelus. I prefer the lack of distinction drawn between Angel and Angelus as presented in Amends over the distinct seperation made last season on AtS. I prefer the vagueness; somehow, it just all makes more sense to me. Dave- Is that vagueness deliberate do you think or just a function of who is writing for the show at that particular time? I to, have a bit of a problem with the strong demarcation drawn between Angelus/Angel.
|
|