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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Feb 9, 2006 20:54:10 GMT -5
Also, coconut--> radio. Gilligan's Island making a radio out of coconut. lol. maybe not.
And maybe "the long con" is Sawyer ultimately getting the group to retaliate against him?
Not sure I really understand Sawyer. Missing things from episodes I haven't seen.
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Post by Karen on Feb 9, 2006 21:45:18 GMT -5
**nods in agreement with the first bits and bounces in excitement over your last thought** Wouldn't that just be too tricksy for words? Would make for a heck of a thing to watch unveil itself, too! I don't understand the thought on the "long con" since the beginning, for Sawyer . . . no way he could have anticipated Ana Lucia, the hatch, the safe, etc . . . unless you mean . . . something else we've yet to learn about, that Sawyer has in mind? I don't think to work a Long Con that you need to know the details of the future. You just got to keep working your angle on the things you do know in order to get the upper hand. Like how he kept working on Kate by pointing out Jack and Ana Lucia's closeness and secretiveness - to make Kate do what he predicted she'd do. He also got Hurley to take an interest in Libby, etc. - don't know what that means. I think he was content to be outside of the group, until he got all his stuff taken from him and saw his chance to use Charlie to help stage a coup. And he really didn't like that Jack and Locke were in charge - not from the very beginning. He's very good at being bad, and those dimples.....he's a charmer and good at using them, too.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 9, 2006 21:59:34 GMT -5
I don't understand the thought on the "long con" since the beginning, for Sawyer . . . no way he could have anticipated Ana Lucia, the hatch, the safe, etc . . . unless you mean . . . something else we've yet to learn about, that Sawyer has in mind? I don't think to work a Long Con that you need to know the details of the future. You just got to keep working your angle on the things you do know in order to get the upper hand. Like how he kept working on Kate by pointing out Jack and Ana Lucia's closeness and secretiveness - to make Kate do what he predicted she'd do. He also got Hurley to take an interest in Libby, etc. - don't know what that means. I think he was content to be outside of the group, until he got all his stuff taken from him and saw his chance to use Charlie to help stage a coup. And he really didn't like that Jack and Locke were in charge - not from the very beginning. He's very good at being bad, and those dimples.....he's a charmer and good at using them, too. Sawyer is forever looking for an angle, that's for sure. And he's drop dead gorgeous. The dimples are killer. Sawyer - he's the classic "has constructed the bad-ass exterior to hide the hurting inner muppet" type. He sabotages himself and keeps himself miserable because it's the only way he knows how to be. When he jokes with Charlie about how Charlie has taken his spot as "most hated," he's not kidding all that much, underneath. Sawyer does want that "most hated" title back, - and, by golly, he gets it back!
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Post by RAKSHA on Feb 10, 2006 1:26:39 GMT -5
I never much cared for Sawyer, and this episode certainly didn't raise my estimation of the fellow.
While I certainly don't find him ugly, I don't find him extremely attractive, notable, sexy, etc. I had hoped that he had a spot of decency in him, but after viewing Wednesday's episode, I rather doubt it. He's made a difficult situation worse; and there is absolutely no justification for his masterminding the assault on Sun, an assault that resulted in her being hurt.
Now that Sawyer is the "Sheriff" of the Lostaways, what's to prevent him from cutting a deal with the Others? We've seen that he'll betray anyone...
The episode, and Sawyer himself, left a bad taste in my mouth...And I wasn't too happy with Charlie, agreeing to attack Sun, who had never hurt him, either.
GAIL
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Post by Matthew on Feb 10, 2006 4:56:42 GMT -5
Hi all! I miss you all! I haven't watched VM yet, so I'm all in regards to the other threads right now. I did watch Lost, though. Hawaii pretty. Sawyer. Issues! GAH! And: Oy! That said: Cons and people hating him are Sawyer's drugs of choice -- his pain-killers, so to speak ('Cause the pills and the beer got taken away along with the hatred.) He's got an awful lotta pain, doesn't he? I'd have way more sympathy if Sawyer's pain wasn't 86% self-inflicted. And if he weren't so intent on spreading it around. Thanks to Sawyer, Charlie's discovered a new drug now, too. Now Sawyer has blackmail material on Charlie. So does Charlie on Sawyer, but he wouldn't say anything unless Sawyer did. Unless he gets to 12-steppin'. Sawyer's con personally betrayed the people who trusted him the most: Kate and Jin. (Did I mention issues!!! ?) In a dysfunctional way, he's probably trying to find out if he's at all loveable at his worst. Kate will probably forgive him. Jin probably won't, if he ever found out. New island dynamics: Eroded full trust in Jack & Locke as leaders. Damaged trust between Jack & Ana-Lucia. Damaged trust even further between Jack & Kate. If any trust had even existed between Kate & Ana-Lucia, it would be gone. (Kate was *never* happy about the invasion of her woobie-hatch.) Sawyer's at the top of the hated list once again. Woo Hoo? Kate's step-daddy-issues with Sawyer have probably been eclipsed by her Sawyer-issues with Sawyer. Progress? In a way, Sawyer has strengthened Kate's position of power on the island, since she's the only one who can get through to him. She'd be the primary negotiator in any gun trade. I wonder how much that weighed in on his decision to run the con, in light of how she seemed to be frozen out of the army recruiting and other important decisions lately. In a very weird and twisty way, the situation (as it stands) seems less likely to get scarily violent. It comes with the way they all "used" guns in the past. Sawyer, with the exception of mercy- & revenge-for-parental- killings, only resorts to guns when directly threatened. Locke uses guns and other weapons to consolidate his good standing -- to teach (the way he did with Walt and Michael) and stock up on trust and gratitude. Come to think of it, that's just what his dad did with him. Huh. (I don't recall if Locke used guns to provide food for everyone, but he did seem to walk around armed a lot.) And how many times this season has Jack wanted to arm up and go after people? As a rescuer, maybe, but sometimes as an avenger. His access to everything made it difficult for anyone to argue that they thought it was a Very Bad Idea. Now he has to ambush or argue with Sawyer if he needs a firearm. Of course, the situation is only semi-tolerable if the trouble comes from within the group. If the group is under attack from the outside, Sawyer has made the situation that much more dangerous. For himself and for everyone else. Oy. Flash-er (Matthew's right: Flash-Sawyer doesn't have the same ring as Flash-Jack. And I agree with Lola about what *should* happen in any indecent Sawyer flashback) ;D: It's vital to make the victim complicit in their own conning. By making use of their own insecurities and weaknesses. When it comes right down to it, it still is all about the choices you make. There wasn't anyone in the car except Sawyer in the end. Even if he loved Cassie, he still chose to betray her. Whether he did it because of fear, self-loathing, greed or vanity, he made the decision freely. Even after he saw that she would've forgiven him for the lies up to that point. I wonder if this flashback was before or after he chose not to take money from the family with the little boy. Other stuff: Once again, it was demonstrated that while Jack is the doctor, Hurley is the healer. (Yay, Hurley!) Sayid needs a hug. Time warp? Huh. That would explain Walt's growth spurt of 2 years in some 50 odd days, wouldn't it? Linda, and did I mention Hawaii pretty? P.S. I really miss you guys. This is the first time in a while that I got to watch an episode as it aired instead of a recording a few days later. *waves frantically at Linda* Hihihihihihi!!! Your thing on guns made me ramble internally about the following... here it is, only partially digested. So, for people with military/quasi-military training, we got: Sayid: Elite shock troops, terror tactics(torture, etc) Command Officer. Locke: Survivalist training. Lone-wolf style. Jack: Possible military experience: knows how to handle guns. Not a field officer, if military. Kate: Military Brat. Ana-Lucia: Police Officer: not trained as leader, but has natural talent for it. Mister Eko: Crime Lord: Tactical and strategic skills. Jin: (Reluctant) Enforcer: One-on-One terror tactics. Tactical, not strategic. Sawyer: Military experience. Probable yo-yoing in non-com ranks(high intelligence, high insubordination tendencies), possible AWOL(don't see him staying too long once he got bored)... stayed through boot camp, because thinks of distances in Metric. (Wild-ass speculation based on one word, which he might have used intentionally to kick Jack into a "military" frame of mind on the whole thing, if he suspects Jack of being former military. Insufficient data, but the speculating is fun. ) And Hawaii very pretty! And we SO miss our late-night hit-and-run Linda action!
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Post by fish1941 on Feb 10, 2006 12:49:44 GMT -5
I never much cared for Sawyer, and this episode certainly didn't raise my estimation of the fellow.
While I certainly don't find him ugly, I don't find him extremely attractive, notable, sexy, etc. I had hoped that he had a spot of decency in him, but after viewing Wednesday's episode, I rather doubt it. He's made a difficult situation worse; and there is absolutely no justification for his masterminding the assault on Sun, an assault that resulted in her being hurt.
Now that Sawyer is the "Sheriff" of the Lostaways, what's to prevent him from cutting a deal with the Others? We've seen that he'll betray anyone...
The episode, and Sawyer himself, left a bad taste in my mouth...And I wasn't too happy with Charlie, agreeing to attack Sun, who had never hurt him, either.
GAIL I like Sawyer, but he has never been a major favorite of mine. However, I do agree that there was no justification for his actions in this past episode. In fact, it seems that ever since the Tailies' reunion with the Fusies, we've been seeing more of the Fusies' dark side - *We finally learned that Kate had murdered someone in cold blood, after a long period of speculation. Plus her actions in "The Hunting Party" and "The Long Con" were a bit questionable. *Jack's actions in "The Hunting Party" left me viewing him with a jaundiced eye. *Charlie's actions in both "Fire and Water" and "The Long Con" left a bad taste in my mouth. *Sawyer's power play in "The Long Con" also left a bad taste. *Judging from the previews of the next episode, it looks as if Sayid is about to go off the deep end. Although I could be wrong. One of the show's producers once promised that the Lostaways would be heading toward possible darkness by the end of Season 2. Are the recent episodes signs that this might possibly be happening? Are the Lostaways definitely heading toward a situation similar to "Lord of the Flies"? And were the Tailies' experiences in "Orientation", "Everybody Hates Hugo", ". . . And Found", "Abandoned", "The Other 48 Days" and "Collision" forshadows of what the other Flight 815 survivors might face in the near future?
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Post by Lola m on Feb 10, 2006 12:56:55 GMT -5
**nods in agreement with the first bits and bounces in excitement over your last thought** Wouldn't that just be too tricksy for words? Would make for a heck of a thing to watch unveil itself, too! I don't understand the thought on the "long con" since the beginning, for Sawyer . . . no way he could have anticipated Ana Lucia, the hatch, the safe, etc . . . unless you mean . . . something else we've yet to learn about, that Sawyer has in mind? **nods** Yes, something we haven't seen yet, or even just a general partnership / conspiracy thing - not a ste plan, just a goal. And he/they keep amending it as circumstances change.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 10, 2006 12:58:52 GMT -5
Rewatching Notes: Locke makes Jack promise that the two of them will always open the safe together, but later Locke opens it without him... because he wanted to do it before Jack did. Sawyer lost his reading glasses, which he requires to see fine detail, yet he can tell (well, not really) the hood is not the same as The Others used Hurley's song reference. What is the song, context, etc? Not familiar to me. My mom the wise one recognized that Sun's attacker had a wristwatch. The Others noticably don't have shoes, keys, wallets, and one would presume watches. Jack was later holding a similar looking watch, when he was watching Sun. Need money for a long con- true or not? Connection between Sawyer and his speech to the group in the end and Bearded Guys speech to the group in Hunting Party. Interesting! Did the Bearded Guy group start out like the fronties and tailies?
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Post by Lola m on Feb 10, 2006 13:12:00 GMT -5
Hi all! I miss you all! I haven't watched VM yet, so I'm all in regards to the other threads right now. I did watch Lost, though. Hawaii pretty. Sawyer. Issues! GAH! And: Oy! Much oy! ;D **nods** The original pain was done to him as a child - and he's responded to that by not moving on and wanting everyone else to be just a miserable as him. Ooooh, nicely put! **nods a lot** I tend to think that it's not a coincidence that Sun was grabbed. Not just because she was isolated and small enough physically to be more easily "grabbable" by one person. If Sawyer picked her, I'll bet some unconscious part of the reasoning was that Jin has been nice to him and so he had to be punished. Issues!Yep!! Not to mention all the generalized paranoia and distrust stirred up in everyone. Hmmmmm. I can see that. It would . . . link her to him more. Make more reasons why she'd have to talk to him, etc. I hadn't thought of it that way, but you may very well be right . . . Sawyer usually lets the other person do the damage to themselves. Of course, if the BOG others find the stash of weapons . . . Speaking of . . . I wonder if Sawyer hid them in a different part of the bunker? I know I wouldn't want to put them in the jungle myself. Too wet and too likely to be found by those who know the island better than I do. Oy, oy oy!! #smirk# #metoo# Very good question! Yes, Jack continues his "typical" surgeon weaknesses, not so good with the people part of the patient. Love me my Hurley! **volunteers** We miss you too!!! Hope your life gets less busy soon.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 10, 2006 13:13:18 GMT -5
I don't understand the thought on the "long con" since the beginning, for Sawyer . . . no way he could have anticipated Ana Lucia, the hatch, the safe, etc . . . unless you mean . . . something else we've yet to learn about, that Sawyer has in mind? I don't think to work a Long Con that you need to know the details of the future. You just got to keep working your angle on the things you do know in order to get the upper hand. Like how he kept working on Kate by pointing out Jack and Ana Lucia's closeness and secretiveness - to make Kate do what he predicted she'd do. He also got Hurley to take an interest in Libby, etc. - don't know what that means. I think he was content to be outside of the group, until he got all his stuff taken from him and saw his chance to use Charlie to help stage a coup. And he really didn't like that Jack and Locke were in charge - not from the very beginning. He's very good at being bad, and those dimples.....he's a charmer and good at using them, too. **nods** He's adaptable.
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Post by Lola m on Feb 10, 2006 13:14:20 GMT -5
I never much cared for Sawyer, and this episode certainly didn't raise my estimation of the fellow.
While I certainly don't find him ugly, I don't find him extremely attractive, notable, sexy, etc. I had hoped that he had a spot of decency in him, but after viewing Wednesday's episode, I rather doubt it. He's made a difficult situation worse; and there is absolutely no justification for his masterminding the assault on Sun, an assault that resulted in her being hurt.
Now that Sawyer is the "Sheriff" of the Lostaways, what's to prevent him from cutting a deal with the Others? We've seen that he'll betray anyone...
The episode, and Sawyer himself, left a bad taste in my mouth...And I wasn't too happy with Charlie, agreeing to attack Sun, who had never hurt him, either.
GAIL It's a house of cards he's building too. It's gonna all fall apart . . .
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Post by Lola m on Feb 10, 2006 13:16:00 GMT -5
I never much cared for Sawyer, and this episode certainly didn't raise my estimation of the fellow.
While I certainly don't find him ugly, I don't find him extremely attractive, notable, sexy, etc. I had hoped that he had a spot of decency in him, but after viewing Wednesday's episode, I rather doubt it. He's made a difficult situation worse; and there is absolutely no justification for his masterminding the assault on Sun, an assault that resulted in her being hurt.
Now that Sawyer is the "Sheriff" of the Lostaways, what's to prevent him from cutting a deal with the Others? We've seen that he'll betray anyone...
The episode, and Sawyer himself, left a bad taste in my mouth...And I wasn't too happy with Charlie, agreeing to attack Sun, who had never hurt him, either.
GAIL I like Sawyer, but he has never been a major favorite of mine. However, I do agree that there was no justification for his actions in this past episode. In fact, it seems that ever since the Tailies' reunion with the Fusies, we've been seeing more of the Fusies' dark side - *We finally learned that Kate had murdered someone in cold blood, after a long period of speculation. Plus her actions in "The Hunting Party" and "The Long Con" were a bit questionable. *Jack's actions in "The Hunting Party" left me viewing him with a jaundiced eye. *Charlie's actions in both "Fire and Water" and "The Long Con" left a bad taste in my mouth. *Sawyer's power play in "The Long Con" also left a bad taste. *Judging from the previews of the next episode, it looks as if Sayid is about to go off the deep end. Although I could be wrong. One of the show's producers once promised that the Lostaways would be heading toward possible darkness by the end of Season 2. Are the recent episodes signs that this might possibly be happening? Are the Lostaways definitely heading toward a situation similar to "Lord of the Flies"? And were the Tailies' experiences in "Orientation", "Everybody Hates Hugo", ". . . And Found", "Abandoned", "The Other 48 Days" and "Collision" forshadows of what the other Flight 815 survivors might face in the near future? I think this could get very dark! Very intriguingly dark.
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Post by Karen on Feb 10, 2006 15:15:04 GMT -5
Rewatching Notes: Locke makes Jack promise that the two of them will always open the safe together, but later Locke opens it without him... because he wanted to do it before Jack did. Sawyer lost his reading glasses, which he requires to see fine detail, yet he can tell (well, not really) the hood is not the same as The Others used Hurley's song reference. What is the song, context, etc? Not familiar to me. My mom the wise one recognized that Sun's attacker had a wristwatch. The Others noticably don't have shoes, keys, wallets, and one would presume watches. Jack was later holding a similar looking watch, when he was watching Sun. Need money for a long con- true or not? Connection between Sawyer and his speech to the group in the end and Bearded Guys speech to the group in Hunting Party. Sawyer filling the "leadership" void. Radio Station WX**, American. Very interesting notes, Liz! The remember seeing the flash of watch when Sun was being 'taken'. On the rewatch, I saw that it was Sun's. The person assaulting her had long black sleeves - same as Charlie's hoodie. Sawyer said you need money for the Long Con. They don't have money on the island, so what did he use to accomplish the Long Con - knowledge of his fellow castaways' weaknesses? Are you asking about "Moonlight Serenade" - Hurley's song reference? Written by Glen Miller in 1939. Big WWII song.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 10, 2006 15:29:37 GMT -5
Rewatching Notes: Locke makes Jack promise that the two of them will always open the safe together, but later Locke opens it without him... because he wanted to do it before Jack did. Sawyer lost his reading glasses, which he requires to see fine detail, yet he can tell (well, not really) the hood is not the same as The Others used Hurley's song reference. What is the song, context, etc? Not familiar to me. My mom the wise one recognized that Sun's attacker had a wristwatch. The Others noticably don't have shoes, keys, wallets, and one would presume watches. Jack was later holding a similar looking watch, when he was watching Sun. Need money for a long con- true or not? Connection between Sawyer and his speech to the group in the end and Bearded Guys speech to the group in Hunting Party. Sawyer filling the "leadership" void. Radio Station WX**, American. Very interesting notes, Liz! The remember seeing the flash of watch when Sun was being 'taken'. On the rewatch, I saw that it was Sun's. The person assaulting her had long black sleeves - same as Charlie's hoodie. Sawyer said you need money for the Long Con. They don't have money on the island, so what did he use to accomplish the Long Con - knowledge of his fellow castaways' weaknesses? Are you asking about "Moonlight Serenade" - Hurley's song reference? Written by Glen Miller in 1939. Big WWII song. Having never been a professional con artist, I know nothing about that life or that jargon - but here's how it seemed to me: I don't really see what Sawyer did in the ep (on the island) as a Long Con (like he did with Cassie) because I think he's referring to "length of time." You need money - a stake - for the Long Con, because it takes time and you have to seem trustworthy and financially secure during that time. I see what he did on the island this week as more of a Short Con. Like what he did to the rich boys a the gas pump. He dangled what he knew people wanted in their faces (as you say, used his knowledge of the way others would react), they quickly took the bait, he made his move - and voila - he got what he was after. But I do think the whole ep suggests that a Long Con is running - I'm not sure Sawyer is the one running it though. I wonder if the idea isn't related to the "button pushing." What I mean is, I wonder if the initial researchers (or whatever forces) aren't running a "Long Con" on the island, trying to play the people that get stranded there, toward some end.
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Post by Sara on Feb 10, 2006 16:34:37 GMT -5
Very interesting notes, Liz! The remember seeing the flash of watch when Sun was being 'taken'. On the rewatch, I saw that it was Sun's. The person assaulting her had long black sleeves - same as Charlie's hoodie. Sawyer said you need money for the Long Con. They don't have money on the island, so what did he use to accomplish the Long Con - knowledge of his fellow castaways' weaknesses? Are you asking about "Moonlight Serenade" - Hurley's song reference? Written by Glen Miller in 1939. Big WWII song. Having never been a professional con artist, I know nothing about that life or that jargon - but here's how it seemed to me: I don't really see what Sawyer did in the ep (on the island) as a Long Con (like he did with Cassie) because I think he's referring to "length of time." You need money - a stake - for the Long Con, because it takes time and you have to seem trustworthy and financially secure during that time. I see what he did on the island this week as more of a Short Con. Like what he did to the rich boys a the gas pump. He dangled what he knew people wanted in their faces (as you say, used his knowledge of the way others would react), they quickly took the bait, he made his move - and voila - he got what he was after. But I do think the whole ep suggests that a Long Con is running - I'm not sure Sawyer is the one running it though. I wonder if the idea isn't related to the "button pushing." What I mean is, I wonder if the initial researchers (or whatever forces) aren't running a "Long Con" on the island, trying to play the people that get stranded there, toward some end. I think you could argue that it was a long con, given the way Sawyer described the con itself: it's about getting other people to do what you want them to do while all along they think it was their idea. Given Jack's reaction to Michael's disappearance, Sawyer had excellent reason to believe he'd want to gather the forces to get whoever took Sun; from their interactions, Sawyer also knew Locke wouldn't jump right onboard that train. And he knew Kate would have little trouble believing ill of Ana Lucia, given that she was already jealous of how much time she and Jack were spending together. So all Sawyer had to do was make the right comment/inference at the right time--all three of them behaved exactly as he'd expected, resulting in Sawyer gaining possession of the guns entirely through actions taken voluntarily by the other three.
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