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Post by William the Bloody on Nov 9, 2004 10:48:28 GMT -5
Nice review Vlad. For an episode you didn't think much of, you sure gave us a lot to think about. Thank you! I re-read it after letting it sit for a couple hours and it doesn't look quite as bad as it did at first. I guess I jsut know where all the seams are. *L* That is, indeed, why I chose to define faith. I was always taught that faith was that belief that you have in something untangible. It is what allows people to believe and have "faith" in God. And, to me, it is the hardest stumbling block for most people when it comes to religion. Who wouldn't believe in God if they saw a tangible miracle or two....or if He spoke or appeared to them? But instead we have to have "faith" in Him because those things don't happen, or if they have, we have no reliable evidence to back it up. This could all be argued in a religious context, of course, but that's not my point. I am jsut trying to express my idea of "faith." I agree with you one hundred percent on Charley's low self-esteem. And to be fair, I was probably a little harder on him than I should have been. I think I was lashing out a little harsher because I don't feel that the writers wrote his means to addiction particularly well. I have been around plenty of addiction in my life, and it jsut didn't "feel" right to me. something intangible was slightly off. Mostly, his being so sensible and strong with Liam (his OLDER) brother to begin with in the church/school yard and then jsut getting meeker and meeker as time went by felt very off. And, of course, these are jsut my opinions. I jsut think the true test of temptation is to have the article in your face at many different times. Destroying your only bundle of drugs and then never being able to get more? I would say that Charley is probably gonna be able to get over his drug habit. I actually do believe that Charley is strong enough ot beat hte habit tho'. I think the "reason" he turned to them is what matters. If he can fulfill his self-esteem needs in other ways, then he probably won't feel the need of that crutch as much or as often. Yay! Disagreement! I don't think that Kate was necessarily out of line, jsut that they seemed to have sort of opened some lines of communication minutes before and why she would want to shut those immediately down, I don't know. But then, people don't always act in rational ways all the time...thank God! Thank you for reading the review and for taking the time to reply with your thoughts so fast! Vlad
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Post by Nickim on Nov 9, 2004 11:19:28 GMT -5
Thank you! I re-read it after letting it sit for a couple hours and it doesn't look quite as bad as it did at first. I guess I jsut know where all the seams are. *L* That is, indeed, why I chose to define faith. I was always taught that faith was that belief that you have in something untangible. It is what allows people to believe and have "faith" in God. And, to me, it is the hardest stumbling block for most people when it comes to religion. Who wouldn't believe in God if they saw a tangible miracle or two....or if He spoke or appeared to them? But instead we have to have "faith" in Him because those things don't happen, or if they have, we have no reliable evidence to back it up. This could all be argued in a religious context, of course, but that's not my point. I am jsut trying to express my idea of "faith." I agree with you one hundred percent on Charley's low self-esteem. And to be fair, I was probably a little harder on him than I should have been. I think I was lashing out a little harsher because I don't feel that the writers wrote his means to addiction particularly well. I have been around plenty of addiction in my life, and it jsut didn't "feel" right to me. something intangible was slightly off. Mostly, his being so sensible and strong with Liam (his OLDER) brother to begin with in the church/school yard and then jsut getting meeker and meeker as time went by felt very off. And, of course, these are jsut my opinions. I jsut think the true test of temptation is to have the article in your face at many different times. Destroying your only bundle of drugs and then never being able to get more? I would say that Charley is probably gonna be able to get over his drug habit. I actually do believe that Charley is strong enough ot beat hte habit tho'. I think the "reason" he turned to them is what matters. If he can fulfill his self-esteem needs in other ways, then he probably won't feel the need of that crutch as much or as often. Yay! Disagreement! I don't think that Kate was necessarily out of line, jsut that they seemed to have sort of opened some lines of communication minutes before and why she would want to shut those immediately down, I don't know. But then, people don't always act in rational ways all the time...thank God! Thank you for reading the review and for taking the time to reply with your thoughts so fast! Vlad Actually, a lot of people. Even in the Bible there are many who saw miracles, but didn't have faith. Even today, we have what could be called miracles of medicine and science, and yet many people have no confidence or faith in doctors, sometimes for good reason. I feel like it's almost a miracle when a plane gets off the ground. The evidence is that flying is much safer than driving, yet look how many people are terrified to fly and refuse to do so. It's funny you said "thank God" that people don't always act in rational ways, when you seem to want the characters to be rational! *L* For example, you want Jack to acknowledge Kate's interest and get together with her, Kate to stop letting Sawyer get to her, and the whole group to move to the caves and just have a look-out on the beach. Maybe it's always others we want to have act rationally, so that we can be the irrational ones?
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 9, 2004 16:07:11 GMT -5
First...'things you caught that I missed' (my ongoing list)
- the fact that Charlie in the backyard was wearing the clothes he wore on the plane. Makes perfect sense, just didn't notice and I love little details like that.
- your catch that Jack and Charlie were in the ONLY unstable tunnel. You put this in your question about the rock god and is the island a god, etc. Seemed to me you were suggesting that perhaps the tunnel wasn't unstable until it 'needed' to be. Which gets a 'wow...cool...' from me!
and You said...
"Kate has only some faith in Jack, and absolutely none in Sawyer. She places nearly all her faith, interestingly, in Sayid."
Oh that is so true, isn't it? And why is that? Does it correlate with what you (somewhere in this thread, if not the review) surmise about her 'crime'? That it was a crime of the heart? We know she loves Jack. We know she's attracted to Sawyer - is that why she can't put her faith in them? All her dealings with Sayid have seemed to me very straightforward, with no electric sparks. If for some weird reason she isn't attracted to Sayid maybe that's why she can trust him.
I'm babbling.
Next, I'm skipping right to the chase. You summarized with this...and I think it's extremely signficant.
"it seems that it is the “undecideds” that are the ones lacking faith. "
I think that's kewl, because Revelation 3:15-16 agrees with you Vlad. (It's one of my favorite passages, so I knew it.)
'I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to spit you out of my mouth.'
My thoughts are skipping all around here...
you said this about Locke -
"Lock has no more faith than the rest of them, just, seemingly, more information."
Remember how much faith Locke had before the plane crash? He planned that walkabout, he was SURE he could do it in the face of any logic - he was passionately certain. He believed in the impossible. I think that was his faith. In my opinion, now he's just been rewarded for it.
I also wanted to comment on what you said about Charlie at the end.
"It took some strength to toss the last of your stash in the fire. Thing is: Would you have had that strength tomorrow in the real world? It’s easy to have a moment of strength; it takes a real hero to maintain that strength for the rest of your life. "
I agree with you. Although I liked this episode and saw it as being more truthful than you did overall, and though I was touched and cried just when I was supposed to when the moth flew upward, i thought - 'pretty easy Charlie. How much longer would that bit of cocaine or whatever have lasted anyway?' He had asked why Locke hadn't just destroyed the drug - now he destroyed it. Oh I think he was right to! Stupid to leave the thing there as a constant temptation just so he could prove how strong he is by not taking it...but it loses a bit of the meaning knowing he can't get any more anyway.
Even though you didn't like the episode, you did a great job on it Vlad. Lots of good questions, lots of things to agree or disagree about. Thank you for sticking with it.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Nov 9, 2004 18:40:53 GMT -5
Good review, Vlad. You pinpointed what I didn't like about it, the heavy-handed messagey-ness.
So, we should think of this as the "Teacher's Pet" or "Inca Mummy Girl" of Lost? I can live with that.
My favorite thing of the last two episodes, though, is still the look on Charlie's face when he sees his guitar. He's quite an actor.
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LilRed
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 18
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Post by LilRed on Nov 10, 2004 11:46:44 GMT -5
Well here I am again, late, posting my thoughts. Oh well, maybe I'll do better next ep.
Very nice review, Vlad, particularly for an episode that didn't jump out at you. I enjoyed this one. So far my least favorite ep was White Rabbit. For some reason that one just didn't leave me as satisified as the others. And thanks for the nice comments in the previous thread. I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts and adding my own. (Now if I could just get here sooner....)
I agree with your comments on Dominic Monaghan’s portrayal of Charley. He's doing a really good job there. I also had a couple of thoughts about your questions.
I think he was feeling hurt about her lashing out at him, and decided to get back at her.
I also wondered if Charley's actions/words had something to do with the rockslide. It'll be interesting to see if we get more hints along this line.
I've dismissed Sawyer as the culprit for similiar reasons. Also, he seems too obvious. Locke was originally my culprit (although, yes, I agree, he's also obvious). I supposed that Charley could have told Locke about Kate & Sayid off camera and that Locke having gained so much, may not want to leave the island, being afraid that he could loose the ability to walk again. On presenting this theory to others, it was pointed out that Locke could stay even if the others were rescued, but I still don't think he'd want to stay there alone. Now though, I'm thinking that Locke is also too obvious a choice and perhaps its someone we don't know or don't suspect.
And thank you for the building skills comment! This one reached out and grabbed me as I watched the show too!
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 10, 2004 13:33:52 GMT -5
Vlad- I have very little time this week for posting, but I wanted to let you know that I read your review from start to finish and really enjoyed it.
I like "you all, everybody" as well, and yep - the moth imagery just got way overdone.
On your questions, I think:
Q: I don’t believe that Sawyer accidentally let it slip about Jack being trapped in the rockslide. The real question is his motive of letting it slip to Kate. Was it because he wanted to hurt her? Or was it because he felt she deserved to know? [/color]
A: I'm going with a bit of both. Q: Was it Charley’s proclaiming that he was a “rock god” that angered the island? Is the island some form of a god, or at least the environs of some type of god? Or was it just the vibrations from his shouting that triggered the rockslide? I think it interesting to note that they were standing in the only tunnel (according to Michael) that was unstable.
A: NONE OF THE ABOVE: I don't think the island was angered - I don't the island has any kind of . . . . personality or "humanity" or ability to be angered. I don't think his shouting did it, either. BUT, I do think that there is some sense in which the island responds to the emotional lives - the hopes and fears and loves and hates - of the castaways. I don't think the island, or any kind of sentient being is doing this in a conscious way, though. Q: Who (or what) clubbed poor Sayid? We saw Sawyer’s flare go off in the distance, so it was unlikely to be him. Besides, what motive does he really have? He might be the ultimate realist, but I don’t think he minds getting rescued. That leaves us Locke, who was unaccounted for and had some motive (ie. His working legs, his bargain with the island perhaps) to stop them from locating the signal. Thing is, Locke shouldn’t know about the signal. That leaves us an unknown passenger’s motive, or a complete stranger. The French lady perhaps? A super Vincent wanting to play fetch is almost as plausible at this point. (Thanks, Rob Sorenson, for that visual!)
A: My opinion: [/li][li]Sawyer: No way. Too far away. No motive. [/li][li]Locke: Remote possibility, but possibility. [/li][li]Unknown passenger: Lame possiblity, but possibility. [/li][li]Complete stranger: Hmm. This is my favorite, though I wouldn't put it this way exactly. I would say, "someone who is not one of the castaways from the current plane crash." [/li][li]French lady: No way. Dead. [/li][li]Vincent: Hee. Q: I loved You All, Everybody! Where can I download an MP3?
A: Don't know.
Back to the grindstone!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 10, 2004 18:29:31 GMT -5
Good review, Vlad. You pinpointed what I didn't like about it, the heavy-handed messagey-ness. So, we should think of this as the "Teacher's Pet" or "Inca Mummy Girl" of Lost? I can live with that. . snicker....
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Post by Vlad on Nov 10, 2004 23:01:52 GMT -5
Good review, Vlad. You pinpointed what I didn't like about it, the heavy-handed messagey-ness. So, we should think of this as the "Teacher's Pet" or "Inca Mummy Girl" of Lost? I can live with that. <snip> . But...but...but..I liked[/i] Inca Mummy Girl! It was one of my favorite S2 episodes! And being as Teacher's Pet was my first episode of BtVS ever, I can't really slam it either. *L* Vlad
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Post by Vlad on Nov 10, 2004 23:02:28 GMT -5
And quit your snickering! *squints* you put her up to that , didn't you? Vlad
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Nov 10, 2004 23:13:19 GMT -5
And quit your snickering! *squints* you put her up to that , didn't you? Vlad No, I swear I didn't! But it did make me laugh!
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Post by Lola m on Nov 11, 2004 11:48:07 GMT -5
Vlad – you did a fine job with an episode that wasn’t your favorite! (Not mine, either, for pretty much the same reasons. In particular, I felt the Moth metaphor, which could have been much more powerful if handled in a more subtle manner, seemed a bit forced at times. ) The theme of faith is really so much about faith in yourself. As you point out, Liam couldn’t “take” the music away from his brother, just as he didn’t “make” him start taking drugs. His decision to crawl into the cave to save Jack wasn’t made out of a belief in himself, but I think a bit of the ability and choice to dig back out, was. (Again, a bit obvious a metaphor, but still apt.) Loved your description of the two ways of thinking represented by Jack and Kate. Each side is acting emotionally, as if making a decision to stay on the beach or move to the caves will somehow mean that you have to change your basic philosophy. Truly, as you point out, the straightforwardly realistic and practical solution is to organize the group at the caves in such a way as to maximize survival while maintaining a rotating presence at the beach doing things to draw the attention of any rescue party. May I suggest an arrangement of bright colors not ordinarily found in nature and a large fire, people? Emotion (mostly fear – which is so typical of human beings) is keeping people from realizing they can keep their own specific beliefs or faiths while still following a logical plan of action on the island. Ooooh, good good point and turn of phrase regarding Locke!! The “playing with a stacked deck” bit. This is a very interesting way to view all his actions. And as we see him interact with other people, he is only pushing the idea of trusting the island, that specials things will happen, etc. He’s not sharing the “inside information” that he has. Granted, he likely thinks that most would not believe him, and maybe also that it would damage his image of a strong capable hunter guy, and perhaps a bit of “if I talk about it, will it all go away?”, too. Interesting to note that Sawyer, apparently very much a practical, pragmatic guy is among the “hopefuls” on the beach. Just to be near Kate? Because underneath it all he is also a “dreamer”? Because he simply prefers the freedom of movement on the beach? Just to get away from Jack? I need to add what we learned about Sawyer this week to these thoughts about the Moth episode. Also, how will the events of this week affect Sayid’s role as leader of the “hopefuls”? He had quite a blow to his own hopeful vision of the kind of man he was, the way he and others would behave, etc. As you point out, though, he – like Sawyer – has a more practical grounded view of the island and the skills needed to survive there. Really liked your comments about Micheal and Walt. That was one of my favorite bits of the show, when Walt really looks at his dad and sees him as a good competent man. (Notwithstanding the somewhat goofy idea that he would be able to take one look at a cave wall and know how stable it was.) I hope this is the beginning of them building a much better relationship! Eetah on Dom M’s acting as Charley. While I may have been a bit put off by some of the obviousness of the writing, I was certainly kept hooked by his performance. (I also really noticed the “for the rest of our lives” line. Just very nicely done.) Lola
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Post by Sue on Nov 15, 2004 14:53:49 GMT -5
I'm in agreement with you here, Vlad. The moth metaphor was clever, but a bit too "in your face" and the "trapped in a collapsing tunnel (twice)" was a little too predictable too.
This is an interesting observation, but I felt like the overall theme of the ep was more about living up to one's potential and making the effort to outgrow one's past "boxes" than it was about faith.
Charley was still in the the process of becoming who he was meant to be and the addiction was keeping him trapped in a lifestyle he needed to cast off to reach his full potential. If there was an element of faith to this growth, I would say it was a case of him having faith in himself.
Two comments and a question on this section:
I must have missed a part--there was a reference to his paralysis being 4 years old? (If this in answered somewhere in the discussion thread, I'll find it eventually--I haven't read thru the entire thread, but wanted to catch up on the reviews before Wed.)
As to Locke's faith: yes, he did have experiences on which to base his faith--and I do think that Locke's faith, while it may not be stronger, at least comes to him more easily than the others because he has direct evidence of some (supernatural) force at work. While I do firmly believe that for a belief to be "faith" requires some sort of "leap" of faith at some point in the chain of reasoning/evidence I do not think that real faith is totally baseless. I would call that superstition.
This was an interesting conversation.
I like this development.
I'm smelling Emmy here.
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Agreed. I really couldn't predict whether she was going to pull it off or not.
Agreed.
Personally, I just thought he was curious to see what she would do--just how deep her "thing" for Jack is?
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I'm going with "complete stranger."
And, finally I really loved your challenge to Charley:
Thanks for your hard work. Great review.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 29, 2004 22:41:08 GMT -5
Just a few things that re-struck me with this episode.
Charlie keeps going away in between times when he asks for his drugs. Which shows a part of him did want to quit, because he could have just asked three times in a row, got the stuff back and used it.
Why oh why does everyone keep assuming and yelling at Sawyer first and asking questions later? Can't they see it is only making him act worse?
The one line that really summarized Charlie's main issues is when his brother says "If you're not in the band, what bloody use are you?"
Lola
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Mar 16, 2006 11:49:17 GMT -5
Charlie does not look good.
Jack/Kate/Sawyer tension.
This one's a boar. Yep.
Charlie's confession, hee. Can't help putting a plug in.
Giving into temptations is a choice.
Music Slut. I want that t-shirt.
Locke using Charlie for bait. Not so funny.
Jin more OK with Sun "exposing" herself. Or Sun's more confident.
Hmm... theme of choice.
Charlie's ID wrapped up in the band.
We don't need you right now. Not good for Charlie.
Charlie couldn't be part of the band without his identity being wrapped up in it. How strong is he really? Locke insightful or just telling him what he needed to hear?
Hurley sees Kate/Jack important enough by this point.
Sayid noticing how unusual the plane crash is. Significant? Kate thinks no.
Huh, that's where the Scott-Steve thing comes from.
Shannon is useless.
Keep doing whatever it is you do around here.
Michael- 8 years of construction.
I don't trust him with you. Old fashioned chivalry?
Michael finally corrects Hurley about Sun and Jin being Korean.
Charlie's alone here. Not the only one though, but he sees it that way.
Sawyer dares to compare himself to Jack! Gasp!
Sawyer's an ass.
Who wrote and performs Driveshafts song, I wonder?
Charlie's co-dependent.
Now Liam is Driveshaft, not Charlie.
"End of the Rainbow"
Identity crisis
I love nail polish on guys.
Jack and Charlie's need to take care of other people, connection.
Liam sort of abandoned Charlie, but Charlie can't blame it all on him. But then Liam offers to help. Brother issues.
Why Charlie was on the flight.
Caves as confessional
Shannon is almost usesless. Girl she's talking to almost looks like Rousseau.
So who thwacked Sayid?
Kate sort of worships Jack. Wonder how she'll react to learning he's not perfect.
Does Locke have a younger brother like Charlie?
Being a youngest child myself, I sympathize with Charlie, never feeling like people let him do things, etc. I would hate being called "baby brother" all the time, if I were him. He doesn't seem to mind though.
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