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Post by leftylady on Oct 13, 2006 17:10:17 GMT -5
I am jsut saying that is why I am convinced he sent a second guy. He wanted to make sure the job was done. It was VERY important to him. Vlad Or Daddy Dearest himself. I'm also not convinced Jae committed suicide. The falling, the breaking glass and again it's Sun's fault (in some way). But my instincts say it's either an accident (like the falling figurine) or Daddy again took drastic measures to punish Sun. (The whole situation reminds me of when D'Hoffryn kills Halfrek to punish Anya.) leftylady, trust me to look to the sinister!
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Oct 13, 2006 17:11:28 GMT -5
something jsut struck me as well... the whole tie in to the glass ballerina. Daddy DID have Jae tossed out that window. It was exactly like him being forced to fire the maid because of Sun's goof-up. For him it's more important to save face than to actually apply the blame where it at least equally belongs. Sun was there in another man's bed quite voluntarily. She was "touching the no-no." But instead of "spanking" Sun for the misdeed, he retained her "honor" by doing somethign that was wrong. I know, I know... you already knew this. I am jsut saying that is why I am convinced he sent a second guy. He wanted to make sure the job was done. It was VERY important to him. Vlad Clever comparison, you two! I hadn't thought of that dual image of the statue and Jae both falling . . . #metoo#
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Post by leftylady on Oct 13, 2006 17:16:54 GMT -5
Clever comparison, you two! I hadn't thought of that dual image of the statue and Jae both falling . . . eetah on the cleverness!!!
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Post by Sara on Oct 13, 2006 19:50:34 GMT -5
We don;t know how long it took for Jin to get back down to his car. I find it quite plausible that Jae would have picked up the necklace, thinking of Sun as he tried to come up with a plan on how to flee the country and disappear. Maybe he was even thinking of asking Sun to come with him (tho i doubt that...he was awful snivelly while getting the crap beaten out of him)... NO, I can't dismiss at all the idea that maybe a secondary "assassin" chucked him out htat window.. and directly onto Jin's car as a "message" perhaps. You know "When Daddy of Sun wants something done, it will be done, jsut as he says, no matter WHAT you want to do." Don't forget that Jin originally was "light" on his first assignment. Daddy probably knows of his tendency to be merciful. I could see him sending a backup. Vlad Yes - it could go either way. My guess is that he killed himself, but there is no real proof of anything besides the fact that he, somehow, took a tumble - like a glass ballerina off a mantle - out the window, and shattered. I was sorry to see him go. He was a cutie pie. To me, the strongest evidence that Jae killed himself is that he was clutching the pearls in his hand; only he and Sun knew the signficance of that particular piece of jewelry, as I don't believe Daddy Dearest saw it when he came in the bedroom.
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Post by Moscow Watcher on Oct 14, 2006 4:51:44 GMT -5
Hey, anybody else has the impression the The Others are also the lab rats? That they're also the victims of an experiment conducted by another power structure? That they have already gave up and accepted their role as guinea pigs - or, rather, kind of "capos" in the concentration camp (figuratively speaking)? And it's very important to them to break the will of newbies to prove to themselves that they made the right choice because there is no other way?
Overall impressions of the first two episodes (I watched them today back to back). The third season is a metaphor of XX century - an era of terrible social experiments. If the first season was about the dawn of civilisation, about man and nature, and the second - about the industrial revolution, man and technical progress, then, logically, the third season should be about humanity's recent past, which includes concentration camps and experiments on people.
The theme of the season, it seems to me, is the free will, choices and responsibility. I suppose Jack will have to choose in the next episode if he operates and saves the woman Sun has shot. Kate and Sawyer will have to choose between attempting to escape and making the other suffer.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 14, 2006 9:02:27 GMT -5
Yes - it could go either way. My guess is that he killed himself, but there is no real proof of anything besides the fact that he, somehow, took a tumble - like a glass ballerina off a mantle - out the window, and shattered. I was sorry to see him go. He was a cutie pie. something jsut struck me as well... the whole tie in to the glass ballerina. Daddy DID have Jae tossed out that window. It was exactly like him being forced to fire the maid because of Sun's goof-up. For him it's more important to save face than to actually apply the blame where it at least equally belongs. Sun was there in another man's bed quite voluntarily. She was "touching the no-no." But instead of "spanking" Sun for the misdeed, he retained her "honor" by doing somethign that was wrong. I know, I know... you already knew this. I am jsut saying that is why I am convinced he sent a second guy. He wanted to make sure the job was done. It was VERY important to him. Vlad I took the image exactly the opposite way - what I mean is, the glass ballerina falls - it's Sun's fault, not the fault of a servant of Daddy's. Jae falls - it's Sun's fault, not the fault of a servant of Daddy's (i.e., he kills himself for the love of Sun - not really "her fault" in an ultimate sense, but you get my drift). So - lots of ways of looking at it. To me, the pearls were there to tell us that he killed himself. I am guessing that this isn't something that will ever be definitively answered in the series though, so will always be open to interpretation.
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Post by SpringSummers on Oct 14, 2006 9:04:33 GMT -5
Hey, anybody else has the impression the The Others are also the lab rats? That they're also the victims of an experiment conducted by another power structure? That they have already gave up and accepted their role as guinea pigs - or, rather, kind of "capos" in the concentration camp (figuratively speaking)? And it's very important to them to break the will of newbies to prove to themselves that they made the right choice because there is no other way? Overall impressions of the first two episodes (I watched them today back to back). The third season is a metaphor of XX century - an era of terrible social experiments. If the first season was about the dawn of civilisation, about man and nature, and the second - about the industrial revolution, man and technical progress, then, logically, the third season should be about humanity's recent past, which includes concentration camps and experiments on people. The theme of the season, it seems to me, is the free will, choices and responsibility. I suppose Jack will have to choose in the next episode if he operates and saves the woman Sun has shot. Kate and Sawyer will have to choose between attempting to escape and making the other suffer. I think that "The Others" are also being experimented on is surely a possibility. Ben saying that he "grew up on the Island" - very weird. Hard to imagine he's as savvy and knowledgable as he seems to think he is. I also wonder about Walt & Michael. I can't believe they've really "gone home," and I think Ben is lying to Jack about that.
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Post by Maria on Oct 14, 2006 9:29:39 GMT -5
I also had a similar thought, especially if Ben is on the level about growing up on the island.
My thought was that Dharma, when they got there, HAD performed abusive experiments on the settlers, and that's why the Others are so convinced they are the good guys (and it's the only way that I can foresee the audience in any way gaining sympathy or empathy for them at this point).
My thoughts, however, didn't go into the acceptance field. I was thinking that perhaps there was an uprising and they've eliminated most of Dharma. Ben, for example, didn't see to have any knowledge of Desmond and, more to the point, his boat. Perhaps Desmond and Inman were the only Dharma people left (well, okay then, Inman). The uprising could also be the "incident" that left the video guy without an arm?
If this is the case, the Others would be understandably fearful of anyone new on the island with a questionable past, accepting the people they find to be "good" and tormenting the others...the abused becoming the abuser...something like that.
Or not, lol. Who knows!
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Post by Karen on Oct 14, 2006 13:18:16 GMT -5
something jsut struck me as well... the whole tie in to the glass ballerina. Daddy DID have Jae tossed out that window. It was exactly like him being forced to fire the maid because of Sun's goof-up. For him it's more important to save face than to actually apply the blame where it at least equally belongs. Sun was there in another man's bed quite voluntarily. She was "touching the no-no." But instead of "spanking" Sun for the misdeed, he retained her "honor" by doing somethign that was wrong. I know, I know... you already knew this. I am jsut saying that is why I am convinced he sent a second guy. He wanted to make sure the job was done. It was VERY important to him. Vlad I took the image exactly the opposite way - what I mean is, the glass ballerina falls - it's Sun's fault, not the fault of a servant of Daddy's. Jae falls - it's Sun's fault, not the fault of a servant of Daddy's (i.e., he kills himself for the love of Sun - not really "her fault" in an ultimate sense, but you get my drift). So - lots of ways of looking at it. To me, the pearls were there to tell us that he killed himself. I am guessing that this isn't something that will ever be definitively answered in the series though, so will always be open to interpretation. Yes. And whichever way it happened, the fact remains that it is because of Sun that he died. The pearls might have been there to remind us of that.
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Post by leftylady on Oct 14, 2006 15:24:28 GMT -5
Right there with you, scooter. I didn't think it was a Buffy reference. I believe it was a nod to Buffy fans. I mean, didn't Kate have some of Sawyer's fish biscuit since she had breakfast with Benry? Also, why would they chose strawberries instead of coffee or eggs or some other thing she may have had at the breakfast (other than the fact that strawberries sound prettier and more feminine and sweet )? Besides, it gives me a happy when my fandoms collide (like VM and BSG), so I'll keep believing that Drew threw that in there just for me. ;D "you taste like strawberries" ... "Shortcake" Gee, I missed the Drew Goddard writing credit. Cool. I missed the Willow/Strawberry Crack Whore connection. But ... not only are strawberries more romantic than coffee or eggs, the others just are not mixy things with shortcake! leftylady, who got quite a chuckle out of Sawyer this episode ps If Sawyer can work the long con, he is smart enough to plan to give away his fake plan without the Others or us figuring him out. I hope. pps Was Connie really unarmed? I gave my tape to a coworker who was gone on vacation so I can't check. Whether or not she was, the other Others were, so if I were backed into a corner by scary Others who had previously menaced the entire Losties group, I'd shoot too.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 15, 2006 8:31:03 GMT -5
Hey, anybody else has the impression the The Others are also the lab rats? That they're also the victims of an experiment conducted by another power structure? That they have already gave up and accepted their role as guinea pigs - or, rather, kind of "capos" in the concentration camp (figuratively speaking)? And it's very important to them to break the will of newbies to prove to themselves that they made the right choice because there is no other way? Overall impressions of the first two episodes (I watched them today back to back). The third season is a metaphor of XX century - an era of terrible social experiments. If the first season was about the dawn of civilisation, about man and nature, and the second - about the industrial revolution, man and technical progress, then, logically, the third season should be about humanity's recent past, which includes concentration camps and experiments on people. The theme of the season, it seems to me, is the free will, choices and responsibility. I suppose Jack will have to choose in the next episode if he operates and saves the woman Sun has shot. Kate and Sawyer will have to choose between attempting to escape and making the other suffer. Very interesting thoughts!
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Post by Moscow Watcher on Oct 15, 2006 9:15:18 GMT -5
I thought about it too. But there is strange dissonance between people discussing metaphors and keeping other people in cages. They are not torturing them. It's not about torture. It's about psychological tests. Like somebody is studying human behavior by using other humans as tools. But of course they're imprisoned in another island facility - where a dozen of Tailies are kept... OK, another question. Did Kate's behavior seem weird to you? She doesn't try to escape when Sawyer launches the attack on the guards. We know she's very tough - but she doesn't even lift a finger to help him. Either she's instinctively understands the impossibility to escape by traditional means or [conspiracy theory mode] she's a deep undercover agent oà some anti-Dharma organization with a mission to infiltrate the Dharma structure. Seriously, the episode starts with Ben sending spies to Losties and Tailies. It would be a great twist to have somebody who has been sent to spy on him. And - remember the toy plane? [/conspiracy theory mode]
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Post by Karen on Oct 15, 2006 9:28:46 GMT -5
Hey, anybody else has the impression the The Others are also the lab rats? That they're also the victims of an experiment conducted by another power structure? That they have already gave up and accepted their role as guinea pigs - or, rather, kind of "capos" in the concentration camp (figuratively speaking)? <snip> I got the same impression - that The Others are also the lab rats, or that they once were the lab rats and have now taken over running the experiment in order to get things from the outside world.
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Post by Karen on Oct 15, 2006 9:32:57 GMT -5
I believe it was a nod to Buffy fans. I mean, didn't Kate have some of Sawyer's fish biscuit since she had breakfast with Benry? Also, why would they chose strawberries instead of coffee or eggs or some other thing she may have had at the breakfast (other than the fact that strawberries sound prettier and more feminine and sweet )? Besides, it gives me a happy when my fandoms collide (like VM and BSG), so I'll keep believing that Drew threw that in there just for me. ;D "you taste like strawberries" ... "Shortcake" Gee, I missed the Drew Goddard writing credit. Cool. I missed the Willow/Strawberry Crack Whore connection. But ... not only are strawberries more romantic than coffee or eggs, the others just are not mixy things with shortcake! leftylady, who got quite a chuckle out of Sawyer this episode ps If Sawyer can work the long con, he is smart enough to plan to give away his fake plan without the Others or us figuring him out. I hope. pps Was Connie really unarmed? I gave my tape to a coworker who was gone on vacation so I can't check. Whether or not she was, the other Others were, so if I were backed into a corner by scary Others who had previously menaced the entire Losties group, I'd shoot too. Hee! Strawberry Shortcake! I missed that. Maybe there were strawberries on the Benry breakfast table. Whether or not Connie was armed (I don't think she was), just being backed into a corner and not knowing whether or not Connie came alone would've made me shoot, too.
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Post by KMInfinity on Oct 15, 2006 11:10:10 GMT -5
Now THAT would be a helluva twist. Kate's been an Other from the beginning? HAVE we seen, in her flashbacks, that she was actually on the plane? Or in the land down under? Oh wait, if the Others do have contact with outside, then it's conceivable that she was planted on the plane from the beginning. Okay, unlikely, but interesting speculation! Hi, Maria!
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