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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2004 16:04:01 GMT -5
Rob, loved your Eli-Lilly comment. ;D What I liked about this ep. is they finally found (IMO) a really good balance btwn light (Weevil and Logan) and dark (everything else). I like Logan, even tho' he's pretty messed up. My reaction to the eyes in the apartment: Yeaugh! That would totally creep me out. Fun to see "Parker" again; glad he was less of a jerk this time. Seems pretty obvious this isn't the first time Sara's run out on him, hence the lack of concern. I saw Veronica's "freeze frame" as just the realization of who fathered Sara's baby, unrelated (no pun intended) to her own parentage. I do believe Keith is Veronica's father. I totally agree on the nice mix of light and dark, heavy and funny in this ep. Very well done! Congrats on the 800th post, too! ;D Lola
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Post by Lola m on Nov 12, 2004 16:06:09 GMT -5
Woo hoo, Spring! Another lively and thought-provoking review! You really helped me see the common thread running between the “main” Story of the Week and the subplot with Weevil and Logan. Veronica wondering how much she is responsible for the way things turned out for Sara, and Logan realizing that he has to step forward and take his share of the responsibility for what he and Weevil did. The similarity really hadn’t sunk in for me. Thanks! Plus, I think we’ve all learned our lesson about underestimating the size of Logan’s cajones. ;D On a more serious note, I liked your turn of phrase with: Ahhh, the familial relationships. (**snicker, snicker** “Who’s your daddy?” ) Enjoyed your list of the various ways that fathers were mentioned or referenced, I hadn’t taken direct notice of some of them. I also think they are implying the “Jake is Veronica’s daddy” thing too much for it to turn out to be the case (and I also agree that Veronica’s . . . . pause by the refrigerator was meant to show she is wondering about this too). While I hope the story doesn’t go this route, I am also becoming more confident that if any show could do this in a non-cheesy, non-stereotypical way, this would be the show to do it. I am wondering though, if Duncan’s mother could have been so . . . nasty as to lie and say this to Duncan even when it isn’t true in order to get him to break up with Veronica. It would be a heck of an inducement. “She’s actually your sister, Duncan!” **dramatic chords* “You can’t possibly keep seeing her! Oh, but don’t say anything to anyone, especially your father, because we must keep this scandal quiet.” Finally, I loved your little meditation on “what’s real”. The possibility of Weevil and Lilly as brother and sister is looking not so impossible and frankly, we’ve got so many directions this could all go that I’m well and truly hooked. This show is proving to be very good with the mislead and the red herring and the noir twists, so we’ll just have to stay tuned I guess. Not exactly a hardship in my mind. Once again, very nice job, Spring! Lola
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Post by Karen on Nov 12, 2004 18:26:33 GMT -5
Spring, enjoyed your review - lots of interesting ideas to mull over! however...the line that sticks in my mind - 'let it slide' - that's a SEXUAL reference? Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.... but the flagpole stuck through the car? DEFINITELY an 'up yours'.... ;DI don't want Jake to be Veronica's father either - it would just be sad and depressing and this show has enough of that, intermixed with the funnies from Weevil and Logan. I just don't know...nothing seems any clearer than it was the first episode - in fact LESS clear. Someone said this show is closer to 'Twin Peaks' than Buffy - and I'm kinda in agreement. So I think it's possible things ARE going to be that convoluted, but I hope not. I like Keith Mars and want him to be Veronica's pop! I agree with you - I think Weevil and Lily are biological siblings. Thanks Spring! LOL! I didn't even get that at the time.
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Post by Karen on Nov 12, 2004 18:55:05 GMT -5
Spring - Very nice review. Good exploration of the "good neighbor" theme. You always take a chance of getting involved in other people's trouble when you interact with them.
Good neighbors lend a hand, when you're tired of playing with yourself. Interesting that it was Weevil who pulled Logan out of his game of solitaire. (And I'm not thinking slash here. Nope.)
I like how you pointed out the "misleads" and how we/Veronica might have been mislead also.
What's real? Indeed - what is? I sure the heck don't know at this point. I'm expecting a twist that we haven't come up with yet, and I hope they resolve some of it this season.
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Post by Queen E on Nov 13, 2004 3:44:27 GMT -5
Spring - Very nice review. Good exploration of the "good neighbor" theme. You always take a chance of getting involved in other people's trouble when you interact with them. Good neighbors lend a hand, when you're tired of playing with yourself. Interesting that it was Weevil who pulled Logan out of his game of solitaire. (And I'm not thinking slash here. Nope.) I like how you pointed out the "misleads" and how we/Veronica might have been mislead also. What's real? Indeed - what is? I sure the heck don't know at this point. I'm expecting a twist that we haven't come up with yet, and I hope they resolve some of it this season. Hee! Finally got to see the first 15 minutes of the episode, and no, no slashy subtext there! Everyone has done such a lovely job commenting on the episode and Spring's review, all I can add is an eetah. Lovely work, Spring; you always find at least half a dozen things that eluded me...I'm glad I taped this one, so I can rewatch it with your analysis in mind!
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 13, 2004 8:16:58 GMT -5
Woo hoo, Spring! Another lively and thought-provoking review! You really helped me see the common thread running between the “main” Story of the Week and the subplot with Weevil and Logan. Veronica wondering how much she is responsible for the way things turned out for Sara, and Logan realizing that he has to step forward and take his share of the responsibility for what he and Weevil did. The similarity really hadn’t sunk in for me. Thanks! It had a "Am I my brother's keeper?" theme, and the answer, I think was "Well, yes." If Veronica and Duncan are siblings, then they've already started on the cheese with the "they fell in love, but now they cannot be together." So . . . I dunno. I like the writing and acting well enough to stick with it probably, but that will just be disappointing. No - I don't think they will go this route. Because Lianne was also very distraught to learn Veronica was dating Duncan. So whatever it is - I think it's real, not made up by Duncan's mom or anyone else. Thanks for the feedback, Lola.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 13, 2004 8:22:10 GMT -5
Spring - Very nice review. Good exploration of the "good neighbor" theme. You always take a chance of getting involved in other people's trouble when you interact with them. Good neighbors lend a hand, when you're tired of playing with yourself. Interesting that it was Weevil who pulled Logan out of his game of solitaire. (And I'm not thinking slash here. Nope.) I like how you pointed out the "misleads" and how we/Veronica might have been mislead also. What's real? Indeed - what is? I sure the heck don't know at this point. I'm expecting a twist that we haven't come up with yet, and I hope they resolve some of it this season. Logan isn't alone in his grief over Lilly - though with Duncan so . . . out of it, and with his shunning of Veronica, he has probably been "playing solataire" in dealing with the death ('cause I'm thinking mom & dad aren't the type he can go to.) But unbeknownst to him, Weevil shares his grief. I'm with you on hoping they resolve some of this before the end of the season. I'm not at all sure we will get a season 2, for one thing! And thanks for the feedback, Karen.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 13, 2004 8:24:42 GMT -5
Hee! Finally got to see the first 15 minutes of the episode, and no, no slashy subtext there! Everyone has done such a lovely job commenting on the episode and Spring's review, all I can add is an eetah. Lovely work, Spring; you always find at least half a dozen things that eluded me...I'm glad I taped this one, so I can rewatch it with your analysis in mind! Look for all the references to creating our own worlds - do this and that and the other to ourselves . . . the girl drawing a picture of Paradise, and then going there . . . all the art work, juxaposed against the stories of how we must reach out from our own world (into reality, not Paradise) to interact. Thanks for the feedback, Erin.
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Post by Karen on Nov 13, 2004 10:42:56 GMT -5
Logan isn't alone in his grief over Lilly - though with Duncan so . . . out of it, and with his shunning of Veronica, he has probably been "playing solataire" in dealing with the death ('cause I'm thinking mom & dad aren't the type he can go to.) But unbeknownst to him, Weevil shares his grief.I'm with you on hoping they resolve some of this before the end of the season. I'm not at all sure we will get a season 2, for one thing! And thanks for the feedback, Karen. Oh - so true! I didn't think of that. So, we're assuming that Weevil knows that truth about Lilly being his sister? I'm betting we'll get a Season 2. And - You're Welcome.
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Post by Queen E on Nov 14, 2004 0:57:56 GMT -5
Look for all the references to creating our own worlds - do this and that and the other to ourselves . . . the girl drawing a picture of Paradise, and then going there . . . all the art work, juxaposed against the stories of how we must reach out from our own world (into reality, not Paradise) to interact. Thanks for the feedback, Erin. Oh, most definitely. It extends even to the heart-shaped cutout of Jake and Lianne, as if they occupied their own little world. And on that note, I thought it was most interesting that the prom theme banner over their heads was "Love is Thicker than Water." I'm on the side that says Duncan and Veronica are not related, especially since the jump cut right after Veronica reads this is to Weevil shutting up his friends for trash talking Lilly. I think Lianna could be upset simply because she and Jake were having an affair, and it's kind of creepy to have your daughter dating the son of the man you're seeing extramaritally.
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Post by Sue on Nov 15, 2004 12:52:25 GMT -5
Hey Spring.
Finally getting around to commenting on the great review. (Hoping I also get time in the next week to go back thru the whole thread.) I used to hate "off" weeks on Angel and Buffy but my life is so busy I'm really grateful for the extra week to comment on this episode.
Altho, gotta say, have no idea how I will do a review during Thanksgiving week with all the kids in town--not just the dinner, but we run in a charity race that morning and attend 4 basketball games over Friday and Sat. as part of a tournament.
So----likely you all will be "treated" to a spur-of-the-moment these are my immediate thought review next week with very little in the way of deep thoughts.
On to Spring's review:
Yes, I found it interesting that Veronica had doubts about her involvement. I assumed that maybe her dad had killed someone. But--the bad guy was only wounded and as sad as the situation was I can't help but think that identifying and incarcerating a sexual predator is a good thing. Plus, Sara clearly needed it to come out and get emotional help. Yes, people were hurt, but I don't see why Veronica wonders if it might be better if she'd stayed out of it.
Reading thru the thread I think a lot of us agree that it must be a mislead lead because a) it's too obvious and b) that would be too banal and mostly c) a whole lot of time and effort has been invested in developing the Keith/Veronica parent/child dynamic and contrasting it with the dysfunctional parent/child versions of Logan and Duncan and Lilly/mom at least. (As for Weevil---no apparent parental units around at all! Just grandma. Altho, that is not conclusive evidence.)
So--I just don't see them suddenly shouting, "ha, faked-you-out" regarding Keith. And--I did love that the Chihuahua was named Killer.
I like your list of what we know for sure. Discovering that the break-up occurred before the murder is a pretty big deal.
And, I certainly wouldn't put it past Mrs. Kane telling Duncan that Veronica was his father's illegitimate daughter -- just to separate them -- (and then Duncan confessing it to Lilly) without it actually being the truth. She'd rely on Duncan not wanting to hurt Veronica by ever telling her the truth, so there would be no way the lie could be refuted. Unless..........it'd be interesting if at some point in the future Duncan goes to Jake and asks for the truth.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 15, 2004 13:56:57 GMT -5
Hey Spring. Finally getting around to commenting on the great review. (Hoping I also get time in the next week to go back thru the whole thread.) I used to hate "off" weeks on Angel and Buffy but my life is so busy I'm really grateful for the extra week to comment on this episode. Altho, gotta say, have no idea how I will do a review during Thanksgiving week with all the kids in town--not just the dinner, but we run in a charity race that morning and attend 4 basketball games over Friday and Sat. as part of a tournament. So----likely you all will be "treated" to a spur-of-the-moment these are my immediate thought review next week with very little in the way of deep thoughts. So - Veronica is not on this week? I didn't realize that till just now. Yes - go for the "immediate thoughts" review. Do what you need to do. I actually type as I watch, very . . . stream of consciousness kind of thing - then I go back and push and shove and fill in and rearrange and send it. I'm not going for thorough. I'm going for speed. Not impossible, but I would be disappointed in a "Duncan's mom lied" scenario. That is a pretty wild lie to make up, with the high potential of being extraordinarily hurtful to others, and of being found out. We know almost nothing about Duncan's Mom, so I don't have the feeling that I "wouldn't put it past her." Right now, I would put it past her - at the very least, she doesn't seem dumb and desperate enough. Yes, she seems very "society conscious" (but then, so is Jake) and like she was having problems successfully and wisely dealing with her teenage daughter - but those two things aren't enough to convince me she's that much of bee-yatch. Also, from Lianne's reaction to the news that Veronica is dating Duncan, we can see that there is a real problem of some kind. Someone mentioned that maybe it is simply that Lianne was having an affair with Jake. Duncan's mom could have told him that - no need to make up a wild lie about Veronica's parentage. That would be enough to break up with her. I mean, as in "Well, Duncan, your Dad is having an affair with her Mom - this is just too unbearable for me. Please break it off." Not that I think the answer is "Lianne was having an affair with Jake." That doesn't really seem right either. Hmmm. I am clueless. I am determined to come up with a theory here, though . . . what's left?
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Post by Sue on Nov 15, 2004 14:59:24 GMT -5
So - Veronica is not on this week? I didn't realize that till just now. Yes - go for the "immediate thoughts" review. Do what you need to do. I actually type as I watch, very . . . stream of consciousness kind of thing - then I go back and push and shove and fill in and rearrange and send it. I'm not going for thorough. I'm going for speed. Not impossible, but I would be disappointed in a "Duncan's mom lied" scenario. That is a pretty wild lie to make up, with the high potential of being extraordinarily hurtful to others, and of being found out. We know almost nothing about Duncan's Mom, so I don't have the feeling that I "wouldn't put it past her." Right now, I would put it past her - at the very least, she doesn't seem dumb and desperate enough. Yes, she seems very "society conscious" (but then, so is Jake) and like she was having problems successfully and wisely dealing with her teenage daughter - but those two things aren't enough to convince me she's that much of bee-yatch. Also, from Lianne's reaction to the news that Veronica is dating Duncan, we can see that there is a real problem of some kind. Someone mentioned that maybe it is simply that Lianne was having an affair with Jake. Duncan's mom could have told him that - no need to make up a wild lie about Veronica's parentage. That would be enough to break up with her. I mean, as in "Well, Duncan, your Dad is having an affair with her Mom - this is just too unbearable for me. Please break it off." Not that I think the answer is "Lianne was having an affair with Jake." That doesn't really seem right either. Hmmm. I am clueless. I am determined to come up with a theory here, though . . . what's left? Getting really off the wall here, with no evidence. Maybe Jake and Lianne found out they were related, thus ending their liason. That might make V and D some sort of cousins. Actually, I'm thinking Lianne's reaction may simply have been based on recalling how she was with Jake and it (presumably) ended badly and she doesn't want the same heartbreak for Veronica.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 15, 2004 15:11:58 GMT -5
Getting really off the wall here, with no evidence. Maybe Jake and Lianne found out they were related, thus ending their liason. That might make V and D some sort of cousins. Actually, I'm thinking Lianne's reaction may simply have been based on recalling how she was with Jake and it (presumably) ended badly and she doesn't want the same heartbreak for Veronica. I sure hope they clear up that little mystery - why Duncan broke up with Veronica - if nothing else, by the end of the season. I am about ready to theorize that it has something to do with Bigfoot.
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Post by Sue on Nov 15, 2004 16:22:07 GMT -5
I sure hope they clear up that little mystery - why Duncan broke up with Veronica - if nothing else, by the end of the season. I am about ready to theorize that it has something to do with Bigfoot. Right after he bonked Sayid on the head!
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