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Post by Sue on Dec 1, 2004 12:23:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I had a real problem with the idea that Veronica shredded the test results. She's been presented all along as someone to whom the truth is important, particularly when it comes to her friend's death. I just don't see the character as I understand her being willfully blind to something so important not only to herself but as the potential answer to so many of her questions regarding Duncan's sudden cold shoulder and Lily's death. Amen sister! It seemed out of character. Of course, it does explain why she had to go into her dad's bedroom (why would the shredder be in his bedroom?) in the middle of the night to do the shredding--she knew darn well that if she didn't shred it immediately she would give in and look. If I were Keith I'd be taping stuff together in the morning! And--also frustrated that she hasn't told him about the bogus alibis and threatening pictures AND the date rape--all these secrets are going to threaten his trust bigtime.
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Post by Sue on Dec 1, 2004 12:29:06 GMT -5
FYI:
Next week is a repeat: The Return of Kane (student council ep; Aaron Echols).
But Dec. 15 is a new ep and the tv guide write up looks great! (I didn't find any specific spoilers in it, but follow your own gut if you don't like to know anything about the plot ahead of time.)
GG, on the other hand has 2 repeats.
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Post by Lola running by on Dec 1, 2004 12:39:36 GMT -5
Timeline-wise: 1. Lilly and Veronica have conversation in car (flashback) where Lilly tells V to watch out for Mama Kane because she hates and fears anyone who "Duncan might love more than her." 2. Duncan breaks up with V out of the blue with no explanation and acts weird. 3. V asks Lilly to check out #2. 4. Lilly reports back to V and says to drop it (giving strong impression that Duncan has in fact explained himself to her but no way is she passing the explanation on to V.) My conclusion: Celeste told Duncan that Veronica is his half-sister to break them up; Duncan told Lilly. So--why did that lead to Lilly's death? Going with the Celeste did it theory, either: A) Because Lilly was going to blab about V being Jake's daughter and Celeste didn't want Veronica to become acknowledged by Jake and share in the inheritance. (This still doesn't prove anything about V's parentage. Celeste may believe Lianne carried Jake's baby but that doesn't make it true.) B.) Because Lilly was going to blab about V being Jakes' daughter and Celeste knew it was a lie and didn't want Duncan to hate her for making up such a horrid lie. ( If Celeste is the murderer I definitely see it as a "crime of passion"--she and Lilly were fighting and she went nuts) C.) Lilly found out it was a lie and was going to expose Celeste. All of these account for Celeste using the head of Kane security to follow and send threatening pictures of Veronica to Lianne. Because Lianne knows (well, maybe she doesn't!) who the real father is, but either way she can bring down Celeste by exposing the truth or exposing her lie. ---------------------------- Other possibilities: Lilly went to Lianne and Lianne killed her because it wasn't true but would ruin her life and Keith's and V's. Lilly found out it wasn't true and went to Lianne and Lianne killed her because she wants Jake to believe it is true, which is why he was paying her off at the motel in the first episode. ---------------------- Here ends today's theories. And, I still think, like last week, that now that the show has been extended to 22 episodes the info about Lilly's murder has slowed to a trickle. Wow. You know, your Celeste theories are starting to look very very plausible to me. Very interesting, clever possible story lines here, Sue. Brava! Lola
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:07:19 GMT -5
If I remember right, it was a flyer about a sale or coupon for a Chinese resteraunt or something like that. **sigh** Man, I sure love Veronica's dad. He is just one great guy. Lola That's what I was thinking too. I just love Keith. (Are we going to have to fight over yet another man, Lola?)
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:08:01 GMT -5
He had his car back, and his walk. I think he'd really been 'deprogrammed'. Yes. Well played. It was all in his walk. He had been deprogrammed.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:10:02 GMT -5
Rerun next week. I forget which one--not ep. 1. I'd guess no new eps until January--but since the ratings have been improving slightly each week even the re-runs may do well since people who have discovered it more lately will be willing to go back and watched stuff they missed the first time around. But one of the upcoming eps (one after next) is called "An Echolls Family Christmas." I looked this stuff up because of our reviews. Is that spoilery? Let me know on that. The title gives nothing away, except that I think we will have two eps before Christmas.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:13:15 GMT -5
I didn't have a problem with the photos - that was just edited to be fast, but you could see all the steps she followed to figure it out. (Although the restaurant credit receipt from many months ago, shared with a kid just walking up . . . . hmmmm.) But the milk carton was sloppy. Would have been just as easy to have her find out about Rain naturally because she had been investigating. Like, she had done a search on all the people there before to see what turned up and came home to find these results after she'd already decided to stop investigating. Or something like that. Lola Milk carton fit with the drinks theme. Milking the cow. The KoolAid. All the water.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:15:13 GMT -5
LOL! I was sure that the "cash crop" was going to be maryjane. But nope - pointsettias. They sure were a happy bunch. Especially that smiley teacher. It was kind of freakin' me out how "nice" she was - like it was really just a face she was putting on. I wish I had taped it so I could rewatch the scene in the greenhouse where the leader of the 'cult' was talking about how money was important. I can't help but think that there is a clue there to solving the whole Veronica/heiress question. How about that "friendly welcoming kiss," between Josh and Holly, right in front of Veronica. I'm still not sure what to make of that.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:16:44 GMT -5
He really loved his grandmother, tho. I can see where he might be 'playing the game' until he sorts things out. Was that flashback that Veronica had with Weevil reciting a poem in front of the class for real? I mean, couples snuggling with each other during class? Yes, that was very strange. I kinda assumed the poem reading was real, the snuggling was wishful thinking - it felt that way, the memory is that way, the feeling of love and snuggling being translated into actuality in the memory.
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Post by SpringSummers on Dec 1, 2004 15:20:06 GMT -5
I have more thoughts on some of the stuff mentioned, but I hit some of this in my review. So I wanna keep some suspense! Must log off now. Such a busy day! My evening is full also, but will try to check in before bed. Later, S'cuties.
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Post by leftylady on Dec 1, 2004 16:52:37 GMT -5
I haven't had the time to read the thread yet but wanted to interject a few thoughts. (sorry if repeating anyone's prior post)
"nature" vs "nurture" as a theme:
First of all, Veronica 's "natural" father vs "nurturing" father. The need to resolve the unsettling claim by Abel of her paternity comes down to who is the "real" father, the one with matching DNA (who may or may not be Jake) or the one who cares for her. Regardless of the evidential truth, Keith is the father that matters. One issue resolved "emotionally" but not ”factually" leaves the core mysteries unchanged. In the end we don't know if Jake's still to be disproved ties to Veronica have anything to do with her mother's leaving, Lily's death, and the reasons why Duncan broke up with Veronica.
Casey's true "nature": is it the uncaring Mr. Cool or the down to earth cultist with a heart? What part of his nature, if any, did he inherit from his parents who obviously care more for grandma's money than their son?
And the "deprogramming": If "nurturing" is the environmental/external impact on personal development, talk about putting a negative spin on that concept! Deprogramming is about as extreme as one can get in that direction outside a concentration camp.
Hope to be back after catchup reading. Lots to think about.
leftylady
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Post by Lola m on Dec 1, 2004 20:46:39 GMT -5
That's what I was thinking too. I just love Keith. (Are we going to have to fight over yet another man, Lola?) No, no! I am happy to worship Keith from afar. I'll just take Logan and Weevil over here to the corner for a while. ;D Lola
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Post by Lola m on Dec 1, 2004 20:50:27 GMT -5
I haven't had the time to read the thread yet but wanted to interject a few thoughts. (sorry if repeating anyone's prior post) "nature" vs "nurture" as a theme: First of all, Veronica 's "natural" father vs "nurturing" father. The need to resolve the unsettling claim by Abel of her paternity comes down to who is the "real" father, the one with matching DNA (who may or may not be Jake) or the one who cares for her. Regardless of the evidential truth, Keith is the father that matters. One issue resolved "emotionally" but not ”factually" leaves the core mysteries unchanged. In the end we don't know if Jake's still to be disproved ties to Veronica have anything to do with her mother's leaving, Lily's death, and the reasons why Duncan broke up with Veronica. Casey's true "nature": is it the uncaring Mr. Cool or the down to earth cultist with a heart? What part of his nature, if any, did he inherit from his parents who obviously care more for grandma's money than their son? And the "deprogramming": If "nurturing" is the environmental/external impact on personal development, talk about putting a negative spin on that concept! Deprogramming is about as extreme as one can get in that direction outside a concentration camp. Hope to be back after catchup reading. Lots to think about. leftylady **nods to all of this** Yeah - I think they were definitely paralleling the idea that Casey's "nurturing" non-blood family at the compound being much better and more important than the "natural" family that kidnapped and deprogrammed him for his grandmother's money and the idea that Keith is a more nurturing and better family for Veronica than Mr. Kane with all his money (if, indeed, he actually is V's real biological dad). Lola Woah. That's one long sentence! Even for me!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Dec 3, 2004 16:27:54 GMT -5
Spring I enjoyed your review! Your pick up on the 'water' theme' was great - I hadn't (natch) gotten that, but it definitely fits doesn't it?
In this case, the koolade was harmless...even refreshing and healthy, like water.
And I agree with you about the paper shredding - I get the device...but it didn't quite work because it was so extreme and left some very important questions unanswered - not just her parentage, but her relationship. Even if she is 'done' with Duncan, it's just got to be a big question in her mind forever.
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Post by Lola m on Dec 4, 2004 13:13:15 GMT -5
Spring, once again you stun me with your ability to find the metaphor, dig beneath the surface, pull the ideas together. Like Veronica, you are helping us to figure out the angles, sit in the chair, make some shrewd guesses and decisions. Like Patti, I missed so many of the water references. Or rather, not so much missed them as missed their importance – how many of them there were. The water bed, the shower, the water guy, etc. etc. Up to and including the girl name – Rain. Wow!! I saw all those things, but I didn’t see them! I find it interesting how easily we, just like Veronica, are cynical about the freely offered simple niceness of the group. Love, as you say, is a very nice carrot to use. But this isn’t a destructive cult, is it? No one it trying to get your money or your independence or mind or soul or body. This appears to be friendship or love without a price tag, without a trade-off or requirement. And that, unfortunately, appears to be somehow suspicious to all of us. Like you and Patti, I also think that, from a longer term perspective, the shredding was a bad idea. And like several of us have commented, the reason for the late night visit to dad’s shredder means that Veronica herself knows, at least inside, that it’s not a good idea. She’s shredding it because she knows if she kept it in her hands any longer she was going to open it. Of course the best idea, talking to her dad, is probably not going to happen unless forced. Great relationship they may have, but there are still so many undercurrents pulling in different directions. It’s gonna take a long time, and perhaps some brutal honesty on both her and Keith’s part before we get to all the hidden issues. Lola
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