Vlad still unlogged
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Post by Vlad still unlogged on Feb 16, 2005 17:24:27 GMT -5
Didn't the Deputy say he was only 20 yrs old? And Veronica is . . . 16 or 17? The age difference is very small, so I don't get any oook. BUT, he is a deputy and she is a minor, so definitely he would be extremely foolish and out-of-line to expect or try to go after sex. But they could still date. After everthing that's happened to her, I'm sure Veronica would want to take it slow, regardless. Veronica is 17 and the deputy is 20 (but legal to be in bars? Maybe jsut with his band, performing?) But I dont find it ooky at all even if he is 21... she is a very mature 17 year old and I would have to say that he is not that mature a 20-21 year old, deputy status notwithstanding. The biggest wrongness I find in most older/younger pairings(assumming we are talking 17-18 year olds and people dating them that are over say 23-24) is the role of hte person that is dating hte younger. Teachers should not date their younger students. And in the case that was presented last night, the man (V's teacher) has a real problem much beyond simply falling for a person slightly too young for them.. . He was a predator. Vlad
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Feb 16, 2005 17:27:19 GMT -5
Veronica is 17 and the deputy is 20 (but legal to be in bars? Maybe jsut with his band, performing?) But I dont find it ooky at all even if he is 21... she is a very mature 17 year old and I would have to say that he is not that mature a 20-21 year old, deputy status notwithstanding. The biggest wrongness I find in most older/younger pairings(assumming we are talking 17-18 year olds and people dating them that are over say 23-24) is the role of hte person that is dating hte younger. Teachers should not date their younger students. And in the case that was presented last night, the man (V's teacher) has a real problem much beyond simply falling for a person slightly too young for them.. . He was a predator. Vlad Having finally gotten around to watching my VM tape - yes, the teacher was slime. I thought the whole issue (predator teacher) was well and delicately handled. This was an interesting episode, especially with the plot twist, and the scene at the end with Veronica and her dad was very sweet. It's still a show I have to remember to watch, but it's not a chore.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 17:41:58 GMT -5
Veronica is 17 and the deputy is 20 (but legal to be in bars? Maybe jsut with his band, performing?) But I dont find it ooky at all even if he is 21... she is a very mature 17 year old and I would have to say that he is not that mature a 20-21 year old, deputy status notwithstanding. The biggest wrongness I find in most older/younger pairings(assumming we are talking 17-18 year olds and people dating them that are over say 23-24) is the role of hte person that is dating hte younger. Teachers should not date their younger students. And in the case that was presented last night, the man (V's teacher) has a real problem much beyond simply falling for a person slightly too young for them.. . He was a predator. Vlad Yes - agree. The teacher betrayed his students and his responsibility as a teacher. Predator is exactly the right characterization. The other horrible part was how he treated his young girlfriend when she got pregnant. He was a predator and a user. The deputy does not have that kind of teacher responsibility with Veronica, but he is a public servant, including Veronica's servant (oooh! sounds kinda sexy!) and for him to break the law with Veronica would also be a betrayal of his role as a deputy. So - I don't think it would be oooky. I don't get any squick. But, it would be foolish,and out-of-line given his job - he'd surely lose his job. Plus - Keith! If V is 17, better to just date and get to know one another and just wait. She'll be 18 soon enough. I think V would want to take it slow anyhow, and if Leo is the good guy I hope he is, he would be willing to do that. I like Leo. So far, he's the only one I've noticed any sexual chemistry with for Veronica (including Duncan).
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Post by Matthew on Feb 16, 2005 19:08:31 GMT -5
Veronica is 17 and the deputy is 20 (but legal to be in bars? Maybe jsut with his band, performing?) But I dont find it ooky at all even if he is 21... she is a very mature 17 year old and I would have to say that he is not that mature a 20-21 year old, deputy status notwithstanding. The biggest wrongness I find in most older/younger pairings(assumming we are talking 17-18 year olds and people dating them that are over say 23-24) is the role of hte person that is dating hte younger. Teachers should not date their younger students. And in the case that was presented last night, the man (V's teacher) has a real problem much beyond simply falling for a person slightly too young for them.. . He was a predator. Vlad In Florida, if one party is 16 or 17, and the other party is not yet 24 (I think) they are still legal on age-of-consent. Just mentioning it as a somewhat sane compromise, at odds with Florida's usual insane take on things.
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Post by Rob on Feb 16, 2005 19:16:30 GMT -5
So - I don't think it would be oooky. I don't get any squick. But, it would be foolish,and out-of-line given his job - he'd surely lose his job. Plus - Keith! If V is 17, better to just date and get to know one another and just wait. She'll be 18 soon enough. I think V would want to take it slow anyhow, and if Leo is the good guy I hope he is, he would be willing to do that. I like Leo. So far, he's the only one I've noticed any sexual chemistry with for Veronica (including Duncan). Let me clarify my original position. Vlad and Spring: based on what you've said, does this mean you'd be cool with Xander taking it slow with, say, Dawn in Season 7 if they started dating? The age difference is virtually the same. Putting the legal issues aside, I'm generally ok with the chronology in both cases; four or five years is less than nothing, really. I'm simply saying such things should be taken on a case by case basis depending on the individuals involved. A legal line has to be drawn somewhere, though...and generally speaking in America that's 18 years of age. In the case of Xander and Dawn I'd be more than ok with it, especially if I were Buffy. In this case, however, we know precisely jack about Leo other than he's a sweet-natured deputy who plays in a band. That leaves me on the fence between ok and ooky. The jury is, and for while should remain, out. So there.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 19:27:07 GMT -5
Let me clarify my original position. Vlad and Spring: based on what you've said, does this mean you'd be cool with Xander taking it slow with, say, Dawn in Season 7 if they started dating? The age difference is virtually the same. Interesting point, Rob. Here's my first reaction: But Xander is like a big brother to Dawn! So that part bugs me. But - I can't picture Xander going from having the "big-bro" feel for Dawn, which is what he always had, to seriously considering her date-material. I mean, yes, he noticed she was becoming a beautiful woman . . . but think how he reacted when he realized the pretty girl he was admiring was Dawn. He himself was not comfortable with it. I just can't imagine Xander ever getting into the mindset needed. But we know that Veronica and Leo are mutually attracted to each other, and Leo isn't at all freaked by being attracted to the 17 yr old Veronica - he's got no "big-bro" feeling for her, or history of "babysitting her" or having a big crush on her sister . . . I agree that physical agewise only, Xander/Dawn is very close to Leo/Veronica. But there's more to it than age.
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Post by Rob on Feb 16, 2005 19:50:31 GMT -5
But - I can't picture Xander going from having the "big-bro" feel for Dawn, which is what he always had, to seriously considering her date-material. I mean, yes, he noticed she was becoming a beautiful woman . . . but think how he reacted when he realized the pretty girl he was admiring was Dawn. He himself was not comfortable with it. I just can't imagine Xander ever getting into the mindset needed. Oh, I can't either. Not until he gets accustomed to the idea of Dawn as an independent adult...and that would take years, at least. I was just using them to prop up my case by case argument...and to demonstrate how different things can appear when we know people personally, as opposed to a dispassionate distance. Xander and Dawn are "family" to most of us on this board, while Leo is virtually unknown. I'm willing to give Leo the benefit of the doubt, though. For now, he seems ok. But I'm watching him. *Rob squints with suspicion*
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 16, 2005 19:57:20 GMT -5
Oh, I can't either. Not until he gets accustomed to the idea of Dawn as an independent adult...and that would take years, at least. I was just using them to prop up my case by case argument...and to demonstrate how different things can appear when we know people personally, as opposed to a dispassionate distance. Xander and Dawn are "family" to most of us on this board, while Leo is virtually unknown. I'm willing to give Leo the benefit of the doubt, though. For now, he seems ok. But I'm watching him. *Rob squints with suspicion* Yes- Xander & Dawn are a perfect pair with which to make your point. It is very case-by-case in this kind of situation. As for your suspicious squinting . . . perchance your own lascivious thoughts about Veronica and her cheerleading outfit are fueling your suspicions of poor innocent Leo?
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Post by artemis on Feb 17, 2005 11:21:42 GMT -5
I think it would be hard to threaten a dying man - my thought there is: What would constitute a serious threat? You're dying anyhow. Whereas it would be easy to get him to do something like take a life sentence for a murder if there is some kind of payoff. All very speculative, though. but if he's dying anyway, what would a suitable payoff be if it didn't concern a loved one somehow? what i mean is that i think either way (coercion or payoff), it probably involves some loved one of koontz whom we haven't heard about/seen yet.
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Post by artemis on Feb 17, 2005 11:36:02 GMT -5
<snip> So - I don't think it would be oooky. I don't get any squick. But, it would be foolish,and out-of-line given his job - he'd surely lose his job. Plus - Keith! If V is 17, better to just date and get to know one another and just wait. She'll be 18 soon enough. I think V would want to take it slow anyhow, and if Leo is the good guy I hope he is, he would be willing to do that. <snip> i find the clear distinction drawn between dating and sex to be an interesting one. in positions of power -- like teacher -- it doesn't seem that most people draw the line that way in the u.s. , but outside of those types of situations it seems pretty common, at least on this board .
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Post by artemis on Feb 17, 2005 11:40:00 GMT -5
Oh, Carrie was still evil in general tendencies, but was acting on the part of good because it was someone that she cared about that got screwed. Rather literally. this is possibly my favorite thing about this show -- that characters aren't placed into neat little cubbyholes like they are so often on television. veronica learns from her mistakes, like many have mentioned in this thread and others, but so does everyone else, including the so-called minor characters. it seems so realistic to me to have *everyone* be complicated in character.
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 17, 2005 12:07:27 GMT -5
i find the clear distinction drawn between dating and sex to be an interesting one. in positions of power -- like teacher -- it doesn't seem that most people draw the line that way in the u.s. , but outside of those types of situations it seems pretty common, at least on this board . I personally don't think there is a huge distinction . . . a teacher shouldn't date his students, shouldn't have any kind of sexual relationship with students. I agree that many school or workplace policies are the same, and I am in agreement with that. But the law does make a distinction (I think, in most states). You're not going to get arrested for taking a 17 yr old out to dinner and a movie and engaging in a little kissing, but you can get arrested if sexual intercourse is involved. The deputy being a law man, I think he needs to be particularly careful about the limits of the law. Leo doesn't have any kind of work or teacher or supervisory relationship with Veronica - so dating (or sex) I don't see as a "power" issue. Except for the legal/minor thing, it has to be OK for him to date/have sex with people he is sworn to protect, since that includes everyone in Neptune (I almost wrote "Sunnydale!").
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Post by William the Bloody on Feb 18, 2005 1:24:36 GMT -5
Let me clarify my original position. Vlad and Spring: based on what you've said, does this mean you'd be cool with Xander taking it slow with, say, Dawn in Season 7 if they started dating? The age difference is virtually the same. Yes, I would be cool with Xander taking it slow with Dawnie. Xander is what? 22? 23 at most at the end of BtVS... Dawn is 17 going on 18. Him finding Dawn attractive is a no brainer. Personally, I don't see it happening for the two of them for lots of other reasons, but the actual age thing... I would have some misgivings but not think it horrible. Specifically for those two, I think they are in much different places emotionally, however. Dawn is not a mature 17 year old and Xander, by the end, is an adult man. I would question him finding her attractive to him in any way other than perhaps physically. Actually, in America it is quite a varied line ranging from 14 in W. Virginia to 18 in in several states, with the norm being either 16 (here in Indiana) 17, or 18(California, from what I recall from the Buffy/Angel controversy) And I agree completely on the case by case bassis. In my family, my mother was 17 by a couple months when she married my father at 19, soon to turn 20. Her father refused to sign for her to be married, and only did so under the misbelief that she was pregnant (his own inferance, no-one lied to him) My mother wasn't and had her first child almost exactly a year later to the day. They were married happily from that point for the next 40 years, had three children from 1951-1968, and the only reason they "aren't together" now is that my father passed away in 1990. My mother has since never dated nor has any interest whatsoever in finding another spouse. She loved him completely and totally and to the best of my knowledge, he felt the same about her. On my father's side, his father married my grandmother when she was 15. Grandpa was 6 years older. (And no, she wasn;t in the family way!) They were married until he passed away in 1987 and at that point had been married for well over 50 years. She passed away roughly a year later. Officially it was complications of diabetes... personally, I felt like she didn't want to be alone anymore. They were a monogamous loving couple, and my grandmother privately mentioned that they had sex the night prior to him passing away in his sleep from a stroke at the age of 81. So perhaps, from my own family experiences in a fairly normal loving clan, age differences in spouses and people marrying young don't seem squicky, ooky or disturbing at all. I think at first she would be naturally possessive and guarded over ANYONE dating her Dawnie... but I think it wouldn't take much more than some heartfelt discussion and Xander being honest with Buffy about his intentions for her to allow it, if perhaps a little grudgingly. And personally, I am okay with it. As I said before, Veronica is way more mature than her years and I feel that Leo is somewhat typical for a young man of 21... In fact, if anything, I feel that Veronica would probably outgrow him in a year or two... assuming he doesn't grow himself. And that's okay. It's a part of this day and age and growing up. At least Leo is mature enough to have a real job at 21, and it's not THAT easy to become a cop, even in Neptune. He has some potential. Vlad
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wykbbb
Junior S'cubie
Posts: 18
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Post by wykbbb on Feb 18, 2005 7:01:14 GMT -5
Inspired by Veronica's clever ploy of writing "Veronica Mars is smarter than me" on the bills in Clash of the Tritons, a few fans at Televisions Without Pity thought it would be fun to design a Veronica Mars themed two dollar bill to ask for a second season. So far there are two bill designs, here and here. Just write "Veronica Mars is smarter than me" on the bills and send them to UPN. You might also include your gender, general age range, and location to show UPN that Veronica Mars has a very diverse fan base. You can read more about this campaign at the TWoP board. Here's the addresses for the top UPN executives and the UPN affiliates. A publicist who works for Warner Brothers (the studio that produces VM) recently contacted me and she said she loves this fake money campaign. She said we should send the bills to Dawn Ostroff (head of UPN) and Leslie Moonves (head of CBS and Ms. Ostroff's boss). The reason we are starting this "renew our show" campaign now, instead of waiting until after the show is canceled to start a "save our show/move Veronica Mars to another network" campaign is because it is so much easier to persuade someone to do something that they want to do, than it is to convince someone to reverse a decision that they have already made. Dawn Ostroff (UPN's president) has been very supportive of the show so I think it's safe to say she would love to renew the show. For those of you who don't keep up with the ratings, Veronica Mars has finished dead last in it's timeslot almost every single week since it premiered. If it wasn't for the huge amount of critical acclaim, the show would have been canceled months ago. While Dawn Ostroff has shown tremendous patience, faith, and support for the show, there has been no word yet on whether or not this ratings challenged show will be picked up for a second season. If you want the show to return next season, follow Kristen Bell's advice: "Our audience is climbing, people are telling their friends, so, please, guys, keep telling your friends!"
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Post by Sue on Feb 18, 2005 10:16:26 GMT -5
Inspired by Veronica's clever ploy of writing "Veronica Mars is smarter than me" on the bills in Clash of the Tritons, a few fans at Televisions Without Pity thought it would be fun to design a Veronica Mars themed two dollar bill to ask for a second season. So far there are two bill designs, here and here. Just write "Veronica Mars is smarter than me" on the bills and send them to UPN. You might also include your gender, general age range, and location to show UPN that Veronica Mars has a very diverse fan base. You can read more about this campaign at the TWoP board. Here's the addresses for the top UPN executives and the UPN affiliates. A publicist who works for Warner Brothers (the studio that produces VM) recently contacted me and she said she loves this fake money campaign. She said we should send the bills to Dawn Ostroff (head of UPN) and Leslie Moonves (head of CBS and Ms. Ostroff's boss). The reason we are starting this "renew our show" campaign now, instead of waiting until after the show is canceled to start a "save our show/move Veronica Mars to another network" campaign is because it is so much easier to persuade someone to do something that they want to do, than it is to convince someone to reverse a decision that they have already made. Dawn Ostroff (UPN's president) has been very supportive of the show so I think it's safe to say she would love to renew the show. For those of you who don't keep up with the ratings, Veronica Mars has finished dead last in it's timeslot almost every single week since it premiered. If it wasn't for the huge amount of critical acclaim, the show would have been canceled months ago. While Dawn Ostroff has shown tremendous patience, faith, and support for the show, there has been no word yet on whether or not this ratings challenged show will be picked up for a second season. If you want the show to return next season, follow Kristen Bell's advice: "Our audience is climbing, people are telling their friends, so, please, guys, keep telling your friends!" Thanks for the motivation, ideas and addresses. BTW: $2 bills are not (necessarily) fake. They are legal tender--I always ask for them at the bank and take whatever they have in. They are great to stick in birthday cards. I'd send a real one--with a note that once a good amount of cash is collected UPN take it to the VM cast and then make a donation in their names to whatever charity they choose---more good publicity for the fans and the show. [P.S. Leslie Moovnes is pretty much Bucknell University's (my alma mater) most famous grad, along with Edward Herrmann of Gilmore Girls.] I wish they would have kept up with the repeats on MTV--so many people I talk to don't get UPN.
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