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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 21, 2005 23:21:01 GMT -5
By the way, Weevil is such a gentleman. I hope we get more Weevil--though I do love the interaction with Logan. We don't have that library table for everyone to sit around, so we don't get full interaction with every character each show. Bluesman, loved this comment especially though all you had to say was very kewl. I miss that library table!
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Post by Pixi on Feb 22, 2005 13:08:49 GMT -5
Insightful review Sue! I always enoy your and Spring's reviews. This one in particularl delved below the surface of Mars v. Mars to shed light on more shadowy areas of our lovely Veronica Mars' soul. Her moral lapses--and we must so characterize them--are troubling. Veronica will pay a price for these lapses. I also find it interesting that her lapses are not directed merely at 09'ers. She eavesdropped on Weevil's grief session. She lies to her father, goes behind his back, investigates the lady with whom he chose to spend time. And Veronica, such a private, shuttered young lady, you know an invasion of her privacy would sting her like poison ivy. The murder of Lilly Kane is Veronica's focus. But I think the rape is what actually changed flashback-Veronica into the girl we now love and mourn. Pre-rape, Veronica's former cliche had cut her off. But she still pursued them in one fashion or another, i.e., attending the 09'er party. She still wore her hair long and dressed in white, a picture of innocence. Post rape, Veronica cut them off. She went after them like an avenging angel. Does a greater invasion of privacy exist than rape? This event tore loose the tethers than anchored Veronica's moral grounding. They shattered her faith in justice, the law, rules. Lately, we see Veronica's behavior grows riskier, careless even. Flashing Carrie's school record where Logan asks if it's interesting reading, reading Duncan's medical record when Duncan is in the room, opening herself up to Leo, going to Rooks' home, challenging Koonz. Veronica is wound very tightly at the moment. I see this as intentional on the part of the writer's. Turning back to the way Veronica pursues truth at all cost. Woodward and Bernstein represesnts such apt symbolism for Veronioca. The early 70s is when American had its own faith shattered by the Watergate scandal and Vietnam. We all lost faith in authority. And Woodward and Berstein were the truth seekers who went after Nixon and brought him down regardless of cost. In Benigna Machiavelli, Charlotte Perkins Gilman (of The Yellow Wallpaper fame) speaks of the good villain, and in Vernonica Mars we have what she asked for and what so rarely you find in literature. I think next season (please God), we will see Veronica forced to grow. What decisions will she make if she is no longer chasing Lilly's murderer. Will she make amends? Will she continue to ignore the bounds of decency in the pursuit of truth. I don't know, but I look forward to seeing all the characters develop further. I also look forward to seeing how Veronica's view of the 09'ers alters especially after she learns the truth behind her rape. Because I think Veronica in her heart blames Duncan and Logan for the rape--I don't mean she believes they raped her, but they failed to prevent it. They withdrew their protection and monsters fell upon her and devoured her soul. It may not be logical. It may not reflect reality. But Veronica can never have a relationship with any 09'er (Logan or Duncan in particular) until she acknowledges her anger at them for the rape and forgives them. Until then, she will always look outside the 09'er circle for friendship as in Troy (bad choice), Wallace (good choice), and Leo (?). Our Veronica is in so much pain. Very insightful comments. I certainly didn't make the correlation between the wearing of the white before the rape and the change. I enjoyed reading this.
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Post by Pixi on Feb 22, 2005 13:11:40 GMT -5
Yes, those are my favorite scenes also. I really love the actor who plays her dad, even if I haven't learned his name yet - and even if I still see him as an alien asking Tim Alan for help... Echoing the Enrico love - "Never give up, never surrender". I adore Galaxy Quest.
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Post by Pixi on Feb 22, 2005 13:24:46 GMT -5
Lastly - as I anticipate AH's appearance tonight and carefully check and recheck that I have the VCR programmed correctly, I have read Sue's review. Thanks for doing this - I love the reviews. It is what first brought me to this site. I would sit and read all the Buffy and Angel reviews thinking - wow these people are wonderful at discovering hidden themes and nuances that I would never think about.
I haven't anything new to add to the review or the previous comments. Loved all the comments and I too would like some more Weevil. And a library table. I thought Bluesman's review of the growth of Weevil was absolutely fantastic. His character while adding that bad boy/other side of the track element that every show seems to need also continues the tradition of showing that character is only the surface of much more.
Still, I am enthralled with the character of Logan and whether it's a true allusion or not, he has become the "Spike" character of the show to me. I want to know more of his story, he's not just a snarky badass, and I miss him when his character is not there. And, unlike Spike who enchanted from his first appearance in School Hard, I pretty much ignored or disliked Logan's character initially. I continue to give the writers and Jason Dohring huge props and kudos for the way they turned this around and changed my initial dislike to admiration.
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Post by Bluesman on Feb 22, 2005 15:27:47 GMT -5
Still, I am enthralled with the character of Logan.... Ditto. Jason Dohring's acting is superb. I'm riveted whenever he and Veronica are on the screen together. I won't say I'm a Veronica/Logan shipper at this point. I just want to see more screen time. Hell, they can snark back and forth at each other until serie's end and I'll enjoy it. I do see Leo as a placeholder relationship for Veronica. Next season, we'll see more development along relationship lines I suspect.
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Post by Sue on Feb 22, 2005 16:10:24 GMT -5
To: Matthew, Lola, artemis, Patti, Erin, Spring, Pixi, Bluesman, Vlad and Rae:
I'd just like to say that I love this thread and I love all of your comments. I'm so sorry that I just haven't wrestled time out of RL to answer more of them individually, BUT I have read every post on this thread. Even when I don't answer. And the comments and you guys (y'ins in Pittsburghese, or y'all in "southern") are maker the show an even richer experience for me.
Thanks so much.
Sue
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Post by Karen on Feb 22, 2005 16:48:21 GMT -5
To: Matthew, Lola, artemis, Patti, Erin, Spring, Pixi, Bluesman, Vlad and Rae: I'd just like to say that I love this thread and I love all of your comments. I'm so sorry that I just haven't wrestled time out of RL to answer more of them individually, BUT I have read every post on this thread. Even when I don't answer. And the comments and you guys (y'ins in Pittsburghese, or y'all in "southern") are maker the show an even richer experience for me. Thanks so much. Sue Ditto from me. Reading the reviews (which I finally had a chance to read yours, Sue - I loved it - more later), and everyone's comments adds so much to the enjoyment of the shows to me. I'm just sorry I don't have more time to actually join in on all of the discussions more. VM has been a delightful surprise to me - and thanks again Sue for encouraging us all to watch. *keeping fingers crossed for a next season* And we get to see AH tonight! *jumping up and down with excitement!!*
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Post by artemis on Feb 23, 2005 10:04:45 GMT -5
great post on weevil, bluesman.
artemis, catching up on this episode's posts.
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Post by artemis on Feb 23, 2005 10:09:02 GMT -5
<snip> Or did information about Abel's medical condition, whatever it is that he is dying from, come to the attention of the conspirator(s) BECAUSE Abel used this doctor, and, if so, is the doctor involved in this somehow? <snip> i wondered the exact same thing.
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Post by artemis on Feb 23, 2005 10:37:55 GMT -5
Ditto from me. Reading the reviews (which I finally had a chance to read yours, Sue - I loved it - more later), and everyone's comments adds so much to the enjoyment of the shows to me. <snip> me too. it's why i joined this board in the first place.
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Post by artemis on Feb 23, 2005 10:56:19 GMT -5
sue, i finally got a chance to read your review. insightful as always! about this part:
we've seen her share other things about the case with her dad, like the question of the shoes. i'm not sure that just because we haven't seen it, it means she hasn't shared. i can understand your wish that we HAD seen it depicted, though. i hope this is resolved one way or the other in the next few episodes -- either they talk about it in a way that makes clear he already knows, or she finally tells him (bringing up the question of veronica being dopey for love vs. being honest with the one person she has been consistently able to count on, again).
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Post by Lola m on Feb 23, 2005 17:56:03 GMT -5
Very good review, Sue!
Like many have mentioned, I loved how you point out that Mars Vs. Mars is more than just Veronica versus her dad. Yes, Keith and she have their different points of view here, but as you mention, I’m sure he doesn’t see this as a confrontation or fight. It’s really about Veronica and the lessons she is learning – from her dad, from her experiences, about herself, and so on.
Really saw another fine example of finding out the truth, even when painful in the episode following this one, didn’t we? As you point out, it really is one of the pre-eminent themes of this show – as is appropriate for both the type of show it is (detective) as well as fitting the show’s other themes. Hidden identities, the Lily murder arc, etc. Loved how you brought back Laura’s comment way back at the start of the meaning of V’s name. How true!
I was glad to see you point out that Carrie was actually telling the truth about Duncan as well. Easy to forget this in the rush of the rest of the plot and so on, but important. I too think it is one of Veronica’s best traits that she is able to admit she’s wrong and hopefully learn from the experience. Call me kooky (kooky!), but I would bet she gets this from the wonderful example of her dad. I think back to when he revisited the guidance counselor to apologize for being abrupt with her and asking for help with V. As you remind us, the story of the week is a way for us to learn more about Veronica’s world.
I was happy to see that you and some other posters think that Veronica once again stepped over the line when she looked at the medical records. I mean, yes, it does perhaps help get us closer to finding out what happened with Lily, but just like the eavesdropping on counseling sessions, it tells us something a bit disturbing about how far she will go. How Duncan’s epilepsy will fit into the story is still very much up in the air though, as far as I’m concerned.
I too thought it was a bit “convenient” for her to find Koontz’s records there as well. But I am now intrigued by the ideas in both Leftylady’s recent post. Is the Koontz and Kane connection through the doctor part of the whole plot? Treatment as part of the pay off. Or perhaps it is even that the timing is the other way around. Koontz’s illness and seeing this same doctor was part of what led someone to the idea of using him as the fall guy. Very interesting ideas.
More eetah’s from me on Jason D’s work. He is just blowing me away! Put the last few episodes together and . . . whoa!
Lola
More Weevil! More Wallace! More Duncan!
Cyanide and a false tooth. **giggle**
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Jul 31, 2006 19:13:11 GMT -5
Veronica's part of a team now.
leading causes of the fall of the roman empire
Kids are mean
different doctors for the rich
So two overeager gossips
You're so naive.
Reputations: parallel to Veronica
So Veronica just took this as gossip before, but now not so much.
GAH!!!
Ex-wife. and daughter.
Fired from previous school
And I don't want you seeing Kid Rock. Hee.
So this is a different informant.
Delta Blue Bombers.
Persuit of Happiness
So, this is a kook.
BWAH HAH HAH!! That was awesome, Keith.
So you got a trophy for a rimjob. Hee.
Weevil as Veronica's deepthroat.
He's stalling for time to come up with an explanation.
Eh, this may be going too far, Veronica.
Is this the school auditorium? Damn!
Interesting reaction shots from the teacher.
SK
Black sheets and McJagger
oxcarbazapine
Type IV epilepsy
Duncan's not nearly on Veronica's level.
extemporaneous speaking competition.
Bravery
Colored perceptions
war movie
Damn!!
Weevil the camp counselor
Walk of Shame, Dead Poets Society style.
Abel's dying
Abel was seeing the rich persons doctor too
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