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Post by artemis on Feb 19, 2005 13:37:51 GMT -5
<snip> For those of you who don't keep up with the ratings, Veronica Mars has finished dead last in it's timeslot almost every single week since it premiered. If it wasn't for the huge amount of critical acclaim, the show would have been canceled months ago. <snip> i like the campaign idea too. i wanted to note in response to the bit above, though, that i'm not personally sure that VM would have been cancelled months ago if not for the critics. most of UPN's shows finish last in their time slot, so it's not like VM is unusual in this regard.
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Post by artemis on Feb 19, 2005 13:45:37 GMT -5
<snip> I wish they would have kept up with the repeats on MTV--so many people I talk to don't get UPN. yes, i know people like that too, and also ones who tape another show at the same time slot, and used to watch VM on MTV since it was on at a time where they didn't watch anything else.
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Post by Sue on Feb 20, 2005 2:08:30 GMT -5
With enoumous apolgies and excuses out the wazoo---the review has now been sent off to Patti and Vlad.
(And I need someone to borrow Sara's Louisville and go beat on the folks in the Princeton admissions dept who have apparently lost Allie's application (part 2--the part with all the essays, etc.) and send her a letter 3 months later saying, "Your application is incomplete."
They claim it will be considered as soon as she gets it all there (no penalty)--given that things can get lost in the mail, etc. but they will be receiving not on another copy of Part 2, but photocopies of:
1. The UPS receipt with delivery confirmation saying it was delivered Nov. 30
2. The postcard PU sent us on Dec 10 saying it had been received
3. the check which was deposited on Dec. 20---funny how the check was there, but the application is not.
Arrrgggghhhh.
And due to the holiday not much we can do until Tuesday--even via overnite mail. Very stress-making.
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Post by Bluesman on Feb 20, 2005 9:30:04 GMT -5
And due to the holiday not much we can do until Tuesday--even via overnite mail. Very stress-making. This has turned into one of those holidays for a lot of people. One reason, I spent Thursday night up until 3:00 a.m. was the knowledge that Monday was blown. Best wishes on Allie's application to Princeton, such an exciting, stressful time of life. I remember going through that myself for graduate school. And now turning to our on-topic subject matter, On this episode, I continued to be struck by Weevil's growing relationship with Veronica. When Weevil first entered the scene, he and Veronica engaged in a little sexual repartee. They continued in that same vein in their second meeting, ala "Weevil love you long time." The third meeting he was still treating Veronica to a little sexual banter . . . "I'll give you the full body treatment." But you could see the growing respect he had for her. Then we move on to episode two. He comes outside and finds Veronica admiring his big old hog. And you know he's hurt. He lashes out at her rather cruely, you're just one of them and he means it in a negative context--damn those 09'ers. By the time we get to the Christmas episode, their relationship has evolved into something special. I mean who didn't love the "head tilt" comment. But what really struck me, when Veronica entered the poker room, she set her bag down. Weevil is up, "let me get that for you," taking her bag and asking, "You want a sodapop." It highlighted one of the points of that episode, Weevil has more class than most of the rich kids despite being across the tracks. But it also just made me go wow, Weevil has turned into such a gentleman. But you can see how he's treating Veronica like a lady these days, with respect. He's gotten to know her and has thrown out all the crap he's heard about Veronica in the past. When they are standing inside the adult party area and Weevil's playing his cute "Where's Weevil," Veronica off handedly comments as to how she doesn't belong either. Weevil immediately disabuses her of that notion. This latest episode, we have Veronica playing up the sexual innuendo with Weevil the way she did in the beginning, but Weevil doesn't pick it up at all. It seems Weevil's view of Veronica has grown and matured. But I think Veronica still sees him in the same light as when they first met. I'm not saying she hasn't developed a strong friendship with Weevil, but she hasn't altered her initial view of who Weevil is really. By the way, Weevil is such a gentleman. I hope we get more Weevil--though I do love the interaction with Logan. We don't have that library table for everyone to sit around, so we don't get full interaction with every character each show.
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Post by Sue on Feb 20, 2005 12:26:29 GMT -5
This has turned into one of those holidays for a lot of people. One reason, I spent Thursday night up until 3:00 a.m. was the knowledge that Monday was blown. Best wishes on Allie's application to Princeton, such an exciting, stressful time of life. I remember going through that myself for graduate school. And now turning to our on-topic subject matter, On this episode, I continued to be struck by Weevil's growing relationship with Veronica. When Weevil first entered the scene, he and Veronica engaged in a little sexual repartee. They continued in that same vein in their second meeting, ala "Weevil love you long time." The third meeting he was still treating Veronica to a little sexual banter . . . "I'll give you the full body treatment." But you could see the growing respect he had for her. Then we move on to episode two. He comes outside and finds Veronica admiring his big old hog. And you know he's hurt. He lashes out at her rather cruely, you're just one of them and he means it in a negative context--damn those 09'ers. By the time we get to the Christmas episode, their relationship has evolved into something special. I mean who didn't love the "head tilt" comment. But what really struck me, when Veronica entered the poker room, she set her bag down. Weevil is up, "let me get that for you," taking her bag and asking, "You want a sodapop." It highlighted one of the points of that episode, Weevil has more class than most of the rich kids despite being across the tracks. But it also just made me go wow, Weevil has turned into such a gentleman. But you can see how he's treating Veronica like a lady these days, with respect. He's gotten to know her and has thrown out all the crap he's heard about Veronica in the past. When they are standing inside the adult party area and Weevil's playing his cute "Where's Weevil," Veronica off handedly comments as to how she doesn't belong either. Weevil immediately disabuses her of that notion. This latest episode, we have Veronica playing up the sexual innuendo with Weevil the way she did in the beginning, but Weevil doesn't pick it up at all. It seems Weevil's view of Veronica has grown and matured. But I think Veronica still sees him in the same light as when they first met. I'm not saying she hasn't developed a strong friendship with Weevil, but she hasn't altered her initial view of who Weevil is really.
By the way, Weevil is such a gentleman. I hope we get more Weevil--though I do love the interaction with Logan. We don't have that library table for everyone to sit around, so we don't get full interaction with every character each show.I love the fact that you are tracing the relationship's growth back thru all of the episodes. I like to do that. This was one of the frustrating things doing this review--that I didn't take the time to do so. We have often commented on how Angel, Buffy, any and all of the charact ers seem to have to keep learning the same lessons over and over again. I'm seeing this with Veronica as well: She'll start out with an emotional reaction/stance to a person or situation but eventually have to let go of her initial impressions once the facts (truth) rears is often not so pretty head. I know Spring has commented more than once about how Veronica at first will only see what she wants to see. The great thing about her is that she is willing to change her viewpoint as more information becomes available. This facet of being human seems to be a shared POV of Joss and Rob Thomas: We just don't learn our lessons with only one repetition--we have to build on our experiences and sometimes get knocked up side the head over and over and over before something sinks in. (Think of training a puppy or a baby.....or a teenager!) To get back to your specific observations about Weevil. Very astute. He's viewing Veronica in a new light, but she hasn't yet grown in her view of him! Which is one reason I say we need more Weevil [in the review]--and season two to give time to develop more of the characters more fully. Ditto for Wallace. There's a lot of potential in Wallace. I think that given enough time RT will flesh out Weevil, Duncan (hopefully Trish) much as he has done with Veronica, Logan and Keith. I also hope he continues to repeat peripheral characters ala Buffy's Jonathan, Principal Snyder, Larry, Harmony. He's done that a little with Mac and Deputy Leo and Cliff the lawyer. I'd love to (over time of course--these things can't be rushed) more of Olga, Ms. Fenell, and some others.) And: yes, yes, yes to the library and research sessions around the table. Really not trying to turn VM into "Buffy" but maybe 4 or 5 seasons down the road couldn't you see them all hanging out at the Mars detective agency.... [Finally---hang around long enough and you'll learn more than you want to know about all 3 of my kids--but I do try usually to keep it on the Main Thread. In this case, tho, it was a large part of what distracted me from completing the review sooner--and 1 am is VERY late for me--so not thinking so clearly.]
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Post by Lola m on Feb 20, 2005 21:36:22 GMT -5
This has turned into one of those holidays for a lot of people. One reason, I spent Thursday night up until 3:00 a.m. was the knowledge that Monday was blown. Best wishes on Allie's application to Princeton, such an exciting, stressful time of life. I remember going through that myself for graduate school. And now turning to our on-topic subject matter, On this episode, I continued to be struck by Weevil's growing relationship with Veronica. When Weevil first entered the scene, he and Veronica engaged in a little sexual repartee. They continued in that same vein in their second meeting, ala "Weevil love you long time." The third meeting he was still treating Veronica to a little sexual banter . . . "I'll give you the full body treatment." But you could see the growing respect he had for her. Then we move on to episode two. He comes outside and finds Veronica admiring his big old hog. And you know he's hurt. He lashes out at her rather cruely, you're just one of them and he means it in a negative context--damn those 09'ers. By the time we get to the Christmas episode, their relationship has evolved into something special. I mean who didn't love the "head tilt" comment. But what really struck me, when Veronica entered the poker room, she set her bag down. Weevil is up, "let me get that for you," taking her bag and asking, "You want a sodapop." It highlighted one of the points of that episode, Weevil has more class than most of the rich kids despite being across the tracks. But it also just made me go wow, Weevil has turned into such a gentleman. But you can see how he's treating Veronica like a lady these days, with respect. He's gotten to know her and has thrown out all the crap he's heard about Veronica in the past. When they are standing inside the adult party area and Weevil's playing his cute "Where's Weevil," Veronica off handedly comments as to how she doesn't belong either. Weevil immediately disabuses her of that notion. This latest episode, we have Veronica playing up the sexual innuendo with Weevil the way she did in the beginning, but Weevil doesn't pick it up at all. It seems Weevil's view of Veronica has grown and matured. But I think Veronica still sees him in the same light as when they first met. I'm not saying she hasn't developed a strong friendship with Weevil, but she hasn't altered her initial view of who Weevil is really. By the way, Weevil is such a gentleman. I hope we get more Weevil--though I do love the interaction with Logan. We don't have that library table for everyone to sit around, so we don't get full interaction with every character each show. Adding to your post and Sue's: I think we see Veronica change her mind or her beliefs about someone when she is more straightforwardly confronted or presented with facts that really hit her with her own issues. She has a tendency to just leap in asking for what she needs, without thinking about what that means to the other person. For example, while she is becoming good friends with Wallace, she does still just assume he will always do whatever she asks, just because. Same with Weevil, although with more of an element of mutual back scratching. I think that so far, the one thing that has perhaps made her step out of her usual reaction to Weevil has been when she was listening to the conversations in the counselor's office. I was very glad to see her take the situation with Wallace and his mom's nasty tenant seriously. No joking, no trying to step in herself and do something, she went right to her dad. Like you and Sue and Spring and others have mentioned, I have been very impressed with the writing of Veronica's character. We see her make mistakes, learn from them, stumble again, etc. But I wish we could have more Weevil-time, too. Lola
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Post by Linda on Feb 21, 2005 9:05:02 GMT -5
" 'Sode " perhaps? Seriously, I think that "fit" is not considered derogatory, as I believe that the term "fit" to describe an emotional outburst derives from comparing such to an epileptic fit. "Seizure" would work, too. I think that "event" or "episode" would also be acceptable, though I'd shy away from the alliteration, myself. Well, gee, thanks Matthew. Now I have this scene in my head where Dad Kane's knocking on Duncan's door asking: "When's the last time you had an orgasm, son?" Linda, Wonderfalls on the brain...
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Post by Linda on Feb 21, 2005 9:41:12 GMT -5
With enoumous apolgies and excuses out the wazoo---the review has now been sent off to Patti and Vlad. (And I need someone to borrow Sara's Louisville and go beat on the folks in the Princeton admissions dept who have apparently lost Allie's application (part 2--the part with all the essays, etc.) and send her a letter 3 months later saying, "Your application is incomplete." They claim it will be considered as soon as she gets it all there (no penalty)--given that things can get lost in the mail, etc. but they will be receiving not on another copy of Part 2, but photocopies of: 1. The UPS receipt with delivery confirmation saying it was delivered Nov. 30 2. The postcard PU sent us on Dec 10 saying it had been received 3. the check which was deposited on Dec. 20---funny how the check was there, but the application is not. Arrrgggghhhh. And due to the holiday not much we can do until Tuesday--even via overnite mail. Very stress-making. For you, Sue: Best of luck on sorting out the stress-making situation! And no apologies necessary about your review! It was worth the wait! I especially loved your pointing out that the true Mars vs. Mars was between Veronica and herself. Thank you for all the insight. I don't have much else to add, since I've missed more than half of the episodes. However: Eeetah about your observations on Veronica's lack of respect for privacy. And the observation that she committed a felony when she stole confidential records. In your opinion, will such felonious behavior be a significant factor in how things will eventually play out? In one of the few other episodes that I saw (the Pilot ep., I think), Veronica actually tampered with evidence to get Weevil's boys acquitted. I thought this was somewhat disturbing in light of her father's former position of upholding the law. Have there been repercussions? Will this type of wrong-doing be addressed, do you think? Is it possible that this season is all about seeking the truth and perhaps next season will be about seeking justice? In which case, IMO, flawed methods will bring about flawed results, regardless of the truth. Just wondering out loud. Linda, oh, and Eeetah about Jason Dohring's Logan, too.
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Post by Bluesman on Feb 21, 2005 12:41:16 GMT -5
Insightful review Sue! I always enoy your and Spring's reviews. This one in particularl delved below the surface of Mars v. Mars to shed light on more shadowy areas of our lovely Veronica Mars' soul.
Her moral lapses--and we must so characterize them--are troubling. Veronica will pay a price for these lapses. I also find it interesting that her lapses are not directed merely at 09'ers. She eavesdropped on Weevil's grief session. She lies to her father, goes behind his back, investigates the lady with whom he chose to spend time.
And Veronica, such a private, shuttered young lady, you know an invasion of her privacy would sting her like poison ivy. The murder of Lilly Kane is Veronica's focus. But I think the rape is what actually changed flashback-Veronica into the girl we now love and mourn.
Pre-rape, Veronica's former cliche had cut her off. But she still pursued them in one fashion or another, i.e., attending the 09'er party. She still wore her hair long and dressed in white, a picture of innocence. Post rape, Veronica cut them off. She went after them like an avenging angel.
Does a greater invasion of privacy exist than rape? This event tore loose the tethers than anchored Veronica's moral grounding. They shattered her faith in justice, the law, rules.
Lately, we see Veronica's behavior grows riskier, careless even. Flashing Carrie's school record where Logan asks if it's interesting reading, reading Duncan's medical record when Duncan is in the room, opening herself up to Leo, going to Rooks' home, challenging Koonz. Veronica is wound very tightly at the moment. I see this as intentional on the part of the writer's.
Turning back to the way Veronica pursues truth at all cost. Woodward and Bernstein represesnts such apt symbolism for Veronioca. The early 70s is when American had its own faith shattered by the Watergate scandal and Vietnam. We all lost faith in authority. And Woodward and Berstein were the truth seekers who went after Nixon and brought him down regardless of cost.
In Benigna Machiavelli, Charlotte Perkins Gilman (of The Yellow Wallpaper fame) speaks of the good villain, and in Vernonica Mars we have what she asked for and what so rarely you find in literature. I think next season (please God), we will see Veronica forced to grow. What decisions will she make if she is no longer chasing Lilly's murderer. Will she make amends? Will she continue to ignore the bounds of decency in the pursuit of truth.
I don't know, but I look forward to seeing all the characters develop further. I also look forward to seeing how Veronica's view of the 09'ers alters especially after she learns the truth behind her rape. Because I think Veronica in her heart blames Duncan and Logan for the rape--I don't mean she believes they raped her, but they failed to prevent it. They withdrew their protection and monsters fell upon her and devoured her soul.
It may not be logical. It may not reflect reality. But Veronica can never have a relationship with any 09'er (Logan or Duncan in particular) until she acknowledges her anger at them for the rape and forgives them. Until then, she will always look outside the 09'er circle for friendship as in Troy (bad choice), Wallace (good choice), and Leo (?).
Our Veronica is in so much pain.
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Post by leftylady on Feb 21, 2005 18:55:31 GMT -5
Some drive-by thoughts after the weekend:
What a coincidence that Abel and Duncan go to the same doctor!
Hmmm....
Under the supposition that someone in the Kane family (or possibly the Kane company security chief) is involved in Lily's death and cover-up, did someone pay Abel's medical bills to go to this doctor as part of the deal and therefore the records just happen to be there for Veronica to find? Or did information about Abel's medical condition, whatever it is that he is dying from, come to the attention of the conspirator(s) BECAUSE Abel used this doctor, and, if so, is the doctor involved in this somehow?
Glad we're getting more Logan. He's becoming a very interesting, complex character. More Weevil is good too, adds to the spice. But we need more Duncan also, or else we won't care about him and the breakup with Veronica, the possibility of his connection with Lily's death or much of anything also going on with the Kanes. More Duncan, please!
And we haven't seen Jake & Duncan's mother since the Echol's Xmas party have we? We've taken a detour into the mystery of Logan's family. A delaying tactic to drag out the Lily's death arc?
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Post by SpringSummers on Feb 21, 2005 19:23:48 GMT -5
Nice work on the review, Sue.
On this quote: "Veronica sees Dad as the "opposition" but Keith is always and totally on Veronica's side: "I encourage you to stand up for your convictions but I don't want you hurt by the truth when it comes out." (Foretelling much?)" I'm with you all the way. We keep getting the message in various ways that when the truth comes out, it is really going to hurt.
Also, on this: "In a rare 'isn't that convenient' moment Veronica hits the jackpot while stealing Duncan's files and discovers that Abel is terminally ill." I really didn't see the moment as artificially "convenient." Neptune is a small town. It is not so hard to believe that Duncan and Abel went to the same doctor. And their last names both begin with "K." So there is Abel's file, not far from Duncan's.
I don't know what to think about Lynn, but I hope they don't stretch that out too much - I hope she either shows up soon, or her body does. I can understand Logan's contention that Lynn would go for Chardonay and pills, but . . . I can also easily believe that someone distraught enough to kill herself might not have had the foresight to imagine her bloated body caught in a fishing net.
I saw a promo clip with Alyson . . . I am really anxious to see tomorrow's ep!!
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 21, 2005 23:01:41 GMT -5
Sue, this was an excellent review, well worth the wait! Your approach was very clear and logical - why should I be surprised, oh math wizard! ;D
I liked your reminder of what Veronica's name means - I don't remember catching that in the early episode - of course I was alll 'poo poo - Veronica Mars!' then...
Also, very nice - "In fact, getting at the truth is one of the pre-eminent themes of Veronica Mars--even when it hurts, when it is hard, or when it proves her wrong, Veronica seeks out the truth." and pointing out that Veronica, though world weary in so many ways, can also still be naive.
I shared the same 'huh?' with you when Veronica blurted out the 'shoe' information to Leo. If we are to assume she's told her dad that, we should have been clued in, and if she hadn't, why in the world tell Leo? He's just a deputy..
Also...big on the Logan love here, but needing more Weevil scenes. I know the producers must be enjoying writing for the Logan character, just as the Joss team enjoyed writing for Spike - but Weevil has a lot of potential too...I don't want him relegated to the background.
Tomorrow - new episode?
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 21, 2005 23:07:31 GMT -5
Let me clarify my original position. Vlad and Spring: based on what you've said, does this mean you'd be cool with Xander taking it slow with, say, Dawn in Season 7 if they started dating? The age difference is virtually the same. Putting the legal issues aside, I'm generally ok with the chronology in both cases; four or five years is less than nothing, really. I'm simply saying such things should be taken on a case by case basis depending on the individuals involved. A legal line has to be drawn somewhere, though...and generally speaking in America that's 18 years of age. In the case of Xander and Dawn I'd be more than ok with it, especially if I were Buffy. In this case, however, we know precisely jack about Leo other than he's a sweet-natured deputy who plays in a band. That leaves me on the fence between ok and ooky. The jury is, and for while should remain, out. So there. how do we know Leo is 20? He's just a deputy- he could be 19 couldn't he? I have the feeling they are about the same emotional age, maybe he's even a little younger than she is emotionally. I get no ick factor at all - I like the coupling, especially if she and Duncan are never going to get back together.
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 21, 2005 23:11:18 GMT -5
" 'Sode " perhaps? Seriously, I think that "fit" is not considered derogatory, as I believe that the term "fit" to describe an emotional outburst derives from comparing such to an epileptic fit. "Seizure" would work, too. I think that "event" or "episode" would also be acceptable, though I'd shy away from the alliteration, myself. The scene where Giles says to Maggie "Of course. How wrong of me to choose my own words.'" comes to my mind for some reason...
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Feb 21, 2005 23:13:41 GMT -5
I liked how they put a twist on a story that would be old hat either way it turned out - if he'd done it or not done it. Veronica and her dad are some of my favorite bits. The "on my side" lines. When she kind of jabbed him with didn't it seem familiar when no one believed you. Just even simple little moments when he is cooking or something are so nice. And I like how they have their differences, they fight and don't always agree, but you can see that they always still love each other. And they usually find a way back to an understanding at the end. They're not perfect, which is . . . well, a good thing. Lola Yes, those are my favorite scenes also. I really love the actor who plays her dad, even if I haven't learned his name yet - and even if I still see him as an alien asking Tim Alan for help...
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