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Post by Lola m on Nov 27, 2005 20:26:55 GMT -5
Hey everyone! I've been abit MIA all week, but I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving! I've been wanting to post my reactions of 2x08 much earlier, but between the holiday and meeting with family and friends, here it is Saturday night and I'm just now jumping into discussion. Oh well... So I admit, I finished this ep and I was so damn confused my head was spinning in full–on Exorcist form. The Logan kidnapping, Weevil/Logan phone call, the Meg dreams and then the letter. I seriously thought RT created this ep just to fuck with our minds. LOGAN's KIDNAPPING SEQUENCE Not able to form any reaction except, ‘huh?’ I went to read other posts to see if others made more sense out of it. And DAMN. I’m a friggin’ idiot! I must have watched that whole sequence from the Logan kidnapping to the cell phone call like four times to try to make sense out of it. And not once did I see the phone snatching! How the hell did I miss that? My mind jumped straight to ‘Weevil’s in cahoots with Logan’? ‘Logan knew that was gonna happen? But that makes no sense. Logan’s clearly mad. Full out mental.’ So clearly, by missing that move, I got completely lost. Going back and rewatching, it makes SO much sense now. Can't get over how amazingly well JD sold the whole scene. I was just about dying watching it. When the obligatory pyschotic jackass gets that damn scared, darn tootin' I get scared too. There was a second there where I actually was fearful of how far RT would go. Would he really let Logan get his hand blown off? I was quite scared to go on, because I'm a freak like that. I loved the little moment when he grabbed the phone - but it was very subtle. And without that moment it certainly could be read a lot of ways. I wonder if there was no bullet in the gun at all? That way, they'd be sure of no accidental shots and, frankly, if they decided they wanted to kill him they could always put a bullet in then. Even more than having the gun, I was freaked about how he got it. I mean, Dick Sr?! WTF?! **nods** And you can see her growing realization that she is in over her head. As she walks around the back with the guy and she sees the tied up dog, etc. But she can't / won't back out. Definitely made me 1) start being suspicious of Hector and Bootsie and 2) think back to the various scenes last year as Veronica was imagining the different ways Lilly's murder could have happened. Duncan is waaaaay messed up. And it really took me being able to, as you say, see inside his head to understand just how messed up he is. See, this is what I think too!!! I mean, it's important - all the stories and mysteries about the kids on the bus. I mean we have Meg, and we've learned more about her family issues. And now we learned about Marcos and this was paired with a storyline that brought us back to the issues within Weevil's gang and their rivals the Fitz-guys. Makes me think things like, what did Marcos know? ;D
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Post by Lola m on Nov 27, 2005 20:30:52 GMT -5
What is THIS all about? I don't watch the promos and I don't want to know what was in them specifically, but a gimmick ending? I heard people say something about the fans picking the ending they want. And to that I say, WHA?!?! Please tell me this is not true. I hope it isn't the start of UPN sticking their noses into the plot / show direction. Blatant Sweeps gimmicks leave me cold. p.s. So many good posts with lots of insights, spotted motifs, etc. Can't wait to watch tonight when I get to tape the rerun to catch all this. I missed that Logan grabbed the goon's cell. I thought it was Logan checking back with co-conspiritor Weevil. But that would be too much to ask. I also hope that it's not really . . . attached to the show at all. In other words - just something they can tack on as a thing to do online if you want but actually meaningless as far as the story and so on.
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Post by Lola m on Nov 27, 2005 20:33:09 GMT -5
Ok, so the Oliveros's decided that the pranks were a perfect opportunity to frame the school district attorneys! What the hell is in that letter? Next week is gonna be COOL! I think Carlos genuinely believed it was the School District who was harassing him and Maria, so in his mind, what he did was OK (like Thumper lying about seeing Logan kill Felix - he believes it's true, so he's justified lying about seeing it). **nods nods nods** That's my take on it as well. And as you point out here, there are some nice parallels between the two story lines.
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Post by Rob on Nov 27, 2005 20:59:17 GMT -5
Oh, freakin GREAT. a gimmick ending coming up next week. Dammit. But hey, more Trina! I've been giving next week's ending (s) a good deal of thought. I doubt very much anyone is influencing the overall arc of the season, whether that be fans or network. I just don't see Thomas caving in that way. He (much like Joss in the past) seems to continually find a way around it...and thus far, that has gone pretty well, all things considered. The stunt castings (Paris Hilton, the Top Model contestants) have all been little more than walk-on roles, with little effect other than annoying hardcore fans a bit. If that's the price of delivering Thomas the autonomy he needs, I say bring in all the emaciated divas necessary. One other opinion, while I've got it rolling: I think the alternate endings are a brilliant move in two ways: 1. While it IS definitely a gimmick...that doesn't necessarily make it bad. A good gimmick can be a beautiful thing. I absolutely believe the audience has no influence on upcoming events. Episodes beyond this one have already completed production; they can't very well go back and re-shoot them depending on an online vote. I'll guarantee you one thing, though: millions will watch the "alternate" ending...which means the ploy worked perfectly. With a little luck, maybe it'll bring another casual viewer or three to UPN as well. 2. If you shoot two endings, it goes a long way toward making accurate spoilage difficult. Thomas has been more successful with regard to prevention of accurate set-leakage than any producer in recent memory; what better way to camouflage intentions than to ADVERTISE the alternate endings? It just stokes the fires of interest by gently tweaking the noses of those who can't resist the spoiler sites.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 27, 2005 21:28:03 GMT -5
Hey everyone! I've been abit MIA all week, but I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving! I've been wanting to post my reactions of 2x08 much earlier, but between the holiday and meeting with family and friends, here it is Saturday night and I'm just now jumping into discussion. Oh well... So I admit, I finished this ep and I was so damn confused my head was spinning in full–on Exorcist form. The Logan kidnapping, Weevil/Logan phone call, the Meg dreams and then the letter. I seriously thought RT created this ep just to fuck with our minds. LOGAN's KIDNAPPING SEQUENCE Not able to form any reaction except, ‘huh?’ I went to read other posts to see if others made more sense out of it. And DAMN. I’m a friggin’ idiot! I must have watched that whole sequence from the Logan kidnapping to the cell phone call like four times to try to make sense out of it. And not once did I see the phone snatching! How the hell did I miss that? My mind jumped straight to ‘Weevil’s in cahoots with Logan’? ‘Logan knew that was gonna happen? But that makes no sense. Logan’s clearly mad. Full out mental.’ So clearly, by missing that move, I got completely lost. Going back and rewatching, it makes SO much sense now. Can't get over how amazingly well JD sold the whole scene. I was just about dying watching it. When the obligatory pyschotic jackass gets that damn scared, darn tootin' I get scared too. There was a second there where I actually was fearful of how far RT would go. Would he really let Logan get his hand blown off? I was quite scared to go on, because I'm a freak like that. I loved the little moment when he grabbed the phone - but it was very subtle. And without that moment it certainly could be read a lot of ways. I wonder if there was no bullet in the gun at all? That way, they'd be sure of no accidental shots and, frankly, if they decided they wanted to kill him they could always put a bullet in then. I definitely think the gun was NOT loaded. Weevil was just scaring Logan; he wasn't actually going to have him shot. It's sort of foreshadowed in the comments earlier. Veronica tells Logan she'll whistle if she wants someone punched in the face - suggesting Logan is the type to punch others in the face. Logan later gets punched in the face. Logan pulls an unloaded gun on Liam to frighten him, later, Logan has the same done to him. There's a lot of "eye for an eye" stuff going on in the episode, so I think this was just another example of that. Remember when Dick took Logan out for target practice? I assume he let Logan have it then. True. But I think the dreams and making a move to try to help Megan are all good signs for Duncan. He's been almost totally introverted and incommunicative . . . he's starting to come out of that a bit. There was tons o' symmetry! Read my analysis, and see what you think! I just sent it to Vlad so it's not up yet, but it should be soon - probably tomorrow or so.
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Post by zimshan on Nov 27, 2005 22:43:42 GMT -5
I definitely think the gun was NOT loaded. Weevil was just scaring Logan; he wasn't actually going to have him shot. It's sort of foreshadowed in the comments earlier. Veronica tells Logan she'll whistle if she wants someone punched in the face - suggesting Logan is the type to punch others in the face. Logan later gets punched in the face. Logan pulls an unloaded gun on Liam to frighten him, later, Logan has the same done to him. There's a lot of "eye for an eye" stuff going on in the episode, so I think this was just another example of that. Oh, yes, I agree. Very 'eye for an eye'. They definitely almost bookended the ep with the Logan stuff. The River Styx in the beginning with the trial scene near the end. It balances things quite nicely... But talking about possible foreshadowing, even more fun if we go back to 2x06, when Logan said to Weevil something along the lines of 'if you held a gun up to my-'. Kind of got what he asked for there... More symmetry started popping out at me on second viewing and it was oh so delicious. Can't wait to read your review and see what you found!
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Post by Lola m on Nov 28, 2005 8:41:40 GMT -5
I loved the little moment when he grabbed the phone - but it was very subtle. And without that moment it certainly could be read a lot of ways. I wonder if there was no bullet in the gun at all? That way, they'd be sure of no accidental shots and, frankly, if they decided they wanted to kill him they could always put a bullet in then. I definitely think the gun was NOT loaded. Weevil was just scaring Logan; he wasn't actually going to have him shot. It's sort of foreshadowed in the comments earlier. Veronica tells Logan she'll whistle if she wants someone punched in the face - suggesting Logan is the type to punch others in the face. Logan later gets punched in the face. Logan pulls an unloaded gun on Liam to frighten him, later, Logan has the same done to him. There's a lot of "eye for an eye" stuff going on in the episode, so I think this was just another example of that. I hadn't thought about it that way - repeating what was said or done before. Cool! Oh, I think that it likely happened then or around then too. But the idea of this guy just giving a teenager a gun . . . here ya go, Logan, friend of my sons! Have a deadly weapon 'cuz I think that sounds like a good thing to do. Well, it means we at least know he's thinking about it. But I worry that he still shows no signs of moving that thought out into the world at all. He's still just . . . going along. Not talking to anyone - of course, I can see why he's thinking he can't talk to Veronica (although I think he's wrong), and I can see (a bit) why he might not talk to Logan (although I think he's wrong there too). But he needs to get that stuff out of his head and into reality. I agree about the Doc too. I think it was a sanction from his profession at large. Looking forward to the review!
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Post by Matthew on Nov 28, 2005 9:49:28 GMT -5
I definitely think the gun was NOT loaded. Weevil was just scaring Logan; he wasn't actually going to have him shot. It's sort of foreshadowed in the comments earlier. Veronica tells Logan she'll whistle if she wants someone punched in the face - suggesting Logan is the type to punch others in the face. Logan later gets punched in the face. Logan pulls an unloaded gun on Liam to frighten him, later, Logan has the same done to him. There's a lot of "eye for an eye" stuff going on in the episode, so I think this was just another example of that. I hadn't thought about it that way - repeating what was said or done before. Cool! Oh, I think that it likely happened then or around then too. But the idea of this guy just giving a teenager a gun . . . here ya go, Logan, friend of my sons! Have a deadly weapon 'cuz I think that sounds like a good thing to do. Well, it means we at least know he's thinking about it. But I worry that he still shows no signs of moving that thought out into the world at all. He's still just . . . going along. Not talking to anyone - of course, I can see why he's thinking he can't talk to Veronica (although I think he's wrong), and I can see (a bit) why he might not talk to Logan (although I think he's wrong there too). But he needs to get that stuff out of his head and into reality. There was tons o' symmetry! Read my analysis, and see what you think! I just sent it to Vlad so it's not up yet, but it should be soon - probably tomorrow or so. Huh.... I'm weird: I thought that was an actually nice gesture: indicated his concern for Logan's well-being in a town where he knew Logan had a lot of enemies. To me it was just a laginappe he tossed in on the fact that he appreciated that Logan was taking care of Kendall for him when he wasn't around (because I still think he knew everything about that:and was cheerfully accomodating her in her wishes so that she would continue to do his dirty work with the real estate fraud). Not saying Big Richard was a "nice guy" but I don't think giving a gun to a young man with a lot of enemies is the worst thing one could do. Logan may have some issues on the appropriatenes of how he takes out his anger, but he doesn't have unexpected insane rages a la Duncan. For Logan, it's more a chess game. Even when he gets nutso angry, he takes it out on inanimate objects, rather than people: a conscious rejection of his father's ways. And he knows how and when to use it: when his call to the police did not have the effect he needed, he escalated. I personally think he's a fool if he's going around with a gun that's not loaded: because you never pull a gun on someone unless you fully intend to shoot them. YMM(and probably does)V.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 28, 2005 12:13:17 GMT -5
I hadn't thought about it that way - repeating what was said or done before. Cool! Oh, I think that it likely happened then or around then too. But the idea of this guy just giving a teenager a gun . . . here ya go, Logan, friend of my sons! Have a deadly weapon 'cuz I think that sounds like a good thing to do. Well, it means we at least know he's thinking about it. But I worry that he still shows no signs of moving that thought out into the world at all. He's still just . . . going along. Not talking to anyone - of course, I can see why he's thinking he can't talk to Veronica (although I think he's wrong), and I can see (a bit) why he might not talk to Logan (although I think he's wrong there too). But he needs to get that stuff out of his head and into reality. There was tons o' symmetry! Read my analysis, and see what you think! I just sent it to Vlad so it's not up yet, but it should be soon - probably tomorrow or so. Huh.... I'm weird: I thought that was an actually nice gesture: indicated his concern for Logan's well-being in a town where he knew Logan had a lot of enemies. To me it was just a laginappe he tossed in on the fact that he appreciated that Logan was taking care of Kendall for him when he wasn't around (because I still think he knew everything about that:and was cheerfully accomodating her in her wishes so that she would continue to do his dirty work with the real estate fraud). Not saying Big Richard was a "nice guy" but I don't think giving a gun to a young man with a lot of enemies is the worst thing one could do. Logan is way too immature, and way too much of a hothead, to be carrying around a gun. Veronica's instincts are on target when she worries that he's going to get himself killed. I agree Big Dick meant well, in his fashion, but he's not the best example of a responsible adult, and here's another way he's showing us that. Also agree that Big Dick could easily have known about Logan and Kendall's affair. I agree Logan isn't insane, and he's not sadistic, or totally void of judgement. He's intelligent and underneath it all, he not a mean-spirited person. But he's rash, impulsive, unpredictable, currently very emotionally unstable due to repeated and extreme trauma, and personally, I don't think he shouldn't have a gun. A bodyguard, maybe. A gun, no. That gun sure came in handy, though - huh? But that's part of what I think we are meant to be debating, when it comes to this episode - when is the use of force justified? Is it effective? Are the positives worth the negatives? Etc.
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Post by Matthew on Nov 28, 2005 12:37:50 GMT -5
Huh.... I'm weird: I thought that was an actually nice gesture: indicated his concern for Logan's well-being in a town where he knew Logan had a lot of enemies. To me it was just a laginappe he tossed in on the fact that he appreciated that Logan was taking care of Kendall for him when he wasn't around (because I still think he knew everything about that:and was cheerfully accomodating her in her wishes so that she would continue to do his dirty work with the real estate fraud). Not saying Big Richard was a "nice guy" but I don't think giving a gun to a young man with a lot of enemies is the worst thing one could do. Logan is way too immature, and way too much of a hothead, to be carrying around a gun. Veronica's instincts are on target when she worries that he's going to get himself killed. I agree Big Dick meant well, in his fashion, but he's not the best example of a responsible adult, and here's another way he's showing us that. Also agree that Big Dick could easily have known about Logan and Kendall's affair. I agree Logan isn't insane, and he's not sadistic, or totally void of judgement. He's intelligent and underneath it all, he not a mean-spirited person. But he's rash, impulsive, unpredictable, currently very emotionally unstable due to repeated and extreme trauma, and personally, I don't think he shouldn't have a gun. A bodyguard, maybe. A gun, no. That gun sure came in handy, though - huh? But that's part of what I think we are meant to be debating, when it comes to this episode - when is the use of force justified? Is it effective? Are the positives worth the negatives? Etc. *Nods vigorously on the last part* Something Rob does better than a most storytellers is let us see the ambiguity, and accept it: Logan is not the ideal person to be carrying around a firearm, really: on that, you're correct: but it saved Veronica's face when he needed it to. I think it's meant to throw us completely off-balance. The only other thing they could do to make him more... questionable in whether his positives outweigh his negatives would be if he were to start smoking.
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Post by leftylady on Nov 28, 2005 12:43:35 GMT -5
Got my Sunday rerun tape and it reminded me that I haven't remembered to mention (must be the Turkey Daze) this since I haven't seen anyone else's comments on it:
As V enter the IT lab to get Mac's help, the camera pans on a screensaver/wallpaper in the foreground. A photo of a pyramid with a drawn eye above. As we always remind ourselves there is no throwaway in the VMverse.
1. money, money, money: This is the symbol on US legal tender. Right there in our faces. 2. Masonic symbol: as anyone who has read Dan Brown's DaVinci Code will remember, he conjures up a giant world wide conspiracy which he then points to secret organizations like Opus Dei and ... tada: the Masons. RT trying to tell us again (make that yet again) that this year is about conspiracies?
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 28, 2005 12:49:41 GMT -5
Got my Sunday rerun tape and it reminded me that I haven't remembered to mention (must be the Turkey Daze) this since I haven't seen anyone else's comments on it: As V enter the IT lab to get Mac's help, the camera pans on a screensaver/wallpaper in the foreground. A photo of a pyramid with a drawn eye above. As we always remind ourselves there is no throwaway in the VMverse. 1. money, money, money: This is the symbol on US legal tender. Right there in our faces. 2. Masonic symbol: as anyone who has read Dan Brown's DaVinci Code will remember, he conjures up a giant world wide conspiracy which he then points to secret organizations like Opus Dei and ... tada: the Masons. RT trying to tell us again (make that yet again) that this year is about conspiracies? Oh, yeah. I noticed that too - I didn't mention it in my review, but I thought it was about the Masonic thing, and related to Keith and Veronica debating about whether what was going on with Carlos and Maria was a consipiracy by the School Board, or something more personal. Veronica says it's probably the School Board tormenting Marcos' parents . . . Keith says, in his experience, its usually something more personal. Keith is the one who turns out to be right though. So . . . hard to say, but my totally wild guess would be that we're being given the message that it may SEEM like a conspiracy, but you know, most crime is about individuals after their own ends.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 28, 2005 12:53:50 GMT -5
Another question I had for everyone:
I didn't really understand how Veronica trapped Ryan into revealing himself. She sends out that free tickets offer, expecting that to attract people into calling her . . . and then she'll know when "the one" calls her . . . how??
Her "free tickets" offer didn't seem like very specific bait. How did she know the one who called her was the same one who emailed her? And why did he hang up on her? He recognized her voice, and figured something was up? She was counting on the immediate hang-up to clue her off, or . . .?
I accepted the whole thing - that Veronica's free tickets ruse worked somehow to identify the anonymous emailer, but I didn't really get it. Anyone have any enlightening words?
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Post by Sue on Nov 28, 2005 13:11:00 GMT -5
Another question I had for everyone: I didn't really understand how Veronica trapped Ryan into revealing himself. She sends out that free tickets offer, expecting that to attract people into calling her . . . and then she'll know when "the one" calls her . . . how?? Her "free tickets" offer didn't seem like very specific bait. How did she know the one who called her was the same one who emailed her? And why did he hang up on her? He recognized her voice, and figured something was up? She was counting on the immediate hang-up to clue her off, or . . .? I accepted the whole thing - that Veronica's free tickets ruse worked somehow to identify the anonymous emailer, but I didn't really get it. Anyone have any enlightening words? Way behind on posts (which look wonderfully thoughtful, BTW) and even on re-viewing, but I THINK she was able to send her free ticket email ONLY back in response to the the original anonymous email. (Carolyn tells me that it's pretty simple to disguise one's own email return address). So---she should only have received one call in response.
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Post by SpringSummers on Nov 28, 2005 13:22:22 GMT -5
Another question I had for everyone: I didn't really understand how Veronica trapped Ryan into revealing himself. She sends out that free tickets offer, expecting that to attract people into calling her . . . and then she'll know when "the one" calls her . . . how?? Her "free tickets" offer didn't seem like very specific bait. How did she know the one who called her was the same one who emailed her? And why did he hang up on her? He recognized her voice, and figured something was up? She was counting on the immediate hang-up to clue her off, or . . .? I accepted the whole thing - that Veronica's free tickets ruse worked somehow to identify the anonymous emailer, but I didn't really get it. Anyone have any enlightening words? Way behind on posts (which look wonderfully thoughtful, BTW) and even on re-viewing, but I THINK she was able to send her free ticket email ONLY back in response to the the original anonymous email. (Carolyn tells me that it's pretty simple to disguise one's own email return address). So---she should only have received one call in response. OH! Of course! Thanks, Sue. I was sure I was missing something, because it seemed like it was supposed to be a no-brainer, but I couldn't make heads or tails out of it. So - Veronica emails to the anonymous email address ONLY, which is a good address. She emails with an offer she thinks the mystery emailer will respond to. She disguises her email offer with a phony "sender" address, and writes the message so it sounds as if she's sending this "free ticket offer" to everyone. Veronica is figuring that whoever calls, asking about the free tickets, is therefore the one she's looking for. When he does call though, he hangs up immediately, without saying a word about the free tickets, because (I assume) he's recognized Veronica's voice, and realized it was a set-up. But, even though the caller didn't talk, Veronica still figures this unfamiliar number, with it's quick hang-up, is probably "the one," so she looks up the address, using the phone number on reverse look-up, and takes it from there. OK. I'm good.
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