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Post by Pixi on Mar 30, 2006 9:51:25 GMT -5
I'm sensing a theme here. Free...free.. free.. Mayor Woody Goodman is sponsoring a contest and the theme is "Freedom". Logan is free! Veronica would go to Hearst College if only to skip school. Hannah gave Logan a Get out of Jail Free cake. Madison bailed for someone more mature, and Dick is Free. (and he also thinks chicks are overrated) Yes we were literally plastered with frees weren't we?
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Post by Pixi on Mar 30, 2006 9:52:30 GMT -5
This is just an awesome episode....Madison skanking it up with Cliff and Lamb, Dick's despining, Wallace and his Wallaceness... Wasn't it though? And don't forget Cliff! Topless Cliff! Handcuffed Cliff! There is just not enough love.
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Post by Pixi on Mar 30, 2006 9:53:41 GMT -5
"Ice Man"? As in "Top Gun"? So, who is his wing man? This is actually another TWOP shoutout. Rob does love his shoutouts. Couch Baron - the recapper - called Troy (Aaron Ashmore) Icetwin in his season 1 recaps.
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Post by Pixi on Mar 30, 2006 9:55:25 GMT -5
did I miss something? Did they say who raped the girl? Nope - the mystery is unsolved.
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Post by Michelle on Mar 30, 2006 10:11:53 GMT -5
i don't believe so. last i heard was veronica saying: the guy that raped you is still out there. great episode! i don't have time right now to go into details . Enjoyed the ep, but I've decided not to trust first reactions anymore. I need to rewatch---something I don't always make time to do for eps I'm not reviewing, but which experience tells me really is essential to understanding/appreciating/catching important stuff. I'm in the same boat. I usually do re-watch the episodes anyway, but this one I think I really NEED to re-watch, because I had quite a different impression than the others who have commented so far. I agree on both counts. This really upset me. No one found out who the rapist was, but Veronica doesn't seem to care because at least she got Troy cleared. WTF??? This is not the Veronica I know and love. She has one true moment while talking to Maeby counseling her on the aftermath of rape, but then she just seemed to brush it off by the end of the show. And how did she *know* exactly that other girls had been raped by the same guy before? I didn't follow that chain of logic at all. Wasn't the trip to the wig shop the wild goose chase of all wild goose chases? And Troy just irked me, with his shoulder shrugging, and his "Can't you just believe me?" eye-blinking. Gah!! Please go away, Troy. Hee!!! Good idea. This episode Dick was practically screaming, "I'M GAY!!!" to Logan, wasn't he? I wonder if that is a mislead or not. Well, we can be pretty sure Lamb isn't gay, with his hot make out session with Madison. Hubba hubba. Good questions. And why the friggedy fuck didn't Keith and Cliff get a physical description of the guy who paid the escort to steal the briefcase? Oy. I'm thinking that's another reason why Hannah was shipped off to boarding school. The Fitzpatricks will definitely be going after both Griffith and his family for that betrayal. See, this is where the show really broke down for me. I don't understand why Hannah forgave Logan. He outright told her he is not a good person, that he used her and lied to her, but she takes him back with zero hesitation. Can anyone really be that "sweet" (i.e. stupid) and forgiving? How has he proved himself to her? He hasn't. Their relationship is just not believable for me. The forehead touching! And the puppy dog eyes!! I nearly threw up in my mouth. And did we really need to see the sex scene between those two? I didn't. Wasn't it bad enough in the last episode when it was just implied? The reason I enjoyed Logan and Veronica together last season is because I believed in it. They became close in a steady progression that made perfect sense to me. I am not so tied to the LoVe ship that I can't see Logan or Veronica with anyone else, but dang it, Rob Thomas, you better make me believe it. The episode was a little jarring. I will say, to try to end this on a positive note, that I loved, loved, loved all the scenes with Cliff and Keith. Cliff pulling a hamstring to call Keith, and the raspy, sort of whiskey-soaked voice, so different from his usual Fred MacMurray voice. Every line those two delivered was gold. I'm ready for a Cliff and Keith spin-off.
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Post by Sue on Mar 30, 2006 15:56:39 GMT -5
Good questions. And why the friggedy fuck didn't Keith and Cliff get a physical description of the guy who paid the escort to steal the briefcase? Amen yes, possibly [ Oh, not so hard for me to believe: --She's 16. A young, naive, sheltered 16 by the look of it. --He's 18: handsome, rich, "man of the world", "bad boy". He worked hard at dazzling her at the carnival and she fell hard. --She's a romantic. Her parents have split and she desperately wants to believe in true love. --She really believes what she told her mom about nobody else seeing and understanding the "real" Logan. (She does know for a fact that her father's accusation of him is bogus, why not all the other.) --A knight is a knight, even if slightly tarnished; especially if he himself tells you he's tarnished and tries to push you away for your own good: definite proof that he loves you and wants what best for you even if it causes him pain. --I guessing it's her first experience of a strong strong physical attraction and she has no clue how to use her brain to overcome the hormones, physical and emotional maelstrom. --I'm guessing she thinks she can "save" him; from himself, the world, his past. --She may think her love can "make him a better man." --And there is the additional lure of rebelling against both mom and dad who she's already angry at for divorcing, lying to her and trying to control her (keep her young and sequestered.) Lots and lots and lots of reasons for her behavior, IMO. ( My girls would never fall for it......but I've got a niece..... oh yeah.) As to the sex scene. Well, yeah, I'm beyond thankful that the doc burst in and halted THAT. Again, on the one hand I can definitely see her giving herself to her one true love and being swept away by passion. (assume rising music and italics!) On the other hand----16 years old, first time (?)---really shouldn't there have been a bit more awkwardness?
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Post by Queen E on Mar 30, 2006 17:28:15 GMT -5
Enjoyed the ep, but I've decided not to trust first reactions anymore. I need to rewatch---something I don't always make time to do for eps I'm not reviewing, but which experience tells me really is essential to understanding/appreciating/catching important stuff. I'm in the same boat. I usually do re-watch the episodes anyway, but this one I think I really NEED to re-watch, because I had quite a different impression than the others who have commented so far. I agree on both counts. This really upset me. No one found out who the rapist was, but Veronica doesn't seem to care because at least she got Troy cleared. WTF??? This is not the Veronica I know and love. She has one true moment while talking to Maeby counseling her on the aftermath of rape, but then she just seemed to brush it off by the end of the show. And how did she *know* exactly that other girls had been raped by the same guy before? I didn't follow that chain of logic at all. Wasn't the trip to the wig shop the wild goose chase of all wild goose chases? And Troy just irked me, with his shoulder shrugging, and his "Can't you just believe me?" eye-blinking. Gah!! Please go away, Troy. Hee!!! Good idea. This episode Dick was practically screaming, "I'M GAY!!!" to Logan, wasn't he? I wonder if that is a mislead or not. Well, we can be pretty sure Lamb isn't gay, with his hot make out session with Madison. Hubba hubba. Good questions. And why the friggedy fuck didn't Keith and Cliff get a physical description of the guy who paid the escort to steal the briefcase? Oy. I'm thinking that's another reason why Hannah was shipped off to boarding school. The Fitzpatricks will definitely be going after both Griffith and his family for that betrayal. See, this is where the show really broke down for me. I don't understand why Hannah forgave Logan. He outright told her he is not a good person, that he used her and lied to her, but she takes him back with zero hesitation. Can anyone really be that "sweet" (i.e. stupid) and forgiving? How has he proved himself to her? He hasn't. Their relationship is just not believable for me. The forehead touching! And the puppy dog eyes!! I nearly threw up in my mouth. And did we really need to see the sex scene between those two? I didn't. Wasn't it bad enough in the last episode when it was just implied? The reason I enjoyed Logan and Veronica together last season is because I believed in it. They became close in a steady progression that made perfect sense to me. I am not so tied to the LoVe ship that I can't see Logan or Veronica with anyone else, but dang it, Rob Thomas, you better make me believe it. The episode was a little jarring. I will say, to try to end this on a positive note, that I loved, loved, loved all the scenes with Cliff and Keith. Cliff pulling a hamstring to call Keith, and the raspy, sort of whiskey-soaked voice, so different from his usual Fred MacMurray voice. Every line those two delivered was gold. I'm ready for a Cliff and Keith spin-off. Word...Cliff and Keith were amazing last night! I disagree that Veronica was blowing off the experience of the girls in favor of proving Troy's innocence; I did get the sense that scenes were deleted for time, though, and generally I don't get that sense from VM. I'm betting that the Logan/Veronica conversation at JAVA the Hut was omitted, as well as Veronica's response to the girls at the dorm. And I have a feeling that the rapist will be part of next year's storyline.
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Post by Michelle on Mar 30, 2006 21:16:47 GMT -5
Word...Cliff and Keith were amazing last night! I disagree that Veronica was blowing off the experience of the girls in favor of proving Troy's innocence; I did get the sense that scenes were deleted for time, though, and generally I don't get that sense from VM. I'm betting that the Logan/Veronica conversation at JAVA the Hut was omitted, as well as Veronica's response to the girls at the dorm. And I have a feeling that the rapist will be part of next year's storyline. I agree, the rapist plot will most likely be picked up next season. And I realize that Veronica can't solve every mystery put before her. Because it bugged me though, I re-watched the scene where Veronica figured out that others beside the girl at the party had been raped. Here is Veronica's voice over as she walks in to the wig store: "So if someone sent Stacy a box of hair that wasn't hers, there's a chance that she's not the only victim and there's another girl at Hearst forced to wear a wig." How does she know the hypothetical girl would decide to wear a wig? Stacy didn't wear one. Well, I'm being nit-picky again I guess, but to me, this is another example of jarring edits and awkward progressions to move the plot along. I briefly browsed TWOP, and found most people raving about this episode. But a few people felt as I did: the episode had some very enjoyable moments, but was marred by flaws that were impossible for me to ignore.
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Post by Michelle on Mar 30, 2006 21:36:26 GMT -5
Their relationship is just not believable for me. Oh, not so hard for me to believe: --She's 16. A young, naive, sheltered 16 by the look of it. --He's 18: handsome, rich, "man of the world", "bad boy". He worked hard at dazzling her at the carnival and she fell hard. --She's a romantic. Her parents have split and she desperately wants to believe in true love. --She really believes what she told her mom about nobody else seeing and understanding the "real" Logan. (She does know for a fact that her father's accusation of him is bogus, why not all the other.) --A knight is a knight, even if slightly tarnished; especially if he himself tells you he's tarnished and tries to push you away for your own good: definite proof that he loves you and wants what best for you even if it causes him pain. --I guessing it's her first experience of a strong strong physical attraction and she has no clue how to use her brain to overcome the hormones, physical and emotional maelstrom. --I'm guessing she thinks she can "save" him; from himself, the world, his past. --She may think her love can "make him a better man." --And there is the additional lure of rebelling against both mom and dad who she's already angry at for divorcing, lying to her and trying to control her (keep her young and sequestered.) Lots and lots and lots of reasons for her behavior, IMO. OK, you've made some good points, particularly about her wanting to rebel against her parents. Here's where I struggle with it: The show thrives on really wonderful characters filled with many shades of gray. So I naturally assumed (and yes, I should have remembered what happens when you assume) that Hannah possessed a few more layers to her personality. I really expected Hannah to be up to...something, I don't know what. Or at least she would turn out to not be the innocent naive little thing that we originally thought she was. And I really didn't want to see the bad boy uses good girl, then falls for her cliche played out. But now I'm beating the dead horse beyond recognition, since Hannah has apparently gone bye-bye. Heh! You go, Mom! And now it's my turn to say, "AMEN!" Oh, remember the extra from last week that was standing in the hallway with Dick when Veronica walked up to him? I had commented on his unique, striking looks, and predicted we would see him again. He's one of the guys that Logan high-fives right before he break it off with Hannah.
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Post by raenstorm on Mar 30, 2006 21:41:23 GMT -5
Sorry I'm not quoting anyone - this is sorta free form replying to various posts. I finally saw the episode today (got basketball last night instead of the episode)... I, unlike Sue it seems, actually love Troy so I was happy to see him and I'd be very happy to have him back as a regular next year. That doesn't mean I trust the boy or think he's changed but I've always enjoyed the chemistry between those two so I wouldn't have a problem with him being around to make things interesting. That said, while I think the rape WILL play a part in next year's mystery, I don't think it will be THE mystery. I'm not sure why it would take that long to solve if Veronica were really focusing on it.... Erin made a comment about Dick earlier and I have to tell you... my newest theory on the bus crash is that Dick did it. Peter was talking about the "outing of all outings" right before the bus accident happens. Dick is the one who points out the smell and makes a point of making sure he and his "friends" are off the bus. I don't like the way he can turn on and off the "mean". It's funny that I'm the one who keeps going on and on about Dick not being complicated - and I'm not sure this makes him complicated either - but now I think he did it. There's more to my idea than that - like the fact that we're getting a lot of cute "joking" clues that he could be gay but they are sorta in the "that's funny but we all know he's not" vein. Plus, he's lying to Logan about Madison and I don't quite get why he doesn't have a good pick of girls in the school. He's one of "the" 09ers in school - there are plenty of girls who would want to move up the social food chain enough to hook up with Dick, even if he is a dick. So, yeah, I'm more and more convinced he could behind it all and that the other stuff will be related to it in another way. I sense a cover-up by Woody and Lamb and, though I think it has something to do with incorporation/real estate deals/REITs/blackmail, I haven't figured out a way to make it make sense yet. BUT, if I'm right... I think Sue's gut feeling is right and Dick will be out at the end of the season. Hmmm, what else? I'm torn on the Hannah thing. I think we were given clues all along that she'd forgive Logan. Not because it was the typical storyline (even if it was) but because of the earlier stuff with finding out that her dad was testifying against Logan... she had to already suspect that's why he was seeing her so I think she was prepared for him to admit it. She's young and wants to believe in him and he has nothing to gain by coming back to her at that point so she forgives him to keep her fantasy. Still, I would have preferred them to flaunt the typical storyline and have her not forgive him. It was a lesson that Logan needed. It was good that he felt bad and apologized, but her not forgiving him would also have taught him that even when you feel bad and make an effort you can still lose. He's got a horrible life but he's also spoiled and, if he's the one fucking things up, sometimes he shouldn't get something he wants. Plus, it just screwed things up. (I know, I know - we couldn't have Logan's part taken care of that easily so something had to screw things up. This part is just me talking about Logan being stupid. Necessary or not.) He may have the knowledge that someone did care enough about him to forgive him but now he's lost that person AND he's broken the deal with Dr. Griffith. 'Course, I'm not sure how Griffith can backtrack on retracting his witness account... so what will he do instead? In other news, loved that Veronica acknowledged her rape. Enjoyed all the Veronica/Wallace, Veronica/Keith, Keith/Cliff scenes. I like those combinations. Now, if I could just get Logan interacting with some of those people, I'd be in Heaven. In conclusion... Hearst College here we come!
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Post by Sue on Mar 30, 2006 21:42:33 GMT -5
Word...Cliff and Keith were amazing last night! I disagree that Veronica was blowing off the experience of the girls in favor of proving Troy's innocence; I did get the sense that scenes were deleted for time, though, and generally I don't get that sense from VM. I'm betting that the Logan/Veronica conversation at JAVA the Hut was omitted, as well as Veronica's response to the girls at the dorm. And I have a feeling that the rapist will be part of next year's storyline. I agree, the rapist plot will most likely be picked up next season. And I realize that Veronica can't solve every mystery put before her. Because it bugged me though, I re-watched the scene where Veronica figured out that others beside the girl at the party had been raped. Here is Veronica's voice over as she walks in to the wig store: "So if someone sent Stacy a box of hair that wasn't hers, there's a chance that she's not the only victim and there's another girl at Hearst forced to wear a wig." How does she know the hypothetical girl would decide to wear a wig? Stacy didn't wear one. Well, I'm being nit-picky again I guess, but to me, this is another example of jarring edits and awkward progressions to move the plot along. I briefly browsed TWOP, and found most people raving about this episode. But a few people felt as I did: the episode had some very enjoyable moments, but was marred by flaws that were impossible for me to ignore. I guess I simply heard "wear a wig" as a euphemism for "was raped." Not a literal comment. [Could as easily have said "wear a hat".] Nor do I think Veronica didn't care about catching the rapist and/or protecting other potential victims. But in the 2 years we've known her we've seen that she can supress and compartmentalize. She doesn't tend to angst or fret over situations where she has no control. Either she acts (kidnapping the baby, heading off alone into the frat basement, tazering, etc) or she blocks it out until she can find a time/place/reason to act. She dealt with her own rape but simply carrying on; likewise her assumed guilt over possibly being the target in the bus crash, etc. She really, really, really doesn't want or intend to be at Hearst next year so she's not going to angst over not being able to find a serial rapist in a strange environment over the course of one weekend. Now, if it were happening in Neptune, at Neptune high, to her friends (or even aquaintances) she'd stick on the case---which I assume is what she will do next year. She did clear the non-guilty party (one of those "aquaintances") in the time alloted and for now she's back in Neptune with other issues breathing down her neck.
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Post by Sue on Mar 30, 2006 22:10:36 GMT -5
So, yeah, I'm more and more convinced he could behind it all and that the other stuff will be related to it in another way. I sense a cover-up by Woody and Lamb and, though I think it has something to do with incorporation/real estate deals/REITs/blackmail, I haven't figured out a way to make it make sense yet. BUT, if I'm right... I think Sue's gut feeling is right and Dick will be out at the end of the season. But I don't think Woody and Lamb are conspiring with one another because if Woody's plan goes thru he wants to hire Keith to be police chief and leave Lamb to be sheriff to the have-nots left out in the cold. [Nashville has both a chief of police for the city plus a sheriff for the county. We didn't incoporate we "metropolized" and combined city and county governments. At the time tho it wasn't politically expediate to shut down the sheriff's office and now it's just sort of a vestigial thing. Instead of walling off the city and all the money fleeing to the suburbs we combined not only the governments but the school systems through out the county as well. It's a far cry from perfect (what is?) but it does keep the middle class invovled in the affairs of all parts of the city.]
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Post by rae going to bed on Mar 30, 2006 22:30:23 GMT -5
So, yeah, I'm more and more convinced he could behind it all and that the other stuff will be related to it in another way. I sense a cover-up by Woody and Lamb and, though I think it has something to do with incorporation/real estate deals/REITs/blackmail, I haven't figured out a way to make it make sense yet. BUT, if I'm right... I think Sue's gut feeling is right and Dick will be out at the end of the season. But I don't think Woody and Lamb are conspiring with one another because if Woody's plan goes thru he wants to hire Keith to be police chief and leave Lamb to be sheriff to the have-nots left out in the cold. [Nashville has both a chief of police for the city plus a sheriff for the county. We didn't incoporate we "metropolized" and combined city and county governments. At the time tho it wasn't politically expediate to shut down the sheriff's office and now it's just sort of a vestigial thing. Instead of walling off the city and all the money fleeing to the suburbs we combined not only the governments but the school systems through out the county as well. It's a far cry from perfect (what is?) but it does keep the middle class invovled in the affairs of all parts of the city.] Ahh, but I am not so sure about that. I just re-watched the first six episodes of the season last weekend and Lamb and Woody share a look/nod at the beginning of "Driver Ed" during the bus crash press conference that is just... weird. We only have Woody's word that he meant to hire Keith for that position all along because you're forgetting that when the season began - Woody wanted Keith to run for Sheriff which would have left Lamb out of a job and open for the police chief position. If Woody really wanted Keith for that position why have him run for Sheriff? He could have just told him his plans about incorporation and asked him to be the police chief once it got approved. What if Keith had won and become Sheriff? Of course the confusing part is why Lamb, if he knew that, would want to win over Keith... unless he suddenly doubted Woody and that's why he waited so long to bring up the info that Keith was the one who let the bus driver go without giving him a DUI. Like I said, it gets murky and I haven't worked it all out yet. But, I think Lamb and Woody have some connection and it's not the obvious "Woody and Lamb hate each other" that Terrence tells us about. We don't know that Terrence is right... just that that is what he thinks about it.
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Post by Sue on Mar 30, 2006 22:38:29 GMT -5
And speaking of even murkier.
Did I imagine it or when the Aaron/Lily sex videotapes were stolen wasn't it mentioned that the backup tape copies were also stolen?
So, there were two copies?
Any chance Logan (or bizarrely even Deputy Leo) still has a second set?
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Post by Guest on Mar 31, 2006 0:00:11 GMT -5
I've been lurking for awhile and love reading all the thoughts and insights. Recently I've found it very difficult to contain myself regarding Hannah. This is the first board I've ever posted on and I'm exposing my soft underbelly.
For part of this episode, I felt I was in a compare and contrast essay: Compare and contrast Veronica and Hannah on their willingness to forgive. Does the willingness or unwillingness to trust play a role?
IMHO, of course Logan is drawn to Hannah. She's an oasis in the desert. She's in stark contrast to the characters that inhabit Neptune, not necessarily a cliche or an archetype. She's open, honest, tender, caring, trusting, forgiving. And we see her maintain these traits despite difficult circumstances.
She has shades of gray, just not as pronounced as as our heroes. We see her defy her parents, tell a lie to surprise someone she cares about, use black humor to express her concern for an absurd situation, and we know she's very interested in having sex. She may be saccharine but she's not on a pedestal.
Of course Logan uses Hannah, falls for her, confesses his sin, is forgiven, only to have her seized from his tender embrace. Cliche? Contrived? What other way could you introduce a glimmer of hope in the cesspool that is Neptune?
I absolutely loved it! And full disclosure, I'm a diehard LoVe shipper.
Thanks for your indulgence.
DS
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