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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 14:55:34 GMT -5
To Serve Man - I didn't see the Angel ep, but this is interesting, because Dawn referred to that story as well this Season . . . I'm thinking it was the first ep, "Lessons." She said something, in response to Buffy giving her some advice, something like: "Yeah, yeah, I know - and To Serve Man is really a cookbook . . ."
What's it all mean? I think it was just another example of Joss giving us early on the 'clue' to the season surprise. And once again pulling the two shows together. It's such a delicious thing to do - just like reading a good Agatha Christie, where if we'd PAID ATTENTION at the beginning, we'd know who killed the old lady...except he throws in so many clues, some of them false, we can never figure it out.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 14:57:05 GMT -5
Ooohhh, James knows TZ episodes by name! Better watch your resident sci-fi geek status, David.
Aren't you too young to have seen the episodes when they first came out?
Heck, I'm almost too young to have seen them--they're in black and white!
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 14:57:57 GMT -5
...of course, now that I have to do out on errands. Catch up later.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 14:59:05 GMT -5
David is definitely still the Geek King. I'm just a pretender to the throne! LOL! Actually, while I am too young to have seen their first airing, I'm obssessed with TZ as I am with Buffy. I have them all on tape, and am currently building up the DVD collection. Definitely one of the best shows.
James Gaskins
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:02:50 GMT -5
//(And I'm sure when David gets on he can recap this in much greater detail). Andrew was referring to a Star Trek episode where the evil was feeding on on the evil impulses present in everyone. The more they tried to fight it (and I think there were Romulans also on the ship) and the more they fought each other, the stronger it got.
(I may be mixing up 2 different episodes here, though). I think in the end they put all the lesser crewmen to sleep. That left Kirk and a few regulars plus the top couple of Romulan guys still awake. They had to get over the desire to bash each other's brains out and did so by taunting the entity and eventually laughing together at it. Once all the evil impulses were gone (either asleep or laughing) the entity left the ship. //
You aren't mixing up two episodes. I'm not a big enough Star Trek fan to have memorized every episode name the way I have with Buffy and the Andrew probably has with Star Trek and all four spinoffs.
But yes, there was an alien entity that fed on the anger and hatred onboard the Enterprise. It brought a Romulan crew aboard, they set up seperate basecamps on the Enterprise, and everyone found themselves fighting with swords, since swords are more brutal than phasers. As I recall, someone died in battle, the entity brought them back to life so they could fight again and the battles could go on indefinitely. The Romulans blamed the Federation and the Federation blamed the Romulans for everything going on. It wasn't until both sides realized they were being played with by a third party that they laid down their weapons, refused to fight and began laughing at the superior being (the laughter taking the place of the anger and hatred, giving the being nothing to feed on), that the being left.
I can definitely see Andrew thinking of this Star Trek episode as a way to defeat the First Evil. Only difference is, TFE seems to work on a global scale -- the Enterprise, even with Romulans aboard, is much more contained and easier to control (i.e., get to lay down their hatred simply by asking it) than this entire planet. But in theory, it isn't that far-fetched a plan; destroy everyone's intention to do evil, at least temporarily, and in theory, no more TFE. The other question, besides how to go about keeping people from their desire to do evil (not counting Jasmine's plan of peaceful world conquest), is how long people have to go without wanting to do evil? An hour? A day? Forever? If evil were to return to their hearts, even a hundred years down the road, would TFE be recreated? The entity on Star Trek left the Enterprise, but it wasn't defeated -- it just went to feed on some other poor ship or planet. And it could have just as easily returned a week later when the Federation and the Romulans were back to hating each other again, although it would need a new plan -- as soon as the swords showed up, everyone would be like, "Oh, here we go again ... ha ha ha ha ...."
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:04:41 GMT -5
Slayage just put up what I spent 4 days typing....I could cry. However, they seemed to combine Saturday and Sunday Q&As. Oh well, it will make my job easier - I just cut and pasted a bunch of stuff...now I'll just compare it to my own tapes, so part 2 will be faster.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:06:29 GMT -5
I did read your note about my views of Spike and the S'cubies, and to a point you called me. I did go to Spike because I know of the S'cubies love for him; that and the AR scene really did seem parallel to me, but it had the extra benefit in argument-making that it was Spike that was involved. Do know I wasn't picking on you or saying you were so weird -- had it been an Angel board, I'd have possibly tried to find a good example involving him. And I invite anyone to use Willow as their argument when they want to get a good debate going -- "Okay, Dave, you say that about Spike's situation, but how is he different from Willow when she ...." Go for it -- I'm a huge Willow fan and I give her extra leeway for it, I admit it.
I don't think the S'cubies are a bunch of weirdos for loving Spike. We all have our favorite character, nothing odd about that. And Spike is a wonderfully complex character worthy of favorite character recognition. He's not my favotite, but he is high on my list of best ME characters (Willow and Wesley may be the only ones I find even more fascinating).
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:08:19 GMT -5
//Sue - yes - I agree - I'm familiar with the Twilight Zone ep. I just meant, what does it mean that characters in both shows have now referred to it? //
Does it mean anything other than a writer saw the episode and it made an impact? "Here endeth the lesson" has been said three times on Buffy. Has there been any significance to that line's repitition?
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:10:05 GMT -5
//So, is Gunn a reader of SF, or does he just get it from TV and movies? //
I get the impression Gunn is more of a TV/movie kind of guy. Mostly from the fact then when the books get pulled out for research, he happily hits the streets. He just strikes me as the type who would think mostly geeks hang out in libraries, and therefore have an aversion to them. That, and I think as much as Fred reads, that at some point he might have tried to have impressed her with his library, or his libary card. Although it could have happened off-screen.
If he does read scifi, my impression is he's probably a closet reader.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:11:17 GMT -5
//In an interview somewhere, sometime back, JM was talking about his jeans, saying that they got so disreputable and threadbare that the cast and crew were complaining about seeing too much.
Actually, the jeans in Rae's pic on 22/135 look like he gave up on the bad ones, and has made a good start on wearing out a new pair.//
Any chance those may have been the very jeans? This is Hollywood we're talking about, and jeans with holes in them aren't as vogue as they once were.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:13:07 GMT -5
Too bad I couldn't have gone with you last weekend. We could have double-teamed JM, hogtied him and dragged him back to Texas...
...Or maybe not...
...Two of us might have been too much for the dear boy...
You know what? You wouldn't have even wanted to. I of course saw the gorgeousness of him, but he was just so warm and kind and mature and thoughtful (as in wise) that I had no (almost no) Spike induced naughty thoughts about him. I just wanted to talk to him and listen to him for hours because I just KNEW we would be fast friends and have so much in common. And I am sure that's how he made everyone feel. He is a generous, - well, I can't express it. It makes me cry.
Maybe that's how Jasmine made people feel. But I detected no maggots.
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:14:26 GMT -5
Uh...in one episode there was a false distress call and Klingons came on board and they kept fighting each other, and it was called Day of the Dove....laughter drove out the evil entity....is that the episode?
Patti T.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:16:38 GMT -5
//Was thinking about Jasmine either before I went to sleep or after I woke up, can't remember, but I think she represents the AntiChrist, in this Revelation parallel story Joss has been telling on Angel. Especially since Connor killed her with that massive head injury...other parallels - she brought peace to the world, everyone was taken in, except for a few, she directed a temple built to herself...so, I kinda expect her to be back next week.//
Oh, in the Revelation parallel story, where the Beast is the Beast, Satan is the First Evil .... I also agree that Jasmine is very much the Antichrist. But we aren't for sure what Joss' storytelling motive is, if he was going for an apocolyptic showdown parellel to Revelations.
There are two possible ways that Jasmine can fit into the current armaggedon going on in Sunnydale with Caleb and TFE. Jasmine could by the Antichrist, which would mean that she's in cahoots with TFE and it's one big war against the human race. And I'm cool with that, but I've not yet seen anything definitive linking the two, other than hints like "the devourer" on one show and "from beneath you it devours" on the other (which was really about TFE, apparently).
On the other hand, Jasmine could represent, as I have suggested, a completely misguided force of not-quite good looking to save the world from TFE's army by taking out the human free will capacity to do evil.
For me, I just really want there to be some connection between TFE and Jasmine, either they're adversaries or in legion or something. It just strikes me as too coincidental that in California that there'd be two entities rising up for world domination at the same time that have absolutely nothing to do with one another and don't seem the least bit bothered that someone else is building an army with intents of taking over the very same turf. I want there to be something, anything linking Sunnydale to Los Angeles.
It was one thing when it was Adam on one show and Wolfram & Hart on the other -- Adam was small potatoes compared to what Wolfram & Hart was dealing with, so not an issue unless he spread, and Adam probably didn't even know about Wolfram & Hart. But now we have two otherwordly beings doing damage in the same state, less than two hours from each other, both with designs of taking over the entire globe within the next five minutes or so, definitely not working in alternate deminsions or times (Willow's trip to Los Angeles to retreive Faith gave proof that Angel and Buffy are both in the same time and same dimension still), and neither has even acknowledged the other as a threat or comrade or whatever.
To me, the thought of Jasmine as being an incredibly misguided PTB looking to pull the rug out from under TFE would have nicely accomplished that. Either way, I still want Joss to do or say something on one or both shows that will link them somehow, because I'm having a tough time buying the timing of them to believe they have absolutely nothing to do with one another.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:18:20 GMT -5
//David, one thought I've been having is that actions are evil, not people. So maybe I've been saying it wrong when I said Jasmine was evil. I should have said the things she did were evil. Hate the sin, love the sinner kind of thing? What Spike tried to do was evil. What Jasmine did was evil.
But if you never cease to do evil, if you never recognize an authority outside yourself, then you become that evil. You are ultimately responsible. It's my opinion that Spike later realized he had done evil, was shocked both that he had done it and that it BOTHERED him that he had done it, so he went and got the soul (repentance).
Jasmine remained unrepentant. She never saw her actions as evil. She never recognized an ultimate truth. She had no moral compass. I guess you are believing the things she told Angel before she tried to kill him by throwing a car at him, but I'm believing they were just the words of someone trying to torment him even more by saying what he had done was useless and stupid. //
THAT argument I'll buy. Because that is definitely Jasmine. She did a lot of horrible things, but I think it is entirely possible she believed in her mission and her motives. Could be that her mission and motives are so screwed up that she was the only PTB interested in being a part of it -- she did make a statement to Angel that she seemed miffed that the other PTBs weren't in it with her, and she felt that was because they didn't really care. She had a bad plan, but was unwilling to accept the wrongness of it. But deep down I do think she wanted to do a good thing.
Definitely her actions were evil. She did a lot of rotten things in bringing about her goal. Hurt a lot of innocent people. Some of it may have been driven by her own arrogance, which this wouldn't be the first time we've seen an arrogant god (remember Glory), but is it possible that now instead of one so completely into herself, she's arrogant about her plan and pissed that no one else seems to agree it was a great plan?
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 22, 2003 15:19:44 GMT -5
Sue, it seems there have been lots of parallels this season to season three. Don't know if Joss intended that, but in his desire to go back to the beginning, it does seem as if he got stuck in Buffy's senior year at high school. TFE was from season 3. Faith is from season 3. Lots upon lots of references made during the various episodes are flashbacks to season 3.
I wonder if there is any key to how this season will unfold to be found somewhere in season 3.
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