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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:25:49 GMT -5
David said, "Hear that, Alyson? I have really fast fingers ....."
I thought the idea was to have a 'slow hand'.
But I *am* terribly impressed with your fast fingers in the spectacular use of the "Post New Message" button. Verrrrry much appreciated. I promise I will keep up my end of the bargain.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:27:00 GMT -5
Miss Pamela, excellent punnage. A virtual terminal moraine.
Nan
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:28:44 GMT -5
David: "In a way, teasers to me don't count as spoilers because they so often are designed to arouse and mislead,..."
David, with your definition here of "teaser", sounds like that could also refer to Buffy's behavior toward Spike in mid-S6. Of course, she ended up treating him so badly and really killed the "buzz" going between "OMWF" and "Smashed" that it ultimately made her a "spoiler" as well.
Yeah, I'm tired and I don't wanna go to bed either - but I just couldn't help seeing the similarities. ;-)
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:29:55 GMT -5
Thanks! Helped me get the Linguistics Chair, y'know.
Hey, I thought you were off to beddy-bye - back for more pun-ishment and fun? ;-)
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:32:28 GMT -5
//Maybe Jasmine knew the first evil was coming, and wanted to stop the Apocolypse the only way she knew how? Didn't she say she wanted to eradicate ALL evil, the very thing that they keep saying on Buffy can't be eradicated because it's within us. Thus making the first evil undefeatable, in the scoobies' minds. So would that make her good but misguided? //
Glad to know I wasn't the only one thinking this line of thought at the end of the episode. But I didn't consider it as far as you've taken it, and your hypothesis makes sense to me. The First Evil apparently is the sum of evil and feeds off the evil in people's hearts, therefore it can't be destroyed unless you destroy people's desires to do evil -- hence, take away their free-will.
It actually might have been nice if, at some point during her conversation with Angel at the end of the episode, when she was spouting out about how all she wanted to do was good, and that killing a few to save many shouldn't be such a bad thing, etc., if she'd included a line to the effect of, "You seem to think I'm so bad. But brother, there are a lot worse things brewing already. You know what they are, you've seen them. You know how powerful they can be. I wanted to save the world, they want to destroy it. And we could have stopped them. But you had to stop me instead."
I don't know, but I think a line like that included somewhere might have been enough for me to put the events in Los Angeles into perspective with the events in Sunnydale. Two ultimately powerful forces coming into the world, only two hours from each other, preparing to do battle with each other. On both sides, people are dying as these entities come into the world and prepare the battle ground. One wants to destroy the world, the other wants to destroy free will in hopes of protecting the world. Neither is really good, but they are dimetrically opposing forces in what could have been a final battle for the entire world. Except that Angel and company didn't like the idea of losing their free will anymore than they wanted to see the world destroyed, and rightfully so.
Angel destroyed the one side -- okay, with a whole lot of help from Connor and the head of an alien -- in hopes of protecting our free will (and possibly never really knowing about the other side), and now Buffy and company are all that stands between The First Evil and the world.
If this is the senario that is in place -- if Jasmine and The First Evil are cosmic enemies -- it makes certain elements of Jasmine's existence make sense. For one, it explains why it was necessary to take out Wolfram & Hart, since they were an entity of the First Evil (more or less, if you consider all evil things in this world ultimately answer to the First Evil whether they know it or not) right on Jasmine's doorstep, possibly poised to stop Jasmine. Also, Jasmine's desire to kill anyone who she couldn't control -- anyone not under her control held the potential to continue feeding The First Evil, and so in Jasmine's mind, needed to be erradicated.
Jasmine believed there were no absolutes in good or evil, and so that may also be why she didn't see herself as evil because even though she killed people and took away free will, well her destruction and motives were at least more pure than The First Evil's, or perhaps less pure if taken from the angle of pure evil.
Maybe next week, with Lilah's re-introduction, the answer of whether or not Jasmine was pure in her desire to save the world (but corrupted in her methods, no doubt), and what part Jasmine played in relation to the First Evil's impending apocalypse. It should be interesting to watch it play out.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:34:05 GMT -5
David: "Compare this to Spike's attack on Buffy last year, which this board has been quick to say was not rape because it wasn't Spike's intention. Spike's motives weren't evil, but his outcome looked remarkably like rape (I say "looked" on purpose, because I too agree it wasn't his motive and it's not fair to call it that). Spike's intentions were good (more or less), but his outcome was bad -- does that make him evil? And if not, how is that different from Jasmine?"
You may be right about Jasmine, although now I'm not sure about her yet. I've been thinking all along she's evil - hopefully we may know more next week.
Also, thank you for letting me know that this board (or at least perhaps the majority of posters) and I are of the same opinion regarding Spike's "attack" on Buffy last year. That always has been and probably always will be my biggest "sore spot" of disagreement with so many other fans (and some of the "Buffy" writers) as far as anything they ever showed on tv (i.e., in canon).
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:35:34 GMT -5
"The First Evil apparently is the sum of evil and feeds off the evil in people's hearts, therefore it can't be destroyed unless you destroy people's desires to do evil -- hence, take away their free-will."
Man, that's profound! In fact, the whole discussion you both (David and Julie) are having is quite impressive and insightful to me, especially in its depth. I never thought of it that way, and it sure would be one hell of a twist if killing Jasmine was the greater of two evils (as opposed to The Beast wiping out W & H).
Could this also be compared then, to Buffy refusing the Shamens' extra demonic slayer-power in "Get It Done"? She sure had some immediate second thoughts after seeing the Uber-Vamp army in her dream / vision afterwards - so maybe the Fang Gang will gain a similar insight next week.
And with so many Biblical parallels we're seeing right now in both BtVS and AtS, might I say that I often tell people that I believe there's evil in the "real world" because God wants people to have free wills to do good OR evil. Yeah, there's a price to be paid afterwards, but He doesn't want robots blindling obeying and worshiping Him - only free-thinking people.
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:36:55 GMT -5
Here's a possible debate topic, or maybe an essay someone might like to try their hand at -- motives vs. actions, which define a person as good or evil? I submit Spike's attack on Buffy and Jasmine's (apparent) desire to save the world as potential talking points.
If it is an essay situation, I think it might be interesting if two people tackled it, writing point-counterpoint. This, of course, would play out best if the question of Jasmine's real motives are never really answered, i.e., we're left asking whether what she said about her intent was true or just more lying on her part.
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:38:22 GMT -5
//Could this also be compared then, to Buffy refusing the Shamens' extra demonic slayer-power in "Get It Done"? She sure had some immediate second thoughts after seeing the Uber-Vamp army in her dream / vision afterwards - so maybe the Fang Gang will gain a similar insight next week.//
It will be interesting to see if that element of BtVS plays out anymore. It was suggested that Caleb's line, "I've got something of yours," referred to the extra power the shamen offered Buffy. Buffy turned down the power in a desire to remain pure; her thought, I believe, was that she couldn't be fighting for the good if her power was drawn from evil. And that may play out in the end as being the right choice, because although the extra power would have been helpful in defeating Caleb and the Turok-Han, there will still be The First Evil to face. Even if Buffy were to flaten Caleb and the Turok-Han army by using the extra demon power, her concern was that by accepting the power, The First Evil would have already won over her because she would belong even more to it.
I'm reminded of Todd McFarlane's "Spawn" series. Spawn is a man who was unjustly murdered when he tried to give up being a government black bag operative, and now has been called to lead Satan's army of demons in the final armeggeddon. Except that Spawn has no interest in using his powers to support Satan's efforts. The complexity that makes it fascinating is that every time Spawn resists, every time he takes on one of the Devil's minions who comes to Earth, even if he defeats the demon he still loses because he continues to fuel the battle between good and evil. It can be bizarre and complex, but it does to me parallel what Buffy was facing -- take the power and defeat the evil, but do it by becoming (more) evil herself. If she beats Caleb by using the demonic power, does she win the battle but lose the war?
David Crenshaw
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:39:49 GMT -5
Yes, in fact that was me (several hundred posts ago!) that told you of the idea (my husband's, actually) of Caleb having what should've been Buffy's power from the Shamen. That MIGHT still play out, especially given the inscription that Spike read at the monastery - the one that Caleb didn't like!
And good comparison of the "Spawn" series. I think in a very simplified nutshell, it just goes to show just how complicated things really are and how much grey area there really can be in life.
I do think some folks ARE wrong in their substitution of "situational ethics" exclusively instead of NO concrete notions of right and wrong. But in any case, I think that's been one of the Buffy's and the Scooby's biggest downfalls: trying to fit everything into only one of two compartments: black/wrong or white/good.
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:41:15 GMT -5
Forgive me if I'm intruding here, but I must just say I'd LOVE to take on this topic from the "Spike attacked Buffy but not because he's evil" standpoint. I really don't have time to do so right now - and I REALLY have better "real work" things I should be doing instead of chatting here |-) - but I'll give Spike the full benefit of the doubt on that issue every time.
Maybe I still will tackle that topic later on!
Miss Pamela
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:42:54 GMT -5
Then simply click on the Link below. I think she had fun!
See the Pics!
Vlad, TA, tp
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:43:55 GMT -5
I saw your post about not getting a response to my post (oh, this is going to make NO sense...)
No, dear, I'd NEVER ignore you. I didn't catch your post about my suggestion. In case you haven't noticed, there's been a little activity on the board in the last 24 hours. I've been skimming like mad in the hopeless attempt to keep up.
Did you like the idea of switching sides? Or was it a turkey (don't worry, I'm not thin-skinned--much.)
Try again, or email me privately and we'll schmooze. Or better, email me your phone # and I'll call you over the weekend.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:45:03 GMT -5
If bolding in the heading, turn off bold before going to main message or the whole message is bold.
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Post by Dalton on Sept 9, 2003 17:46:06 GMT -5
Just finished watching the Highlander episode, Diplomatic Immunity, guest starring Alexis Denisof. Quite the different performance from Wesley -- this time he was a coke-snorting murderer, completely screwed up. It's interesting that from this performance anyone could concieve of him playing the ponce that Wesley originated as.
I miss that show, Highlander. Before Buffy, that was the best show on TV. They had watchers, and the two Buffy stars that performed on Highlander as guest stars, Alexis and Anthony Stewart Head, both played watchers on Buffy. Also, this particular episode, was a lot about redemption, a prevelent theme on BtVS. Think Joss might have caught the show once or twice?
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