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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 21, 2006 12:56:04 GMT -5
Lee's doubts. Dee's support. If we don't they'll be no one to remember a man named William Adama, or a battlestar named Galactica. Anders telling Tigh off. Wow. Ellen's lament and confession. Cavil is the one in charge? For real? Should have stayed on Galatica. Wait, did Ellen kill herself or something? I'm confused. Anyway, that was a beautiful scene between the Tighs. Baltar lecturing the Cylons What is Lucy Lawless concerned about here exactly? Ah, revenge. What is Gaeta drawing? Attack commences. Yay! Weapons hidden under the Pyramids court. Clever. Pretty formation. 2 Battlestars? Is that what the decoy was for? Or did Lee suddenly change is mind? Leoben knocked Kara out pretty easily there. And also, I would have suspected more out of Kara. Doesn't bode well. Jammer's guilty conscience. Ah, they were both decoys. Yay! Ander's found Kara! But I'm guessing that Kara is going to want to go back to find Kacey. Yep, she's going to go back for Kacey. A nuke. Yep. The Cylons offer Baltar sanctuary. Will he choose sanctuary or death? Go Gaeta! Disillusionment. Either way, the human race dies with me. Baltar's chance at redeeming himself a wee bit. So Lee did jump in the fight after all. And this is how they get rid of Pegasus. Ugh. Kara giving into Leoben. Ugh. My eyes, my eyes!!!!!! She's gonna kill him again? In front of Kacey? Yep. If that child's not a Cylon, she's going to be traumatized for life. Poor Anders. The temple? Is it Hera/Isis? Yep. And Maya's dead! Poor Maya. She never knew what she got into. Or did she? Ah, they're going to battle for the child. Ah, Kacey's not Kara's. Nor a Cylon (or is she?). The Cylons just kidnapped her. Didn't see that one coming. This is bigger than us. This is life. But the baby's not dead, of course. Trimming the 'stache. Yay! Do we get to see Lee on the treadmill too? So the overall affect of the occupation: 1) assloads of trauma 2) Kara was mindfucked for 4 months, and bonding with a little girl who is not actually her daughter. 3) Tigh lost an eye. 3) Gaeta's no longer hero-worshipping Baltar. 4) The Cylons now have Hera/Isis. 5) Pegasus has been destroyed 6) Baltar has fully gone over to the dark side and everybody knows it. 7) Of the named cast, we've lost Nora, Duck, Ellen(?), ?? and Maya. The human population now is 8) Did any skinjob Cylons mix themselves up with the evacuating populace? 9) What is the status of their resources now? It will be interesting to see how this all shakes down. I think I missed some things. Is there anyone except for Baltar and Hera/Isis that got left behind with the Cylons? This episode played during what was supposed to be recordings of Threshold and Doctor Who Exactly how many times did this episode show last night?
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 21, 2006 13:01:56 GMT -5
Watching again since it's so quiet in here now. OMG! You really did smother the children. #rofl1#
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 21, 2006 13:07:31 GMT -5
Awesome special effects! I loved the effect of the fake 'snow' swirling about on NewCaprica at the end. And there was one shot looking back at the gate they had all just broken through that was very effective in showing us just how bleak their lives had been. I know! Really very stunningly heartbreaking. This has been a very emotional, gut-wrenching first few episodes. What we need now is an episode to break the tension and bleakness...an ep where those crazy kids do some sort of wacky hijincks, like group amnesia--Laura and Tigh thinking they're engaged, except Laura decides she doesn't want to marry this crazy old fart with one eye, thin!Lee and Helo thinking they're in love with each other, etc. Or everyone doing some sort of magical mushroom group thing and waking up thinking they're teenage versions of themselves...I'd pay good money to watch Laura and Adama flirt like teenagers...and then Tom and Adama get in a fist fight over Laura.... I really am kidding. ;D I would totally love to see that. ;D
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Post by rich on Oct 21, 2006 20:39:15 GMT -5
I knew it! What I don't get is how he "saw" that Kara would come for the child, but he seemed so surprised when she killed him again. And did he really think that forcing her to tell him she loved him would really mean anything? The guy is soooo delusional. Leoben tried to do to Kara interpersonally what the Cylons where trying to do the whole New Caprica community socially and politically. The Cylons were trying to make the Humans love them and failing to see the flaw in that plan. You can't make someone love you. Love is a gift.
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Post by Karen on Oct 22, 2006 8:54:39 GMT -5
The guy is soooo delusional. Leoben tried to do to Kara interpersonally what the Cylons where trying to do the whole New Caprica community socially and politically. The Cylons were trying to make the Humans love them and failing to see the flaw in that plan. You can't make someone love you. Love is a gift. Oh. Good point. Then 'love' *is* the missing element that the humans have and the Cylons need to make their existence mean anything. Really makes me wonder what they'll (Leoben and the Cylons) come up with when they regroup and try again.
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 10:32:37 GMT -5
Leoben tried to do to Kara interpersonally what the Cylons where trying to do the whole New Caprica community socially and politically. The Cylons were trying to make the Humans love them and failing to see the flaw in that plan. You can't make someone love you. Love is a gift. Oh. Good point. Then 'love' *is* the missing element that the humans have and the Cylons need to make their existence mean anything. Really makes me wonder what they'll (Leoben and the Cylons) come up with when they regroup and try again. I imagine that's what Hera is about. The missing element. What Hera did for #3 makes me think that the Cylons need her more than the humans do.
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 10:46:25 GMT -5
I re-watched the episode last night and I am still unhappy that Ellen died. I suppose Saul couldn't just take her back to the Galactica with the rest when they all knew what she'd done. I guess she could have been kept in the brig but...that's no kind of life.
*sigh*
Not considering the rescue by Galactica: What would the insurgents have done if Saul had been taken back to detention? Tried to break him out? How many soldiers would they have lost in the attempt? Or, a better scenario for the example I'm trying to make: If Ellen had refused to comply with Cavil's demand that she leak information and the Cylons HAD come for Saul to take him back to detention, wouldn't Anders and the rest of them done their damndest to keep him safe? Wouldn't that have involved losing people, too?
Why was Ellen's way of protecting Saul so much worse?
I guess I'm still just wondering WHY she had to die.
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Post by Karen on Oct 22, 2006 10:52:15 GMT -5
I re-watched the episode last night and I am still unhappy that Ellen died. I suppose Saul couldn't just take her back to the Galactica with the rest when they all knew what she'd done. I guess she could have been kept in the brig but...that's no kind of life. *sigh* Not considering the rescue by Galactica: What would the insurgents have done if Saul had been taken back to detention? Tried to break him out? How many soldiers would they have lost in the attempt? Or, a better scenario for the example I'm trying to make: If Ellen had refused to comply with Cavil's demand that she leak information and the Cylons HAD come for Saul to take him back to detention, wouldn't Anders and the rest of them done their damndest to keep him safe? Wouldn't that have involved losing people, too? Why was Ellen's way of protecting Saul so much worse? I guess I'm still just wondering WHY she had to die. I'm thinking that's the point. That she didn't HAVE to die (there is always a choice), but to keep her alive? How would you do that? Will they keep any of the 'turncoats' alive now that they're back on Galactica, or will there be some kind of amnesty given them. Especially for Gaeta.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 22, 2006 11:06:53 GMT -5
I re-watched the episode last night and I am still unhappy that Ellen died. I suppose Saul couldn't just take her back to the Galactica with the rest when they all knew what she'd done. I guess she could have been kept in the brig but...that's no kind of life. *sigh* Not considering the rescue by Galactica: What would the insurgents have done if Saul had been taken back to detention? Tried to break him out? How many soldiers would they have lost in the attempt? Or, a better scenario for the example I'm trying to make: If Ellen had refused to comply with Cavil's demand that she leak information and the Cylons HAD come for Saul to take him back to detention, wouldn't Anders and the rest of them done their damndest to keep him safe? Wouldn't that have involved losing people, too? Why was Ellen's way of protecting Saul so much worse? I guess I'm still just wondering WHY she had to die. I don't freakin' know, since Saul's continued presence in the resistance, his continued leadership of it, was a gift bought by Ellen herself. She committed a betrayal of them, at a moment when it could have cost them everything: but fortunately, she didn't know that: she was just thinking in terms of the endless life on New Caprica, and what she had to do to protect Saul, and trying to forget about anyone else that was hurt or killed in the process, as they weren't Saul. Maybe Ellen thought that there was no forgiveness for that, and that's why she was willing to drink the hemlock. I don't know. I just know that the whole thing makes me bleed for Saul and Ellen Tigh. The successful escape from New Caprica was Saul's gift: Saul's presence to be able to engineer it, in every bloody innocent-bystander-killing manner, was Ellen's. I think he knows it, and that's why he was weeping his guts out over her body.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 22, 2006 11:17:17 GMT -5
I re-watched the episode last night and I am still unhappy that Ellen died. I suppose Saul couldn't just take her back to the Galactica with the rest when they all knew what she'd done. I guess she could have been kept in the brig but...that's no kind of life. *sigh* Not considering the rescue by Galactica: What would the insurgents have done if Saul had been taken back to detention? Tried to break him out? How many soldiers would they have lost in the attempt? Or, a better scenario for the example I'm trying to make: If Ellen had refused to comply with Cavil's demand that she leak information and the Cylons HAD come for Saul to take him back to detention, wouldn't Anders and the rest of them done their damndest to keep him safe? Wouldn't that have involved losing people, too? Why was Ellen's way of protecting Saul so much worse? I guess I'm still just wondering WHY she had to die. I'm thinking that's the point. That she didn't HAVE to die (there is always a choice), but to keep her alive? How would you do that? Will they keep any of the 'turncoats' alive now that they're back on Galactica, or will there be some kind of amnesty given them. Especially for Gaeta. Legal amnesty and true emotional forgiveness are two different things: even in Felix' case, where he was the most successful agent the Resistance had in the administration. The news that he was their main pipeline for information they needed is an intellectual piece of information: the fact that he was a symbol for the hated collaborator administration, and the assistant to traitor President Baltar is an emotional piece of information: something that resounds off the hatred and resentment in the gut. Jammer, for instance: a true collaborator: but with his reasons: trying to make the necessary pill of the rulership of the Cylons easier to swallow by the populace: I'm sure his vision of doing so had nothing to do with kidnapping friends in the middle of the night while wearing a balaclava, and nothing to do with hauling them out into the woods for summary executions. But even with his freeing of Cally at the last moment, there's not gonna be much in the way of forgiveness for him, even though his own purpose in it was to try and reduce the number of killings that the cylons engaged in. The head understands that he was trying to follow the best course for everyone he knew in a hellish situation: the gut screams out that he was a tool for the opressors. And we so much more often listen to our guts than our heads.
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Post by Karen on Oct 22, 2006 11:20:36 GMT -5
I re-watched the episode last night and I am still unhappy that Ellen died. I suppose Saul couldn't just take her back to the Galactica with the rest when they all knew what she'd done. I guess she could have been kept in the brig but...that's no kind of life. *sigh* Not considering the rescue by Galactica: What would the insurgents have done if Saul had been taken back to detention? Tried to break him out? How many soldiers would they have lost in the attempt? Or, a better scenario for the example I'm trying to make: If Ellen had refused to comply with Cavil's demand that she leak information and the Cylons HAD come for Saul to take him back to detention, wouldn't Anders and the rest of them done their damndest to keep him safe? Wouldn't that have involved losing people, too? Why was Ellen's way of protecting Saul so much worse? I guess I'm still just wondering WHY she had to die. I'm thinking that's the point. That she didn't HAVE to die (there is always a choice), but to keep her alive? How would you do that? Will they keep any of the 'turncoats' alive now that they're back on Galactica, or will there be some kind of amnesty given them. Especially for Gaeta. Thinking further on it, I suppose you meant why did Anders and Saul agree that Ellen had to die? Because they felt the rest of the insurgents would want to draw and quarter her, so they were actually doing her a favor? In the end, she took the decision out of their hands, as someone here said so well (Lola? Onjel?). Because she knew what kind of hell she'd be in for and Saul and Anders knew, too.
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Post by Karen on Oct 22, 2006 11:28:08 GMT -5
I'm thinking that's the point. That she didn't HAVE to die (there is always a choice), but to keep her alive? How would you do that? Will they keep any of the 'turncoats' alive now that they're back on Galactica, or will there be some kind of amnesty given them. Especially for Gaeta. Legal amnesty and true emotional forgiveness are two different things: even in Felix' case, where he was the most successful agent the Resistance had in the administration. The news that he was their main pipeline for information they needed is an intellectual piece of information: the fact that he was a symbol for the hated collaborator administration, and the assistant to traitor President Baltar is an emotional piece of information: something that resounds off the hatred and resentment in the gut. Jammer, for instance: a true collaborator: but with his reasons: trying to make the necessary pill of the rulership of the Cylons easier to swallow by the populace: I'm sure his vision of doing so had nothing to do with kidnapping friends in the middle of the night while wearing a balaclava, and nothing to do with hauling them out into the woods for summary executions. But even with his freeing of Cally at the last moment, there's not gonna be much in the way of forgiveness for him, even though his own purpose in it was to try and reduce the number of killings that the cylons engaged in. The head understands that he was trying to follow the best course for everyone he knew in a hellish situation: the gut screams out that he was a tool for the opressors. And we so much more often listen to our guts than our heads. We listen to our guts more often in the heat of the moment. The head will prevail when there is more time to reason and see all sides of the issue. Unless there is something or someone who continues to fan the flames. Interesting parallel between Jammer and Ellen. One did what they did for the (maybe misguided, but well-intentioned) good of the many, while the other did it for the good of the one.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 22, 2006 11:34:14 GMT -5
I'm thinking that's the point. That she didn't HAVE to die (there is always a choice), but to keep her alive? How would you do that? Will they keep any of the 'turncoats' alive now that they're back on Galactica, or will there be some kind of amnesty given them. Especially for Gaeta. Thinking further on it, I suppose you meant why did Anders and Saul agree that Ellen had to die? Because they felt the rest of the insurgents would want to draw and quarter her, so they were actually doing her a favor? In the end, she took the decision out of their hands, as someone here said so well (Lola? Onjel?). Because she knew what kind of hell she'd be in for and Saul and Anders knew, too. As much as I think you are right about the hell she'd be in for, and the shortness of her life in the fleet at large, I still don't want to view executing her for being completely-in-love as a... favor. I don't think Anders was thinking in terms of mercy: I think he was thinking more in terms of "She's your problem, Saul, you deal with her." He did take her betrayal understandably personally, as he was one of the ones who nearly got his arse shot off because of it. Saul? I can only guess at what he was thinking: "I wish I were anywhere but here" and overwhelming love for the woman who gave everything for him, even things he'd not want given: and desperate need to continue to have her around. Saul and Ellen had about the most emotionally explosive and intense relationship I've EVER seen depicted: they were all guts, all the time; but they truly did love each other. "not everyone" indeed.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 22, 2006 11:48:47 GMT -5
Legal amnesty and true emotional forgiveness are two different things: even in Felix' case, where he was the most successful agent the Resistance had in the administration. The news that he was their main pipeline for information they needed is an intellectual piece of information: the fact that he was a symbol for the hated collaborator administration, and the assistant to traitor President Baltar is an emotional piece of information: something that resounds off the hatred and resentment in the gut. Jammer, for instance: a true collaborator: but with his reasons: trying to make the necessary pill of the rulership of the Cylons easier to swallow by the populace: I'm sure his vision of doing so had nothing to do with kidnapping friends in the middle of the night while wearing a balaclava, and nothing to do with hauling them out into the woods for summary executions. But even with his freeing of Cally at the last moment, there's not gonna be much in the way of forgiveness for him, even though his own purpose in it was to try and reduce the number of killings that the cylons engaged in. The head understands that he was trying to follow the best course for everyone he knew in a hellish situation: the gut screams out that he was a tool for the opressors. And we so much more often listen to our guts than our heads. We listen to our guts more often in the heat of the moment. The head will prevail when there is more time to reason and see all sides of the issue. Unless there is something or someone who continues to fan the flames. Interesting parallel between Jammer and Ellen. One did what they did for the (maybe misguided, but well-intentioned) good of the many, while the other did it for the good of the one. There's almost always someone willing to fan the flames. Hell, I see bumper stickers promising vengeance for a hundred-and-forty year old conflict, where the bumper-stickers' wielders' ancestors were in the morally indefensible portion of the fracas. And even if the North-South conflict is now mostly a joke to those of us who dont run around in pointy sheets, there are other places. Northern Ireland. Former Yugoslavia. Chechnya. Shia and Sunni, and that animosity has been around for 1300 years, about. And on the individual level, while living memory keeps going? I think it's worse. I've been in mental places, myself, where following the head instead of the heart, the gut, was almost impossible: I don't trust the head, and rationality, as much as I wish I could.
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 11:50:52 GMT -5
Interesting points you guys; I'm still ruminating.
Another thought occurs to me: Sharon. Sharon SHOT ADAMA. But she's been living aboard Galactica and apparently accepted enough to not only be sent by Adama to coordinate the rescue mission, but married Helo. Oh, and: Actual Cylon.
My point being: How is Ellen less acceptable?
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