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Post by Matthew on Oct 22, 2006 11:54:50 GMT -5
Interesting points you guys; I'm still ruminating. Another thought occurs to me: Sharon. Sharon SHOT ADAMA. But she's been living aboard Galactica and apparently accepted enough to not only be sent by Adama to coordinate the rescue mission, but married Helo. Oh, and: Actual Cylon. My point being: How is Ellen less acceptable? "Oh, but that was a different Sharon!" Bleah. Dunno. Good question. I don't think I'm gonna stop ruminating on this element. Inidicative of good writing, to me, if you can't tie it up into a nice pretty easy bundle. ETA: I mean, if we are talking about these fictional characters as if they were real people, and debating "what the hell were they thinking?" rather than "What the hell was the writer thinking?" than the writers have done very well indeed.
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 12:15:44 GMT -5
Interesting points you guys; I'm still ruminating. Another thought occurs to me: Sharon. Sharon SHOT ADAMA. But she's been living aboard Galactica and apparently accepted enough to not only be sent by Adama to coordinate the rescue mission, but married Helo. Oh, and: Actual Cylon. My point being: How is Ellen less acceptable? "Oh, but that was a different Sharon!" Bleah. Dunno. Good question. I don't think I'm gonna stop ruminating on this element. Inidicative of good writing, to me, if you can't tie it up into a nice pretty easy bundle. ETA: I mean, if we are talking about these fictional characters as if they were real people, and debating "what the hell were they thinking?" rather than "What the hell was the writer thinking?" than the writers have done very well indeed. Oh, I always think about the writers when I'm trying to understand what they've done with the characters. Some times more than others, but it's always in the back of my mind: what are they trying to say? What's the message? Here's what I'm getting so far - subject to change since I'm going to watch the ep again when I can and it's always interersting getting differnt viewpoints here: Hera is the missing element that the Cylons need to become, like Pinocchio, "real" people. The way Sharon seems to be - love for Helo, love for Hera, love for Adama, love for the group whose acceptance (the uniform) she's worked so hard for. And Caprica Six feels it in (IMO) a kind of weird, twisted way. But the real human person Ellen, driven by that very same innate element, must be executed for acting on it. FRAK! I HATE these people!
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Post by Matthew on Oct 22, 2006 12:44:21 GMT -5
"Oh, but that was a different Sharon!" Bleah. Dunno. Good question. I don't think I'm gonna stop ruminating on this element. Inidicative of good writing, to me, if you can't tie it up into a nice pretty easy bundle. ETA: I mean, if we are talking about these fictional characters as if they were real people, and debating "what the hell were they thinking?" rather than "What the hell was the writer thinking?" than the writers have done very well indeed. Oh, I always think about the writers when I'm trying to understand what they've done with the characters. Some times more than others, but it's always in the back of my mind: what are they trying to say? What's the message? Here's what I'm getting so far - subject to change since I'm going to watch the ep again when I can and it's always interersting getting differnt viewpoints here: Hera is the missing element that the Cylons need to become, like Pinocchio, "real" people. The way Sharon seems to be - love for Helo, love for Hera, love for Adama, love for the group whose acceptance (the uniform) she's worked so hard for. And Caprica Six feels it in (IMO) a kind of weird, twisted way. But the real human person Ellen, driven by that very same innate element, must be executed for acting on it. FRAK! I HATE these people! #blink# *stares in awe* That's freakin' amazing. Ellen getting executed for having in spades the same thing that the cylons need. Good point in looking at it from the "what are they trying to say" thing, though that may well have screwed up my ability to be "in the moment" for EVERY episode I ever watch from here on out. Nah. ;D *head hurts with ponderosity and multiple differing viewpoints* *tables pondering, goes off to watch movie*
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 12:51:00 GMT -5
Oh, I always think about the writers when I'm trying to understand what they've done with the characters. Some times more than others, but it's always in the back of my mind: what are they trying to say? What's the message? Here's what I'm getting so far - subject to change since I'm going to watch the ep again when I can and it's always interersting getting differnt viewpoints here: Hera is the missing element that the Cylons need to become, like Pinocchio, "real" people. The way Sharon seems to be - love for Helo, love for Hera, love for Adama, love for the group whose acceptance (the uniform) she's worked so hard for. And Caprica Six feels it in (IMO) a kind of weird, twisted way. But the real human person Ellen, driven by that very same innate element, must be executed for acting on it. FRAK! I HATE these people! *stares in awe* That's freakin' amazing. Ellen getting executed for having in spades the same thing that the cylons need. Good point in looking at it from the "what are they trying to say" thing, though that may well have screwed up my ability to be "in the moment" for EVERY episode I ever watch from here on out. Nah. ;D *head hurts with ponderosity and multiple differing viewpoints* *tables pondering, goes off to watch movie* Heh. Thinking about the writing and the message comes AFTER watching and should in no way impact the initial viewing experience., i.e., the adrenaline rushes and the yelling at the screen, etc. At least it doesn't for me.
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Post by rich on Oct 22, 2006 13:48:20 GMT -5
Interesting points you guys; I'm still ruminating. Another thought occurs to me: Sharon. Sharon SHOT ADAMA. But she's been living aboard Galactica and apparently accepted enough to not only be sent by Adama to coordinate the rescue mission, but married Helo. Oh, and: Actual Cylon. My point being: How is Ellen less acceptable? It boils down to trust and military necessity. Adama made a military decision to trust Sharon (not the Sharon model that shot him by the way) because she consistently put the interests of the Humans ahead of the Cylons and her own personal interests. Ellen demonstrated that she would always put personal interest, Saul's and her own, over the interests of the larger group. Because their plan was at a critical point, Anders and Saul made a military decision that Ellen could not be trusted and should be eliminated. Akira Kurosawa said it best through his character Shimada Kambei in The Seven Samurai: "Remember, that's War. You're all in one boat. Selfish people destroy themselves and others. I can't tolerate such selfishness."
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 14:28:49 GMT -5
Interesting points you guys; I'm still ruminating. Another thought occurs to me: Sharon. Sharon SHOT ADAMA. But she's been living aboard Galactica and apparently accepted enough to not only be sent by Adama to coordinate the rescue mission, but married Helo. Oh, and: Actual Cylon. My point being: How is Ellen less acceptable? It boils down to trust and military necessity. Adama made a military decision to trust Sharon (not the Sharon model that shot him by the way) because she consistently put the interests of the Humans ahead of the Cylons and her own personal interests. Ellen demonstrated that she would always put personal interest, Saul's and her own, over the interests of the larger group. Because their plan was at a critical point, Anders and Saul made a military decision that Ellen could not be trusted and should be eliminated. Akira Kurosawa said it best through his character Shimada Kambei in The Seven Samurai: "Remember, that's War. You're all in one boat. Selfish people destroy themselves and others. I can't tolerate such selfishness." That makes way too much sense but I still don't like it. I suppose the best place I can get with the decision to execute Ellen is "I understand but I disagree." Like Karen, I think there were other choices. I'm not looking forward to the military flavor that's probably going to be a large part of life aboard Galactica. I hope there will be some good stories coming out of the struggle NOT to become an entirely military society. They touched on that early on in the show but the New Caprica fiasco will have changed that.
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Post by rich on Oct 22, 2006 17:46:36 GMT -5
It boils down to trust and military necessity. Adama made a military decision to trust Sharon (not the Sharon model that shot him by the way) because she consistently put the interests of the Humans ahead of the Cylons and her own personal interests. Ellen demonstrated that she would always put personal interest, Saul's and her own, over the interests of the larger group. Because their plan was at a critical point, Anders and Saul made a military decision that Ellen could not be trusted and should be eliminated. Akira Kurosawa said it best through his character Shimada Kambei in The Seven Samurai: "Remember, that's War. You're all in one boat. Selfish people destroy themselves and others. I can't tolerate such selfishness." That makes way too much sense but I still don't like it. I suppose the best place I can get with the decision to execute Ellen is "I understand but I disagree." Like Karen, I think there were other choices. I'm not looking forward to the military flavor that's probably going to be a large part of life aboard Galactica. I hope there will be some good stories coming out of the struggle NOT to become an entirely military society. They touched on that early on in the show but the New Caprica fiasco will have changed that. Good point. While the New Caprica fiasco has probably caused the Cylons to give up the whole idea of getting the Humans to love them, (Getting hold of Hera changes their focus anyway) the Humans might just give up on Democracy and become a militaristic/theistic society.
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Post by Shan on Oct 22, 2006 19:13:48 GMT -5
That makes way too much sense but I still don't like it. I suppose the best place I can get with the decision to execute Ellen is "I understand but I disagree." Like Karen, I think there were other choices. I'm not looking forward to the military flavor that's probably going to be a large part of life aboard Galactica. I hope there will be some good stories coming out of the struggle NOT to become an entirely military society. They touched on that early on in the show but the New Caprica fiasco will have changed that. Good point. While the New Caprica fiasco has probably caused the Cylons to give up the whole idea of getting the Humans to love them, (Getting hold of Hera changes their focus anyway) the Humans might just give up on Democracy and become a militaristic/theistic society. Weird. My own instinctive reaction to "militaristic/theistic" says..."huh? But those things don't belong together!" And yet watching how we humans actually behave...? Yeah. Unfortunately. <edit> But I don't think Laura and Tom will let Democracy go unrepresented. They'll be noisy about it, too, even if they don't work together as I hope they do.
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Post by Spaced Out Looney on Oct 22, 2006 20:47:54 GMT -5
Rewatched today, and the one thing that stood out to me was Lucy Lawless mentioning the "humans' enslavement of the Cylons," referring to back in the day when the humans created the ToasterCylons and they subsequently rebelled. I don't think it's ever been referred to that way before. Begs the question of which side wronged who first and which side has wronged the other more, and suggests the idea of a continuing cycle of violence, like how the outcome of WWI lead to WWII, and the outcome of WWII lead to the Cold War, and events from the Cold War have lead to the current War on Terror.
Makes me think about Lucy Lawless suggesting that in the future, as soon as the humans are able, that they would go out and hunt down the Cylons until they exterminated them. So it's sort of turned into a "wolf by the ears" sort of situation.
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Post by rich on Oct 22, 2006 21:27:23 GMT -5
Rewatched today, and the one thing that stood out to me was Lucy Lawless mentioning the "humans' enslavement of the Cylons," referring to back in the day when the humans created the ToasterCylons and they subsequently rebelled. I don't think it's ever been referred to that way before. Begs the question of which side wronged who first and which side has wronged the other more, and suggests the idea of a continuing cycle of violence, like how the outcome of WWI lead to WWII, and the outcome of WWII lead to the Cold War, and events from the Cold War have lead to the current War on Terror. Makes me think about Lucy Lawless suggesting that in the future, as soon as the humans are able, that they would go out and hunt down the Cylons until they exterminated them. So it's sort of turned into a "wolf by the ears" sort of situation. Liz, it was that speech that made me think that the Cylons had given up on their experiment to try and bond with humans and would return to trying to exterminate them. Shan, I agree with you about Tom and that democracy will not go quietly. I think Laura has to decide if she means to be President or Oracle. Also, Mohammed was a brilliant military leader as well as a prophet.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 23, 2006 1:26:53 GMT -5
Rewatched today, and the one thing that stood out to me was Lucy Lawless mentioning the "humans' enslavement of the Cylons," referring to back in the day when the humans created the ToasterCylons and they subsequently rebelled. I don't think it's ever been referred to that way before. Begs the question of which side wronged who first and which side has wronged the other more, and suggests the idea of a continuing cycle of violence, like how the outcome of WWI lead to WWII, and the outcome of WWII lead to the Cold War, and events from the Cold War have lead to the current War on Terror. Makes me think about Lucy Lawless suggesting that in the future, as soon as the humans are able, that they would go out and hunt down the Cylons until they exterminated them. So it's sort of turned into a "wolf by the ears" sort of situation.Well, the red is pretty much human tendency: It's what the cylons tried to do, as soon as they were able, and the cylons are nothing if not human: even if they think they are missing a certain something, or a "spark" or whatever, they are still human, being the get of humans: subject to the same passions and drives. Particularly the humaniforms, the biomech raiders and heavy raiders, which appear to be a bit more complex than the ordinary toasters (centurions) are allowed to be. And since we judge people by our own standards, the cylons figured that the humans would raise their children for revenge... and Three wasn't mistaken. I don't think, leastwise. No way they could just "up and leave" and have happily-ever-after peace: not at that point. Probably never: even if the Cylons hadn't arrived, and New Caprica had escaped Baltar's presidency, the human race would have thrived: it was a pretty place outside of the crappy-ass tent city. They would have raised their children on stories of betrayal by trusted servants, of stabs in the back, of flight from home with nothing, of death upon death, of harried pursuit. Stories of obscene mockeries of humanity. History would have been edited a little bit to gloss over the creation of the cylons as slave killing-machines. Again, human nature. The alien, the outsider, the auslander, the sassenach is always the bad guy. (Or occasionally, if he's outnumbered, the comic relief.) Three was right, and you're right: though that Three may have been converted over to Caprica Six and Eight's viewpoint by finding Hera, believing that the two could be blended still. Dunno. I wish we knew how the humaniform cylons were different. The only thing that makes sense to me is that their bloodstreams and bodies are swimming with wi-fi nanites of some sort or another that are superior at repairing cellular damage. And glowing up the spine when they get a happy. That every cell of their being contains components of their computerized nature: how Sharon Agathon was able to interface with both the heavy Raider brain and the comp system on Galactica through a shunt into a vein. AAAARRRGH!!! Anyways, we know that the humans and the humaniform cylons are fertile with each other: and Helo said something to Dee about "watching our kid" if we don't make it: made me think that he and Sharon might have spawned again. The Cylon... genome? code? Whatthehellever? is gonna get incorporated into the human genome, at least that way, and I think that there are maybe a couple more "sleeper" models we haven't seen yet.. *eagerly wants to know more more more more*
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Post by Shan on Oct 23, 2006 10:23:01 GMT -5
Rewatched today, and the one thing that stood out to me was Lucy Lawless mentioning the "humans' enslavement of the Cylons," referring to back in the day when the humans created the ToasterCylons and they subsequently rebelled. I don't think it's ever been referred to that way before. Begs the question of which side wronged who first and which side has wronged the other more, and suggests the idea of a continuing cycle of violence, like how the outcome of WWI lead to WWII, and the outcome of WWII lead to the Cold War, and events from the Cold War have lead to the current War on Terror. Makes me think about Lucy Lawless suggesting that in the future, as soon as the humans are able, that they would go out and hunt down the Cylons until they exterminated them. So it's sort of turned into a "wolf by the ears" sort of situation. Speaking of "wolf by the ears" you've made me wonder again (I think I mentioned it long ago) what the skinjobs have done to modify the toaster-jobs so that THEY don't rebel? <edit> I mean, aren't the current toasters just as enslaved to the skinjobs as the original toasters were to the humans?
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Post by rich on Oct 23, 2006 10:52:06 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree that the cylons are human, sentient beings yes, but not human. I do think that the cylons would agree with Matthew that they are "nothing if not human". They seem to have a bit of an inferiority complex, feeling they need to take from the human condition to "complete" themselves. It seems to me that they've got their own existential dilemna (What does it mean to be Cylon?) and they're ducking it. Perhaps they're afraid that deep down they are "nothing?"
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Post by Shan on Oct 23, 2006 11:23:38 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree that the cylons are human, sentient beings yes, but not human. I do think that the cylons would agree with Matthew that they are "nothing if not human". They seem to have a bit of an inferiority complex, feeling they need to take from the human condition to "complete" themselves. It seems to me that they've got their own existential dilemna (What does it mean to be Cylon?) and they're ducking it. Perhaps they're afraid that deep down they are "nothing?" I also think they're very human-childish (but I agree: not human) in that they continue to define themselves by their "parents" rather than by independently seeking their own identities. For instance: Like human children, first the Cylons rebelled against the humans - okay, rather more severely than human children do when they are early-on trying to define themselves as "NOT MY MOM/DAD" and go get purple hair and nose rings (or go conservative like Alex Keaton did on his ex-hippie "Family Ties" parents). <edit> And I think New Caprica has partly been about another stage but I can't put my thoughts in order just now.
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Post by Matthew on Oct 23, 2006 12:42:11 GMT -5
I respectfully disagree that the cylons are human, sentient beings yes, but not human. I do think that the cylons would agree with Matthew that they are "nothing if not human". They seem to have a bit of an inferiority complex, feeling they need to take from the human condition to "complete" themselves. It seems to me that they've got their own existential dilemna (What does it mean to be Cylon?) and they're ducking it. Perhaps they're afraid that deep down they are "nothing?" Ah! That was one of the things I meant to bring up, but forgot about: that there are only twelve variants of the humaniform cylons: there's not a lot of variation in either what they started out with biologically, or very likely, in their experiences, to cause them to be able to solve their existential crisis: they are very inexperienced, as well. The ones that have spent the most time interacting with humans: Sharon Valeri,(Caprica Eight) Sharon Agathon, and Caprica Six, are individuating from the others: gaining their own personalities, feeling love, expressing themselves, being stubborn as hell about it. I agree that they are very child-like in their basic makeup: but I think that the are human children, still. I think that their cybernetic nature (whatever the hell it is) is not nearly as strong an influence on them as the templates they are based/based themselves off of, biologically: humans. I think their existential rift is in trying their damndest not to be as chaotic and emotional and frakked up as their progenitors were, and yet still work out WHY they exist, and what they are, when they have cause to think about it: apparently most of the humaniforms that only deal with other humaniforms don't ever have cause to think about it.
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