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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:36:39 GMT -5
And we even got to SEE his reaction to finding out on screen! Amazing. Michelle Belle
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:37:22 GMT -5
Betsy says about Andrew coming to Angel: "Okay then can bring Andrew over. That would add some estrogen to the show. " Hee. Besty made me laugh! La la la . . . Actually, I am hoping we see Andrew again - maybe guest shots or something.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:38:32 GMT -5
Michelle said: //and we got to see his reaction on screen// yeah, but wasn't it seriously understated? I've been busy all day. My own fault--stuff I put off. I've read a few posts, kind of randomly and just happened to catch your # (434, I think)--on female empowerment--and my name was in it! Kismet! I've got lots and lots more thoughts, but I'm going to have to fix dinner then choose between reading and writing. At least I know if it takes me until Sat. there will still be folks reading. I am, however, like you still having random "moments"--rewatched the ep and cried a totally different times, then cried at your post. Sorry, leaving now until I can get my thoughts more organized. Sue P
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:39:22 GMT -5
Anyone know where there are pics posted from last nite's episode. My local paper - The Seattle PI - had some, but not the one I'm looking for. I'm looking for a pic of where Spike is shiny and effulgent. Betsy Lusby
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:39:46 GMT -5
My opinion: Of *course* Spike and Buffy did it in the basement. Can you think for more than a moment that Buffy asked for a second "just hold me" moment from Spike? She is no longer needy or alone. She's ready to face a major battle in the morning. She knows Spike is in love with her but he's told her he doesn't need her to love him back that way. Remember, Buffy told Spike that Faith still had her room. Why would Buffy have told Spike that her room wasn't available if she only meant for them to rest together with their clothes on. The rest of the crowd had long since understood Buffy and Spike were a couple of sorts, so Buffy wasn't trying to hide her relationship with him anymore. She was asking him if it would be okay for them to "do it" and that's why he said he had his pride. Why would he have said the pride thing if she merely wanted him to just hold her? It's also why he quickly relented when he saw she was accepting his rejection of her request for sex. He told her the pride thing was just a smoke screen and she said, "Thank God." Spike told her he didn't know what he would have done if she'd walked up those stairs and she reached out and touched his face. They both looked at each other, knowing they were finally in accord and at peace with each other's feelings - and that meant they could enjoy each other physically again. They both wanted that. They were dressed again when we saw them next probably because the basement is not a secluded place and neither one of them wanted to wake up with curious SITs staring down at them in their birthday suits. The basement was probably also somewhat cold for Buffy when they weren't involved in any warming activities. Spike wouldn't have been able to keep Buffy warm with his body heat. I think they finally mutually made love for the first time. Oh yes, I think they did it.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:40:06 GMT -5
I just can't pull myself out of the doldrums. It was all too fast and the survivors were way too cheerful at the end. That invalidated the significance of the deaths for me. I've seen survivors an sure they're happy to have made it, but they also have Andrew's angst and the question 'Why did I make it and he/she/they didn't?' Joss tone for the whole ep was very retro, amusing but I thought we'd moved beyond that. It came off like pandering. And somehow it cheapened it for me. Made Spike's death less meaningful. Someone once said that Cynicism is the refuge of the true romantic. I confess, I am living proof that that is true. I knew that Joss would break my heart. I thought it would be by death, but I didn't think it would be by a big flaming, double dip cone of empowerment. Buffy empowered to move on, Spike empowered to accept being unloved while giving it all up to save humanity. It made me want to heave. I don't want to get into the arguments about Spike's death toll. His redemption vs. the lug nut's. I have my feelings and I'm stickin' to them. Spike was the only person who ever really 'got' Buffy, empowered or unimpowered and all Scoobies included. She never ever 'got' him, even at the end. He's the only one who would have let her be whatever she wanted to be. In the end, Buffy not only didn't love him, she didn't deserve him.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:47:23 GMT -5
You've completely persuaded me, Alexandra (re S/B non-chaste interlude in basement). And I'm much the happier for it! Thanks! Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:47:50 GMT -5
P.S.Just wanted to clarify that I'm not against empowerment. Sharing the Slayer power was a really great gesture and device.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:48:21 GMT -5
Rusty said, In the end, Buffy not only didn't love him, she didn't deserve him. Ah, but she never has. Just as Catherine never deserved Vincent (B&B fans would now pelt me with ancient rutabagas). I've been thinking about much this same concept in fictional terms. Haven't yet got the story to put it into, but it involves a scene in which Spike tries to explain to Dawn what it means to love somebody who's "for" something: somebody with a mission. For that person (Buffy, for simplicity's sake) #1 is the mission #2 is Buffy for the mission, i.e. the Slayer #3 is Significant Other #4 is Buffy herself--all the rest of her life and personality not directly involved in her Slayerness. So the best Spike could possibly come in Buffy's priorities is third. And I don't believe he'd have any least trouble with that. By contrast, Spike's priorities would look something like this: #1 is Buffy for the mission/Slayer #2 is Buffy herself #3 is mission #4 is Spike himself If you are #4 in your own priorities, there's a kind of peace in that--knowing where you stand and knowing what you're *for*--that I think Spike would actually find comforting. Once he had a secure place in somebody else's love, I think much of his exhibitionism and rampant egotism would not matter to him anymore. Would no longer be meaningful or worthwhile. He would find his satisfactions and validations in other ways.... Anyway, only a thought. Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:48:40 GMT -5
When Buffy told Spike she loved him, she was telling the truth. And Spike was telling her she didn't love him and he was telling the truth too. As many have said, Buffy loved Spike but she wasn't 'in love' with him. I think the subtext for both of them was Buffy telling Spike he was accepted and loved and one of the few she ever let into her heart. Spike was telling Buffy that she didn't love him the way he wanted her to, but what she offered was accepted with thanks. His love was no longer painful for him or uncomfortable for her. They had come to an accord in the basement. He clearly wanted her to be in love with him, but it wasn't his major focus any more and hadn't been for awhile. He recognized she was trying to give him the love she was able to give him in their final scene. It released him to really be her "champion." I think he was happy.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:49:32 GMT -5
toward both guys in the end Spring said" //Yes, yes, and yes. Both Angel & Spike are in her heart, and she left all her options open with both of them (of course, she didn't know Spike was going to dust, or come back). No matter what the hardest core B/A or B/S shippers may have to say, I'm with you on this . . . she left both those guys in the exact same spot, and had basically the same feelings toward each of them.// I don't understand, Spring. Are you saying that Spike's declaration that Buffy really didn't love him was a misunderstanding on his part? deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:50:07 GMT -5
I haven't finished reading the other posts so I don't know what other people have told you, but season 2 of Angel is available in Australia on DVD. Therefore it has been made.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:50:31 GMT -5
Well Alexandra- You've convinced me *course I kinda wanted to be convinced* Seriously you make a powerful case for the Buffy and Spike in terms of their mutual adult acceptance of one another's reality. and Caleb(the First) did call Spike "her dead lover" without appending "ex"- ellie
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:50:55 GMT -5
You echoed my own feelings about Spike's ending perfectly. Okay, my bitter rant (#357) was more about the unsatisfactory resolution of Buffy's feelings for Spike but I also wrote about my pain at the failure of the ending to grant Spike a reconciliation with Dawn, to include some acknowledgement by Xander to Spike that he recognized how far he'd come from the 'Evil-Dead' he'd thought of Spike as for so long (not that there wearn't subtle signs that Xander's attitute towards Spike had softened ever since "Sleeper" when he asked Buffy if Spike was in trouble rather than causing it- but it wasn't enough. He never told Spike.) I wanted, if not some words of appreciation, tribute or mourning from the Scoobies then at least a reaction shot at learning it was Spike who saved the world. I was left wanting. Your post put all those uncomfortable, painful feelings into a form that I want to save so I will have an articulate record of how I felt, even though it wasn't me who said it. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:52:00 GMT -5
RE Angel learning about Spike's soul Michelle said: //And we even got to SEE his reaction to finding out on screen! Amazing.// What I found surprising was Angel's total lack of surprise or curiousity at this amazing revelation. His only reaction was petulance. Not that the petulance wasn't a welcome comic relief and a perfect balance for Spike's own later on. But he sure took the news in stride, didn't he? deborah cohen
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