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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:52:32 GMT -5
I cried when I wrote that post and for two flippin' hours afterward. I wanted ONCE some acknowledgement from the Scoobies and there was NOTHING. Not even when Buffy told them what Spike had done. NOTHING. I DO think that Spike was happy with his fate in the end, but I just wanted that for him so much - so damn much. Mary, still not dealing with this issue well at all
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:53:07 GMT -5
Alexandra thinks: //My opinion: Of *course* Spike and Buffy did it in the basement.// I wish I could agree with you. But I just didn't read it that way. Maybe the brief scene of the next night when they are shown walking towards each other in the basement before fading out, maybe that scene was intended, as Spring suggested earlier, to be open to interpretation; a ploy that felt very much like a cop out to me. If it was a crumb meant to satisfy S/B shippers it didn't work for me- not without a single kiss between them (ala B/A) to hang my hopes on. The fact that Buffy kissed Angel, never kissed Spike, and that Spike recognized that Buffy didn't really love him (romantically) in the end, pretty much leads me away from believing they could have made love again before the end. But then, we all know how negative I am. But Alexandra, gotta say, it did my heart good to 'hear' you say you believed otherwise. deborah cohen
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:53:33 GMT -5
Rusty said: //Buffy empowered to move on, Spike empowered to accept being unloved while giving it all up to save humanity. It made me want to heave. I don't want to get into the arguments about Spike's death toll. His redemption vs. the lug nut's. I have my feelings and I'm stickin' to them. Spike was the only person who ever really 'got' Buffy, empowered or unimpowered and all Scoobies included. She never ever 'got' him, even at the end. He's the only one who would have let her be whatever she wanted to be. In the end, Buffy not only didn't love him, she didn't deserve him.// And for that, I thank her. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:53:58 GMT -5
What I meant is that I thank Rusty for her post, not Buffy for never getting or deserving Spike. deborah
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:54:20 GMT -5
Deborah, Thanks for clearing that up, and thanks for not letting me be one of a eensy minority of about four.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:55:06 GMT -5
//Anyway, only a thought.// And a good one. The only problem Spike would have is another man (like Angel) occupying a higher number than he does. Simetimes i write the bit i like and then build both ways from the middle. (Not that I'm in your league). Love to read it when you do it.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:55:44 GMT -5
Rusty said, The only problem Spike would have is another man (like Angel) occupying a higher number than he does. I absolutely agree with you. But I think like Xander, he wouldn't mind at all being down the list behind the Mission and the Slayer, so long as he felt he came "first" above all other guys on his sweetie's own list of priorities. Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:56:06 GMT -5
Ah, but she never has. Just as Catherine never deserved Vincent (B&B fans would now pelt me with ancient rutabagas). Rusty, Nan, NEITHER of you are getting it. Lots of people who "deserve" love never get it and vice-versa. Love isn't about who "deserves" it or who doesn't. We love because we love. We may or may not get some say in the matter (that's open to question and I'm not delving into it here.) What Vincent knew and Spike learned is that it's the loving that matters, not the "getting" or "deserving" of it. It isn't a transaction, it's a gift, a gift of ourselves that we give to someone else.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:56:35 GMT -5
Deborah, I went back and found your post. Very well said.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:57:01 GMT -5
Agree with you, Diane. I was just replying to Rusty's contention that Buffy didn't deserve Spike's love. She doesn't. But she has it anyway and deals with it reasonably well in S7, if not in S6. It's very disconcerting to be loved by somebody you don't love, but like a lot. I know from first-hand experience. It's hard not to abuse their vulnerabilities if they don't take the first NO for an answer and just hang around, loving you.... Nan
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:57:55 GMT -5
We're also capable of denying we love because we have an inferiority/superiority complex.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 13, 2004 23:58:15 GMT -5
I'm rewatching the ep and a commercial advwertising UPN news after Buffy showed SMG making a comment. Did somebody hear it?
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Post by Dalton on Apr 14, 2004 0:00:19 GMT -5
(After re-viewing 3 times and sleep) Having two open 'Parts' is very confusing I think. I am posting here, but I already posted it in the next part also. I went over there to read and post but everyone is still posting here too and now I'm so many pages behind I will never catch up. This is very frustrating, what with this being the finale. Anyway, here are my thoughts for what they are worth. I have now watched 'Chosen' in its entirety 3 times. Guess what? Still crying each time, but for different reasons. I've watched the Buffy/Angel sequence 6 times, the Buffy/Spike sequences in the basement about 7 times, Spike's death scene four times, the rest, 3 times. (Sue, enjoy the numbers!:-} ) I LOVE the Buffy-Angel sequence. It seems just right, the characters interact as they 'should' to me. I think the scene with Angel is as much of a gift to Spike lovers as to Angel lovers. (As I've said, I love them both, just not equally...) Angel's reaction to Spike's soul is the second best laugh I get in the whole episode. When Angel says 'he's not your boyfriend?' Buffy says 'He is...in my HEART.' (I choose to hear that as meaning 'he's my boyfriend in my heart'. You feel free to hear it however you choose. This episode is all about choice, you know. I love the cocokie dough thing, and how uncomfortable Angel is with it. That was very Angel. I love Angel assuming HE is to wear the amulet, and Buffy instead giving it to Spike. (And I choose not to believe she did it cause Spike's expendable, she did it because Spike is her Champion.) Last week, Buffy told Spike 'maybe, when this is over...' and he stopped her and said 'Let's go be heroes.' This week, Buffy told Angel that maybe, years from now, and no promises...and Angel said 'I'm not getting any older.' Buffy is clearly half-baked. So half-baked. Let's see...why do I love the scenes in the basement with Spike? Because...they are perfect? Oh yeah, that's why. Spike pummeling the 'Angelface' he's pinning on the bag. (Notice the bringer eyes on the thing? Too funny.) 'He wears lifts' 'maybe there could be oil' Spike's tongue comment, and re-thinking 'you have Angelbreath' 'I don't know what I'd have done if you'd gone up those stairs' the look in their eyes and Buffy caressing Spike's cheek 'I'm drowning in footwear' (I'm now of the 'Spike dreaming of life with Buffy' point of view) the shot of Spike and Buffy facing each other in the basement, on the NEXT night...and I'm not so sure the clothes stayed on that night. That was a fill-the-blank-with-the-action-of-your-choice moment. Spike's death scene - ok, beautiful, heroic, redemptive, sacrificey, unconditional love, special effects, acting superb - Spike still dead, Patti still crying. Does Buffy NOT love him? Don't know about you others, but if I didn't love a guy, I wouldn't look into his eyes the way she did, and caress his cheek like that, and laugh with him and open up to him emtionally more than to any other person and choose to sleep in his arms the last 3 nights of my possible life, but that's just me... I think she loved him. Why did he not accept that statement of love? Was it a statement from Joss - so we know that Spike's sacrifce was unconditional? That his redemption was complete? If so, it is the first time I couldn't believe James Marsters...I have known what he was saying (I think) in every scene he's been in but this one - this puzzles me. Maybe it is outside my life experience and I can't relate. I just see Buffy slipping her hand in his hand, see their hands burning together and she smiles, like she knows something, but I don't know what she's thinking...and then she 'says it' and he's been gently pushing her to say it all season (well, twice, in 'First Date' and 'End of Days') but when she does, he doesn't believe her. Still not getting the need for that, EXCEPT... Spike is going to be alive next season, and Buffy may turn up, and they certainly can't be alive and in love because they would be together, and they clearly aren't going to be. I think this is the real reason Spike doesn't believe her. It is necessary that he doesn't. I am therefore disappointed in Joss in this aspect. I've believed him almost always. But this looks like a device to me. other stuff, clearly of secondary importance to me than the SPIKE story, but still important Willow has been lurking on the boards! She knows we hate the tongue stud! Too funny...Joss is so evil. He knew we'd hate it when it was put in the script. He did it to annoy. I loved it. I also loved Dawn's 'getting it' and everyone's rush to change the subject. Andrew's 'shout out' to his brother...and that whole list he didn't get to read. OH I loved that! I really liked the CGI show of Sunnydale falling into the earth and the bus racing away. That was coooool. I liked Buffy's racetop run to catch the bus. I loved the SITS for the first and only time ever. I hated seeing Amanda die. I liked her all along. I even didn't hate Kennedy. But I was manipulated into not hating her. I hate that. The Willow spell was shortchanged, just as everything dealing with the core Scoobies was. I didn't need 2 long scenes with Faith and Wood. I like Faith, didn't need her taking up so much time this episode. Didn't need Wood taking one second. Still don't like Wood, although it was fun seeing him deal with Faith's attitude at the school. Anya deserved to AT LEAST get pulled out of the school to die in Xander's arms. That was a little too real for me. And Xander joking about it was just WRONG. I don't think he would have. quip not needed there. What is this MALL fixation the group has developed? NEVER has shopping been what the Scoobies have been about. Why didn't they mourn the Bronze instead? That would have made sense. They could have quipped about no more 'roach killing' parties or something. That road scene was flat to me. I think Joss couldn't handle any more of his own emotion and pulled away at the end. No group HUG? My gosh....was Joss really showing us the actual dynamics in the group there? Michelle and James the only two who can stand Sarah anymore? I'm sure I've left out my FAVORITE part, or the part I really HATED and will have to say 'oh yeah, me too!' later when someone mentions it, but at least this is most of my major thoughts. Last - why am I still breaking into tears over this episode? Because we are going to be writing stories, and talking about what we think they'll do in the future, and loving the past but we'll never ever again know what's coming next. There is no 'coming next' for this group as a group. Unless they appear on Angel, this is probably all we will 'know' of our friends and it wasn't enough. It would never be enough.
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Post by Dalton on Apr 14, 2004 0:00:46 GMT -5
I think all the cool kids have moved to the upstairs thread. Maybe it's time to join them?
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Post by Dalton on Apr 14, 2004 0:01:09 GMT -5
I've listened to Spike's words several times now. It sounds close to "footwear" but it doesn't really sound exactly like footwear. It could also sound like Bulwer - maybe a reference to Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, a second-rate poet and novelist (born Edward Bulwer) who lived from 1803-1873 and is most notable for the opening line of his novel,"Paul Clifford": "It was a dark and stormy night..." Was Spike dreaming of another countryman who was also a less than distinguished poet? Bulwer-Lytton is best-known for his run-on sentences - maybe *that* was why Spike was "drowning in Bulwer" in his sleep. BtVS abounds in obscure literary references and this is about as obscure as one can get.
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