|
Post by RAKSHA on Nov 8, 2003 0:08:59 GMT -5
For what it is worth, I do not think that Angel is all that bad about sharing power. Spike is an exception to the rule but Angel shares powers with the others just fine. If he is being somewhat defensive in areas concerning Spike, it may have more to do with the fact that moving to W&H HAS taken away some of his purpose. Fred, Wesley, Gunn, and Lorne have their own departments to run. They actively participate in all that is going on around them in those departments. True, Angel is running the whole show...but he has extremely good managers working for him so he doesn't have to technically do much. As we saw in the first episode, he even has employees who don't want him out in the field, participating in the action. His role with the group has shifted and, as anyone who has to get used to a new job, he's not feeling all that secure and comfortable with it yet. Not to mention... the evilness of W&H and the questioning of the decision to take it over. Soooo... along comes Spike who is being a snarky lil' punk. Granted, he's got his own issues but it is not like he's cuttin' Angel any slack either. AND, in this last ep, even though Spike gleefully tries to spread false rumors about Angel attacking $5, Angel merely shrugs it off. I think we are clearly seeing that Angel has softened towards him. It doesn't mean he's all... "I love you, man. You are the reason Buffy lives to bake her dough another day. Give a man a hug!" I'd be suffering from serious whiplash if Angel suddenly went skipping down the hall, arm in arm with Spike. Edit: Oh yeah, great review per usual, Nan! In the past, when Angel was the boss or central figure in ANGEL INVESTIGATIONS, he didn't mind sharing power because he trusted Doyle, Cordy, Wesley, Gunn and Fred totally. But as CEO of W&H, he doesn't even know many of the people to whom decision-making power has been delegated, and that bothers him. Angel is a hands-on kind of guy. Also, he's used to being a hero, not a CEO; and he hasn't taken a magical crash course in corporate executive politics. (Charles, what were you thinking?)
Good point about Spike being a snarky irritating brat towards Angel. In Spike's defense, I think he might have managed to be slightly less snarky towards Angel had Angel welcomed him with more enthusiasm (i.e. at all) when Spike first reappeared as a confused and scared ghost. Or if Angel had promised right off the bat that they would help Spike. But I also think some of Spike's snarkiness towards Angel comes from witnessing Buffy and Angel's "basking" in the cave in CHOSEN, not to mention considerable time spent watching Angelus and Drusilla carry on in front of Spike's jealous eyes.
I dunno, watching Angel skip down the hall arm in arm with Spike would be a lot of fun. Watch Gunn and Wes' jaws drop. See what the Soul-Vamps do next....
GAIL ;D
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 8, 2003 2:50:20 GMT -5
Actually, I think "our boys" are mirrors of each other:
Spike feels alienated, anomic, disconnected - from his body and the material world, from Buffy (and, I am sure, Dawn). He can't (as we've been joking today) eat, drink, smoke, smell, touch, pick up a 2x4 and hit a demon, even diddle. He's not connected TO the world. He doesn't have the support system (Buffy and the Scoobies) to help him, as he did last year when he was newly ensouled. (And the Scoobies DID help him.)
His only connections to the world are his will, his mouth, his ears, and his brain - all of which he uses to snark. He has an incipient connection with Fred, who is his #1 supporter in L.A. Gunn clearly doesn't like him. Wes tolerates him (probably because of his uniqueness). Angel tolerates him when's he's in a good mood; when he's Capt. Dreary, he's not so tolerant.
Spike is also experiencing anomie - that restlessness that comes from not knowing what's expected of him in a particular situation. How is he supposed to act? What part is he supposed to be playing? He is also trying to figure out how to corporealize; how to play some kind of useful role amongst the group in which he now finds himself.
Angel is disconnected, too. His pain over Connor and Cordy, over what he now sees as the entire Team Angel's "undawning", is killing him. He's distancing himself from his support system (the FG). He's making decisions (like turning the car on a dime.) without any explanation or exposition. He walks away from people when they are talking with him. And by people, I mean the people who are his family: Gunn, Wes, Fred, Spike.
The people he is most THERE for are strangers - #5, Werewolf Girl. Why? Because the strangers are safer. There aren't any secrets he might divulge - such as he almost did with Wes on Wednesday. His support system, he senses (maybe he knows) could very easily be his undoing. He can open his heart (that gnarled up piece of beef jerky) to an old, disconnected, disheartened hero, but it's much harder to open up to his family. He's bottled up (sex with Eve notwithstanding, and, no, I am NOT gonna go there!); he's contained; he's goddamn scared, almost rigid with dread that his secrets will be discovered.
He needs his support system - desperately. It's an interesting dynamic --- his pushing them away reflects his need to keep them near. He needs, strangely enough, to connect with Spike. And vice-versa. They each need to connect with each other to connect with themselves. Spike needs Angel's affirmation; no Lord Disdain need apply. Angel needs Spike's respect; no Lord Snark need apply. They complement each other, and this is becoming more clear with each episode.
Angelus: Lacks poetry. Spike: It's the poetry. Angel: Never listening. Spike: Always interrupting. (or is it the reverse?) Angel: no words, just ignores Gunn's question on Wednesday's ep and walks away. Spike: It's the scent of blood. Spike is not Angel's interpreter; he's his translator. Angel: Always thinking, reflecting. Liam: Doesn't like to think or reflect. William: Thinks all the time; never "does". Spike: Always doing; doesn't like to "think". Angel: Surrounded by lush rewards, in despair. Spike: Hopeful, and he doesn't even have a body! Angel: Frustrated, he wants to do more "hands-on" fighting. Spike: Frustrated, he wants to be able to hit SOMETHING.
As has been elaborated on since the beginning of Season 5, they need each other; they complement each other. They need to work out enough of their "issues" to move on and begin the complex and scary process of healing and working together. Because together, these two are invincible, in body as well as mind. W&H doesn't stand a chance if the New Team Angel can work together.
Ah, SandyS - remember our conversation a few days ago? Listen very carefully.... to the sound... of a fan... falling... falling... falling....Shhhh. Can't you hear it?
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 8, 2003 3:27:55 GMT -5
Actually, I think "our boys" are mirrors of each other: Spike feels alienated, anomic, disconnected - from his body and the material world, from Buffy (and, I am sure, Dawn). He can't (as we've been joking today) eat, drink, smoke, smell, touch, pick up a 2x4 and hit a demon, even diddle. He's not connected TO the world. He doesn't have the support system (Buffy and the Scoobies) to help him, as he did last year when he was newly ensouled. (And the Scoobies DID help him.) His only connections to the world are his will, his mouth, his ears, and his brain - all of which he uses to snark. He has an incipient connection with Fred, who is his #1 supporter in L.A. Gunn clearly doesn't like him. Wes tolerates him (probably because of his uniqueness). Angel tolerates him when's he's in a good mood; when he's Capt. Dreary, he's not so tolerant. Spike is also experiencing anomie - that restlessness that comes from not knowing what's expected of him in a particular situation. How is he supposed to act? What part is he supposed to be playing? He is also trying to figure out how to corporealize; how to play some kind of useful role amongst the group in which he now finds himself. Angel is disconnected, too. His pain over Connor and Cordy, over what he now sees as the entire Team Angel's "undawning", is killing him. He's distancing himself from his support system (the FG). He's making decisions (like turning the car on a dime.) without any explanation or exposition. He walks away from people when they are talking with him. And by people, I mean the people who are his family: Gunn, Wes, Fred, Spike. The people he is most THERE for are strangers - #5, Werewolf Girl. Why? Because the strangers are safer. There aren't any secrets he might divulge - such as he almost did with Wes on Wednesday. His support system, he senses (maybe he knows) could very easily be his undoing. He can open his heart (that gnarled up piece of beef jerky) to an old, disconnected, disheartened hero, but it's much harder to open up to his family. He's bottled up (sex with Eve notwithstanding, and, no, I am NOT gonna go there!); he's contained; he's goddamn scared, almost rigid with dread that his secrets will be discovered. He needs his support system - desperately. It's an interesting dynamic --- his pushing them away reflects his need to keep them near. He needs, strangely enough, to connect with Spike. And vice-versa. They each need to connect with each other to connect with themselves. Spike needs Angel's affirmation; no Lord Disdain need apply. Angel needs Spike's respect; no Lord Snark need apply. They complement each other, and this is becoming more clear with each episode. Angelus: Lacks poetry. Spike: It's the poetry. Angel: Never listening. Spike: Always interrupting. (or is it the reverse?) Angel: no words, just ignores Gunn's question on Wednesday's ep and walks away. Spike: It's the scent of blood. Spike is not Angel's interpreter; he's his translator. Angel: Always thinking, reflecting. Liam: Doesn't like to think or reflect. William: Thinks all the time; never "does". Spike: Always doing; doesn't like to "think". Angel: Surrounded by lush rewards, in despair. Spike: Hopeful, and he doesn't even have a body! Angel: Frustrated, he wants to do more "hands-on" fighting. Spike: Frustrated, he wants to be able to hit SOMETHING. As has been elaborated on since the beginning of Season 5, they need each other; they complement each other. They need to work out enough of their "issues" to move on and begin the complex and scary process of healing and working together. Because together, these two are invincible, in body as well as mind. W&H doesn't stand a chance if the New Team Angel can work together. Ah, SandyS - remember our conversation a few days ago? Listen very carefully.... to the sound... of a fan... falling... falling... falling....Shhhh. Can't you hear it? I think you're right here, Makd. I don't quite succeed, myself, in putting these insights together--it's been that sort of a week--but they ring true and resonate for me. I'll keep shuffling them around until they come together properly--entirely the fault of my own fuzzyheadedness, not the fault of your analysis.
|
|
|
Post by Lancew on Nov 8, 2003 8:31:20 GMT -5
I thought this ep was well written but directed quite dreadfully hence the boredom some people experienced. I really wanted Cinco to take the mask off too. Great review, Nan. I can't believe so many people on other boards thought this ep was boring. They need to read your review and look deeper. The mano a mano scenes with El Cinco & Angel were very reminiscent of Mulder & any one of several informants on X-Files. I wish I had watched Angel from the beginning. Too bad TNT didn't start airing the past seasons in the summer. I have read all the episode synopsis--don't know the plural--so that helps. At least I'm not totally lost when they start talking about prophecies. When El Cinco made the remark about is it "too much to honor those who died" I thought of Fred showing Spike some honor for closing the hellmouth and saving her life. I still want Angel to give Spike some praise for those actions.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 11:07:20 GMT -5
Actually, I think "our boys" are mirrors of each other: <snip> As has been elaborated on since the beginning of Season 5, they need each other; they complement each other. They need to work out enough of their "issues" to move on and begin the complex and scary process of healing and working together. Because together, these two are invincible, in body as well as mind. W&H doesn't stand a chance if the New Team Angel can work together. Ah, SandyS - remember our conversation a few days ago? Listen very carefully.... to the sound... of a fan... falling... falling... falling....Shhhh. Can't you hear it? Oh, yes makd - I know exactly what you mean. I could *feel* it in this episode. Anticipation. I can hardly wait. I love that fan analogy. I loved your reference to Spike and Angel mirroring each other. Ironic, because they as vampires, can't see their own reflections in a mirror. I wonder what the trigger will be that will lead to their connection. I'm thinking it's got to be explosive. Wednesday is sooo far away....
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 8, 2003 16:42:19 GMT -5
Oh, yes makd - I know exactly what you mean. I could *feel* it in this episode. Anticipation. I can hardly wait. I love that fan analogy. I loved your reference to Spike and Angel mirroring each other. Ironic, because they as vampires, can't see their own reflections in a mirror. I wonder what the trigger will be that will lead to their connection. I'm thinking it's got to be explosive. Wednesday is sooo far away.... Couple things: In conversation with Gil (My Own Private Spike) today about Angel, I learned that in Mexico, the luchadores are not just the big athletes/celebrities/stars that I knew they were. They are also vigilantes! Seems that, at the beginning of the 20th century, Mexico was characterized by anarchy and legal chaos. So Mexicans created vigilantes who would rid the populace of evil people, criminals, who were out to exploit them or harm them. The luchadores (fighters) were the biggest and strongest, so they would wrestle for $ and help the helpless(??!!) outside the ring. To protect themselves from the bad guys, they began to wear masks. And they never took the masks off. It signified that they were fighters for the honor of the people and the protection of the people, and, when they doffed their masks, it gave them protection from the bad guys. Also - #5 told Angel that HE (Angel) would be wearing a mask in a cemetery. Was that a prophecy? Is he fore-telling? I think there are gonna be a couple of fireworky-type explosions that will bring the guys to a truce and to working together. I think the link maybe Spike as grandchilde - a substitution for Connor. Angel has some nurturing desires that were clearly in evidence at the end of The Life of the Party. Does that paragraph belong here? It's my speculation, so it should be okay. Or do we have a speculation thread where it should be? Let me know, ok?
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 8, 2003 16:43:15 GMT -5
Oh, yes makd - I know exactly what you mean. I could *feel* it in this episode. Anticipation. I can hardly wait. I love that fan analogy. I loved your reference to Spike and Angel mirroring each other. Ironic, because they as vampires, can't see their own reflections in a mirror. I wonder what the trigger will be that will lead to their connection. I'm thinking it's got to be explosive. Wednesday is sooo far away.... oh, and forgot: love your mentioning of the mirror and reflections. Wish I'd thought of it; glad YOU did.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 17:57:21 GMT -5
Couple things: In conversation with Gil (My Own Private Spike) today about Angel, I learned that in Mexico, the luchadores are not just the big athletes/celebrities/stars that I knew they were. They are also vigilantes! Seems that, at the beginning of the 20th century, Mexico was characterized by anarchy and legal chaos. So Mexicans created vigilantes who would rid the populace of evil people, criminals, who were out to exploit them or harm them. The luchadores (fighters) were the biggest and strongest, so they would wrestle for $ and help the helpless(??!!) outside the ring. To protect themselves from the bad guys, they began to wear masks. And they never took the masks off. It signified that they were fighters for the honor of the people and the protection of the people, and, when they doffed their masks, it gave them protection from the bad guys. Also - #5 told Angel that HE (Angel) would be wearing a mask in a cemetery. Was that a prophecy? Is he fore-telling? I think there are gonna be a couple of fireworky-type explosions that will bring the guys to a truce and to working together. I think the link maybe Spike as grandchilde - a substitution for Connor. Angel has some nurturing desires that were clearly in evidence at the end of The Life of the Party. Does that paragraph belong here? It's my speculation, so it should be okay. Or do we have a speculation thread where it should be? Let me know, ok? Zorro, anyone? We did have a speculation thread, but no one's posted there for a long time.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 8, 2003 18:01:45 GMT -5
I thought this ep was well written but directed quite dreadfully hence the boredom some people experienced. I really wanted Cinco to take the mask off too. I was glad he left the mask on. His looks didn't matter. A hero doesn't have to look a certain way, ie. young and handsome. Plus, makd's post explains that leaving the mask on was part of the luchadore code.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Nov 8, 2003 23:00:06 GMT -5
Couple things: In conversation with Gil (My Own Private Spike) today about Angel, I learned that in Mexico, the luchadores are not just the big athletes/celebrities/stars that I knew they were. They are also vigilantes! Seems that, at the beginning of the 20th century, Mexico was characterized by anarchy and legal chaos. So Mexicans created vigilantes who would rid the populace of evil people, criminals, who were out to exploit them or harm them. The luchadores (fighters) were the biggest and strongest, so they would wrestle for $ and help the helpless(??!!) outside the ring. To protect themselves from the bad guys, they began to wear masks. And they never took the masks off. It signified that they were fighters for the honor of the people and the protection of the people, and, when they doffed their masks, it gave them protection from the bad guys. Also - #5 told Angel that HE (Angel) would be wearing a mask in a cemetery. Was that a prophecy? Is he fore-telling? I think there are gonna be a couple of fireworky-type explosions that will bring the guys to a truce and to working together. I think the link maybe Spike as grandchilde - a substitution for Connor. Angel has some nurturing desires that were clearly in evidence at the end of The Life of the Party. Does that paragraph belong here? It's my speculation, so it should be okay. Or do we have a speculation thread where it should be? Let me know, ok? Remember during the party in 5.5 all the big-headed masked people milling around? Angel also knocked one out when he was surprised by it coming off the elevator. It was a skull mask, I believe. I wondered about the imagery at the time, but couldn't come up with anything better than connecting it to something Lorne said 'it's all about image'. Anyway, since the masks protect the luchadores against the bad guys, if Angel removes his 'mask' will he be vulnerable? And to what, exactly? Don't really know where I'm going with this, just rambling. #5's comment that Angel will someday wear a mask in the cemetery reminded me of D'Hoffryn's comment to Anya after he killed Halfrek in her place. Speculation is fine here, I would think, as long as it's not based on a spoiler. Thanks for the info, makd, on the luchadores/vigilantes - very interesting. So much to ponder. p.s. - Gil sounds like a peach. You are really lucky he watches Angel with you. I'm lucky to have my youngest grudgingly admit that Angel is cool.
|
|
|
Post by Nickim on Nov 9, 2003 14:00:51 GMT -5
Found an interesting point. Nan you mention that Gunn says "a month". Life of the Party was Halloween, October 31. The Mexican Day of the Dead is November 2, so this ep takes place just 2 days later. So time is passing very slowly right now.
|
|
|
Post by lurawan on Nov 11, 2003 15:34:42 GMT -5
Thanks Nan, for reminding us that Angel *did* kill Connor by slashing his throat with the knife he held, when he told Connor he loved him. Connor asked what Angel was going to do about it. "Prove it" Angel replied and with one stroke, finished Connor's (then) life. The father *did* kill the son, sacrificed Connor's twisted life to make room for the more perfect life Connor now enjoys. Another thought occurred to me during Numero Cinco. What if the Powers and the Senior Partners all all the same beings?
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 11, 2003 16:06:54 GMT -5
Thanks Nan, for reminding us that Angel *did* kill Connor by slashing his throat with the knife he held, when he told Connor he loved him. Connor asked what Angel was going to do about it. "Prove it" Angel replied and with one stroke, finished Connor's (then) life. The father *did* kill the son, sacrificed Connor's twisted life to make room for the more perfect life Connor now enjoys. Another thought occurred to me during Numero Cinco. What if the Powers and the Senior Partners all all the same beings?lurawan, glad you dropped in to chat. I have my suspicions re TPTB/SP and they're much like yours. The fact that someone/something has power doesn't make it good. I tend to regard them as much like the Greek gods: they CAN be benevolent, but their ways are not our ways and they're NOT on our side!
|
|
|
Post by makd on Nov 11, 2003 18:37:52 GMT -5
lurawan, glad you dropped in to chat. I have my suspicions re TPTB/SP and they're much like yours. The fact that somone/something has power doesn't make it good. I tend to regard them as much like the Greek gods: they CAN be benevolent, but their ways are not our ways and they're NOT on our side! ITA. Their whims MIGHT be on our side in one situation; against us in another. Capricious.
|
|
|
Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 11, 2003 19:39:49 GMT -5
ITA. Their whims MIGHT be on our side in one situation; against us in another. Capricious. Yup. Jasmine pretty much proves that.
|
|