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Post by ldelrossi on Dec 6, 2003 8:23:22 GMT -5
I totally agree that Angelus was the most cold, calculating, cruel vampire ever. Other vampires cringe when they hear his name. That is where Angel's fear comes from - he is sincerely afraid that the demon within is so strong, cunning, and evil that he may not be able always be able to control it. In season 4, when the FG, Wes especially, wanted to bring forth Angelus, Angel was horrified and at first refused. He tried to tell them how dangerous Angelus was. He gave in because it seemed to be the only possible way to learn how to fight the beast, but he was truly frightened at the outcome.
Spike too has to control his evil vampiric tendencies which he has, both souled and unsouled. I just think that because Spike was nowhere near as evil or cruel as Angelus, he is less afraid of losing control and is more accepting of his vampire strengths. Unlike Angel, he believes he can always control the beast within and therefore is comfortable at integrating that part of himself into his more humane self.
Angel, knowing the unrelenting and sadistic cruelty that is within him, is afraid to accept and positively use that part of himself because he is afraid, that one false step, the curse or something else, will release that cruelty.
Each person is a unique individual and since they carry their humanity within them as well, each vampire is different. But I really would like to talk to JW sometime and ask him what made Angelus so much worse.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 6, 2003 9:46:09 GMT -5
I totally agree that Angelus was the most cold, calculating, cruel vampire ever. Other vampires cringe when they hear his name. That is where Angel's fear comes from - he is sincerely afraid that the demon within is so strong, cunning, and evil that he may not be able always be able to control it. In season 4, when the FG, Wes especially, wanted to bring forth Angelus, Angel was horrified and at first refused. He tried to tell them how dangerous Angelus was. He gave in because it seemed to be the only possible way to learn how to fight the beast, but he was truly frightened at the outcome. Spike too has to control his evil vampiric tendencies which he has, both souled and unsouled. I just think that because Spike was nowhere near as evil or cruel as Angelus, he is less afraid of losing control and is more accepting of his vampire strengths. Unlike Angel, he believes he can always control the beast within and therefore is comfortable at integrating that part of himself into his more humane self. Angel, knowing the unrelenting and sadistic cruelty that is within him, is afraid to accept and positively use that part of himself because he is afraid, that one false step, the curse or something else, will release that cruelty. Each person is a unique individual and since they carry their humanity within them as well, each vampire is different. But I really would like to talk to JW sometime and ask him what made Angelus so much worse. I'm sure that this has been discussed/mentioned before, but I would think that Angelus' extra dimension of inhuman cruelty is rooted in Liam's pre-vamp life. Liam grew up in a household that from what I could see had very little love in it, and much emotional pain. Repression was the order of the day. It could also be that Liam's father beat him too; corporal (spelling?) punishment of rebellious children was not frowned upon in the 18th century. Doubtless Liam had a lot of anger built up against his parents, and the world, from childhood on. As a human, he limited the expression of that anger to defiance of his father and drinking/petty theft, and would probably not have lived out a full lifespan of that time. But once he was turned, endowed with super-strength and all moral/religious inhibitions removed or rejected (I think the absence of soul removed the moral inhibitions, and Angelus gleefully rejoiced in his own damnation and rejected religious inhibitions), Angelus went from bad to worse, suppressing all softer human instincts, perhaps because he had felt intense pain and rage as a human and had felt helpless to alter his fate.
William suffered pain, but of a much lighter sort; he suffered the pain of being a misfit among his peers, of not really fitting in, of being mocked for his bad poetry. But he had been raised with love; and had always been able to fall back on the cushion of his mother's adoration. So there wasn't as much rage in the new-vamp William; or as much rejection of human feelings. Love had been his guiding star in life; and the vampire William happily kept it as his guiding star in unlife.
William is only now finding out what sort of purpose he can dedicate his existence to in the absence of a woman to be obsessed with and adore.
It's a great time for both our Soul Men...
GAIL
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Post by Karen on Dec 6, 2003 11:16:08 GMT -5
I'm sure that this has been discussed/mentioned before, but I would think that Angelus' extra dimension of inhuman cruelty is rooted in Liam's pre-vamp life. Liam grew up in a household that from what I could see had very little love in it, and much emotional pain. Repression was the order of the day. It could also be that Liam's father beat him too; corporal (spelling?) punishment of rebellious children was not frowned upon in the 18th century. Doubtless Liam had a lot of anger built up against his parents, and the world, from childhood on. As a human, he limited the expression of that anger to defiance of his father and drinking/petty theft, and would probably not have lived out a full lifespan of that time. But once he was turned, endowed with super-strength and all moral/religious inhibitions removed or rejected (I think the absence of soul removed the moral inhibitions, and Angelus gleefully rejoiced in his own damnation and rejected religious inhibitions), Angelus went from bad to worse, suppressing all softer human instincts, perhaps because he had felt intense pain and rage as a human and had felt helpless to alter his fate.
William suffered pain, but of a much lighter sort; he suffered the pain of being a misfit among his peers, of not really fitting in, of being mocked for his bad poetry. But he had been raised with love; and had always been able to fall back on the cushion of his mother's adoration. So there wasn't as much rage in the new-vamp William; or as much rejection of human feelings. Love had been his guiding star in life; and the vampire William happily kept it as his guiding star in unlife.
William is only now finding out what sort of purpose he can dedicate his existence to in the absence of a woman to be obsessed with and adore.
It's a great time for both our Soul Men...
GAIL ITA. Angel needs to deal with his "daddy" issues. Wesley's killing of his "father" could have been forshadowing of Angel's coming to terms with his own childhood trauma. We haven't seen Gunn deal with his past that I can remember. His childhood had to be traumatic in some way also. Could be a minor theme this season, like it was for Spike and his "mommy" issues in the last season of Buffy. I don't see Angel's persona as only Liam with a soul with memories of Angelus's past cruelties. The demon is very much a separate entity, still there, being controlled by Angel's soul. Angel is actually a demon. I don't see it as something he can just accept and it'll be gone. But I do think that Angel needs to deal with his underlying anger so that he can deal more effectively with Angelus and keep him at bay. He's heading to a bad place with his feelings of disconnect from the rest of the gang. It is a great time for our souled champions - and us.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 13:19:08 GMT -5
I'm sure that this has been discussed/mentioned before, but I would think that Angelus' extra dimension of inhuman cruelty is rooted in Liam's pre-vamp life. Liam grew up in a household that from what I could see had very little love in it, and much emotional pain. Repression was the order of the day. It could also be that Liam's father beat him too; corporal (spelling?) punishment of rebellious children was not frowned upon in the 18th century. Doubtless Liam had a lot of anger built up against his parents, and the world, from childhood on. As a human, he limited the expression of that anger to defiance of his father and drinking/petty theft, and would probably not have lived out a full lifespan of that time. But once he was turned, endowed with super-strength and all moral/religious inhibitions removed or rejected (I think the absence of soul removed the moral inhibitions, and Angelus gleefully rejoiced in his own damnation and rejected religious inhibitions), Angelus went from bad to worse, suppressing all softer human instincts, perhaps because he had felt intense pain and rage as a human and had felt helpless to alter his fate.
William suffered pain, but of a much lighter sort; he suffered the pain of being a misfit among his peers, of not really fitting in, of being mocked for his bad poetry. But he had been raised with love; and had always been able to fall back on the cushion of his mother's adoration. So there wasn't as much rage in the new-vamp William; or as much rejection of human feelings. Love had been his guiding star in life; and the vampire William happily kept it as his guiding star in unlife.
William is only now finding out what sort of purpose he can dedicate his existence to in the absence of a woman to be obsessed with and adore.
It's a great time for both our Soul Men...
GAIL I'm not sure exactly why your post made me think of this, but hey- maybe I just like to quote you! I think that the previously mention-ed drunkeness motif for looking at the 2 vamps non-souled is interesting. Some drunks are happy- dance on tables, tell stupid jokes, have sex, etc. Some are "angry" drunks who want to beat their kids, wives, etc... Some off the difference comes from the person, but some comes from their physiology and how they respond to the liquor/e-vil. So i think some of the S/A differences can be explained by psychology, but maybe some can't. Also- Spike is obviously a "less e-vil" vampire, but i noticed a big difference in one aspect of his style. He likes his fights fair. Hey- I know he's slaughtered some helpless along the way too- but to quote the famous "fool for love"- he likes his fights "back up against the wall, all fists and fangs" and wonders why Angel doesn't "get tired of fights he knows he can win." Why Angel is so evil is understandable given his upbringing, but I wonder why Spike is so into having strong oponents. Is it because he is more scrap-happy and really likes the fighting more so than the torturing aspects of the job? Is it because he's used to fighting Angel, and likes to beat good opponents to get reating for a smack down with Angel? Or is it because William retained some ideas about fairness and rightness in his vampire state. Maybe Spike has more than one guiding star? TLV
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 6, 2003 13:20:21 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly why your post made me think of this, but hey- maybe I just like to quote you! I think that the previously mention-ed drunkeness motif for looking at the 2 vamps non-souled is interesting. Some drunks are happy- dance on tables, tell stupid jokes, have sex, etc. Some are "angry" drunks who want to beat their kids, wives, etc... Some off the difference comes from the person, but some comes from their physiology and how they respond to the liquor/e-vil. So i think some of the S/A differences can be explained by psychology, but maybe some can't. Also- Spike is obviously a "less e-vil" vampire, but i noticed a big difference in one aspect of his style. He likes his fights fair. Hey- I know he's slaughtered some helpless along the way too- but to quote the famous "fool for love"- he likes his fights "back up against the wall, all fists and fangs" and wonders why Angel doesn't "get tired of fights he knows he can win." Why Angel is so evil is understandable given his upbringing, but I wonder why Spike is so into having strong oponents. Is it because he is more scrap-happy and really likes the fighting more so than the torturing aspects of the job? Is it because he's used to fighting Angel, and likes to beat good opponents to get reating for a smack down with Angel? Or is it because William retained some ideas about fairness and rightness in his vampire state. Maybe Spike has more than one guiding star? TLV Oops- I read the "drunkeness" idea on another thread- well you get the idea.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 6, 2003 17:59:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure exactly why your post made me think of this, but hey- maybe I just like to quote you! I think that the previously mention-ed drunkeness motif for looking at the 2 vamps non-souled is interesting. Some drunks are happy- dance on tables, tell stupid jokes, have sex, etc. Some are "angry" drunks who want to beat their kids, wives, etc... Some off the difference comes from the person, but some comes from their physiology and how they respond to the liquor/e-vil. So i think some of the S/A differences can be explained by psychology, but maybe some can't. Also- Spike is obviously a "less e-vil" vampire, but i noticed a big difference in one aspect of his style. He likes his fights fair. Hey- I know he's slaughtered some helpless along the way too- but to quote the famous "fool for love"- he likes his fights "back up against the wall, all fists and fangs" and wonders why Angel doesn't "get tired of fights he knows he can win." Why Angel is so evil is understandable given his upbringing, but I wonder why Spike is so into having strong oponents. Is it because he is more scrap-happy and really likes the fighting more so than the torturing aspects of the job? Is it because he's used to fighting Angel, and likes to beat good opponents to get reating for a smack down with Angel? Or is it because William retained some ideas about fairness and rightness in his vampire state. Maybe Spike has more than one guiding star? TLV It could be that vamp William retained some ideas about fairness, as in the importance of a 'sporting', fair fight. If Spike retained any ideas of "rightness" from his pre-vamp days, he quickly rejected them; it was obvious in BUFFY S2 that he had a vague awareness of such things but no use for doing the right things unless there was a direct benefit to him - witness his appropriate conduct as a good little guest in Joyce's home, then his joyous appreciation of Drusilla's having 'bagged herself a Slayer' followed by his suppressing his glee with a sober 'well, not from your prospective I suppose', and let's not forget the 'God, he's going to kill her' observation of Angelus homing in on the apparently helpless Buffy and Spike's shrug and exit with Drusilla.
Spike has been shown to revel in the hunt, the fight and the kill. I think that part of it is a reaction to his pre-vamp softness as the nonviolent, helpless against bullies, William.
Spike gets a huge adrenalin rush out of hunting/fighting/killing strong opponents, the bigger and badder the better. His mention of Dru 'bagging' a Slayer is a reminder of his fascination with hunting a Slayer, his concept of the Slayer as high-stakes prey, a worthy kill and fantastic trophy, hence his needing to wear Nikki's duster as a trophy to keep his edge in combat.
Of course, he did kill young girls for food and possibly hurt/torture/rape them first; we don't know the specifics there (and in my case am not anxious to learn them) and if that was part of Spike's hunting/fighting recreation...
Angelus/Angel was always a better fighter than Spike because the big guy was a more considered and methodical planner. Spike runs off all fists-and-fangs and forgets to wait for backup or think about the odds; Angelus sits back and plans an offensive or a torture-from-afar campaign, Angel almost always has a backup in play....Of course, in the magnificent single combat in DESTINY, Spike finally beat his grandsire in a fair fight. I don't know if it will happen again, but it was fun to watch.[glow=brown,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 7, 2003 14:27:23 GMT -5
It could be that vamp William retained some ideas about fairness, as in the importance of a 'sporting', fair fight. If Spike retained any ideas of "rightness" from his pre-vamp days, he quickly rejected them; it was obvious in BUFFY S2 that he had a vague awareness of such things but no use for doing the right things unless there was a direct benefit to him - witness his appropriate conduct as a good little guest in Joyce's home, then his joyous appreciation of Drusilla's having 'bagged herself a Slayer' followed by his suppressing his glee with a sober 'well, not from your prospective I suppose', and let's not forget the 'God, he's going to kill her' observation of Angelus homing in on the apparently helpless Buffy and Spike's shrug and exit with Drusilla.
Spike has been shown to revel in the hunt, the fight and the kill. I think that part of it is a reaction to his pre-vamp softness as the nonviolent, helpless against bullies, William.
Spike gets a huge adrenalin rush out of hunting/fighting/killing strong opponents, the bigger and badder the better. His mention of Dru 'bagging' a Slayer is a reminder of his fascination with hunting a Slayer, his concept of the Slayer as high-stakes prey, a worthy kill and fantastic trophy, hence his needing to wear Nikki's duster as a trophy to keep his edge in combat.
Of course, he did kill young girls for food and possibly hurt/torture/rape them first; we don't know the specifics there (and in my case am not anxious to learn them) and if that was part of Spike's hunting/fighting recreation...
Angelus/Angel was always a better fighter than Spike because the big guy was a more considered and methodical planner. Spike runs off all fists-and-fangs and forgets to wait for backup or think about the odds; Angelus sits back and plans an offensive or a torture-from-afar campaign, Angel almost always has a backup in play....Of course, in the magnificent single combat in DESTINY, Spike finally beat his grandsire in a fair fight. I don't know if it will happen again, but it was fun to watch.[glow=brown,2,300]GAIL [/glow] Yep, Spike not so much with the planning. I didn't think of the "hunt" analogy as directly. Maybe William grew up with a "Hunting" thing- the English used to be into that, right? Maybe it's has to do with the seldom-mentioned father figure in William's life? TLV
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 7, 2003 21:33:48 GMT -5
Yep, Spike not so much with the planning. I didn't think of the "hunt" analogy as directly. Maybe William grew up with a "Hunting" thing- the English used to be into that, right? Maybe it's has to do with the seldom-mentioned father figure in William's life? TLV I can just imagine William being too soft-hearted to shoot birds. We don't know if he was much of a rider, either, or rode to hounds. (my late father, who did, said that the fox almost always got away while the riders got cold and often rained on, then went back to the club and ate and drank).
Many Brits still are into hunting, at least of birds. As the owner of three dogs who would have been good hunters if I had any interest in tramping through possibly tick-infested fields to train them, I would hate to see their relatives in the mother country deprived of that occupation, it's in their blood. I've witnessed an AKC Hunt Test; and think that the birds raised to be killed in the tests lead better lives than the frozen chickens I buy at the grocery store did; they get to walk around a bit, fly, their coops aren't horribly crowded...
We don't know much about pre-vamp William's lifestyle. I think he was a soft mama's boy intellectual afraid of/inept at physical sports, and possibly felt inferior because of it. Vamp William exulted in his new physical strength and power; and was just as willing to take on the physically much bigger and more experienced Angelus and anyone else in his way. [glow=brown,2,300]GAIL [/glow]
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