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Post by Juliastillinexile on Dec 11, 2003 10:47:26 GMT -5
Julia wrote: Actually, male as well as female virginity was one of the ideals of the PreRaphs, so even William's lack of experience would be considered rebellious, then. The Power Elite/Establisment thing involved LOTS of nasty behavior on the part of men prior to and just after marriage; V. Sackville-West's The Edwardians shows the tail-end of that behavior and its consequences but reading the biography of her Grandfather, for instance, gives a pretty good idea of just what kind of sexual, social, and financial hijinks was considered the norm for upper-class men in the Victorian period. Julia, although Trollope's political ovels have that as one of the many subtexts <END QUOTE> Sorry Julia, but I don't know how to quote you when you're not able to log-in--BTW, I hope that's fixed soon! If I'm not confusing my chronology, William post-dates the pre-Raphaelites by a few decades; for that reason, even though his working class pretensions seem to allude to pre-Raphaelite ideals, he (or the writers) may have been adding a little Byron or (William's contemporary) Wilde to the mix--after all, William was a poet, not a painter. And both Byron and Wilde are associated with a less conventional sexuality. Not trying to argue that William necessarily was experienced sexually in any (either?) way, just that he might have aspired to more experience. Well, the Preraphealites were a little early, Wilde is just a hair late; Aubrey Beardsley is way too radical for a safe rebel like William, and I was really thinking mostly of Ruskin as his primary intellectual influence. Julia, wandering in the wilderness of "guestage"
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 11, 2003 18:17:34 GMT -5
ITA- you put it much better than I did. TLV For the record- I don't think William was averse to the messy sex stuff, I just don't think he'd gotten any. Why? I assume it's because he's only ever wanted the unattainable. Random though- It's interesting how much familiarity Spike has with ways to seduce women given, as far as we know, he's only ever had three girlfriends (Dru, Harm, and Buffy.) In School Hard he has that great line, "Who do you want me to be?" and in Harsh Light of Day he sayds, "Did he play the sensitive lad and get you to seduce him, that's a good trick." I've often wondered when he got all this dating expertise. Toying with victims? He's much better at dating than Angel. I can't remember the exact dialogue, but I remeber Buffy berating Angel for not going to the bronze to meet her. She is like, after 200 years of dating don't you know what a girl means when she says "maybe I'll be there." Then again, maybe Angel was just playing hard to get. TLV I think, TLV, that given the curse, Angel has only Angelus' experiences to go by...and Angelus wasn't really interested in *dating.* And as for Angel, in the early seasons Cordelia sufficiently makes manifest that Angel is basically clueless about women in general, in terms of anything resembling dating. He's a complete social klutz.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 11, 2003 19:40:20 GMT -5
I think, TLV, that given the curse, Angel has only Angelus' experiences to go by...and Angelus wasn't really interested in *dating.* And as for Angel, in the early seasons Cordelia sufficiently makes manifest that Angel is basically clueless about women in general, in terms of anything resembling dating. He's a complete social klutz. I wonder if prey/women didn't "throw themselves in Angel's lap" much in the way everything else has (or at least as Spike sees it.) I agree with Spring that Spike is "not the cheatin' kind" but he has definately put some work in in this area- not necessarily for romantic reasons. I would think that someone who is so at the mercy of his heart as Spike/William would find it fascinating to learn how to play with others' hearts. Evil Spike was Smooooooooove. TLV
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Post by LadyDi on Dec 15, 2003 18:02:25 GMT -5
Don't discount Angel's relationships with Buffy, Fred, Kate, Faith or Willow, or even for a time, Darla (while she was human, or pregnant with Connor); all these women were quite close to Angel, many very close. And before you argue that Buffy was his love interest, so was Cordy. Angel was close to these women, but they weren't really friends. Angel's view of gender relations, and women in particular, were shaped in Liam's time and place. Women were for pleasure, they were the weaker sex (weaker in all ways), and men didn't pal around with them.
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Post by Angels Champion on Dec 15, 2003 18:33:40 GMT -5
Angel was close to these women, but they weren't really friends. Angel's view of gender relations, and women in particular, were shaped in Liam's time and place. Women were for pleasure, they were the weaker sex (weaker in all ways), and men didn't pal around with them. I so have to disagree with you here on this one. In no way does Ange's views on women mirror anywhere close to Liam's. Remember that Halloween episode from Season 2, where Buffy turned into her costume, which was a Lady from Liam's time cuz she thought that was the type of girl that Angel like. He even admitted in the end that he didn't like those. From the Episode "Halloween": Cut to the Summers house. Cut to Buffy's room. Angel is lounging on her bed. She opens the door and comes in wearing a tank top and sweatpants.
Buffy: Tada. Just little old 20th-century me.
Angel: Sure you're okay?
Buffy: I'll live.
She walks over to him, and he sits up on the bed.
Angel: I don't get it, Buffy. Why'd you think I'd like you better dressed that way?
Buffy: (sits next to him) I just wanted to be a real girl for once. The kind of fancy girl you liked when you were my age.
Angel: (ironically) Oh, ho.
Buffy: What?
Angel: I hated the girls back then. Especially the noble women.
Buffy: (nods) You did.
Angel: They were just incredibly dull. Simpering morons, the lot of them. I always wished I could meet someone... exciting. (looks her in the eyes) Interesting.
Buffy: Really? Interesting how?
Angel: You know how.
Buffy: Still, I had a really hard day. You should probably tell me.
Angel: (smiles and draws nearer) You're right. I should.
Buffy: (gets closer) Definitely.
They kiss gently yet passionately. She cradles his face in her hands.
Sure he gets protective of them, but Liam thought of them as no more than for his pleasure . . .I have never gotten that imporession from Angel . . . Where did you get this impression?
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Post by Lori on Dec 15, 2003 19:18:08 GMT -5
I have to agree with both Dave and Angel's Champion. Angel's relationship with Fred began when he save her, but it developed when they were inside her cave. He was so gentle. When he pushed her glasses up on her nose, I melted. When Angel came back from his months away in Asia after Buffy's death, he came often to Fred's room to try to get her to come out. He never commanded her or forced her, he was sensitive and very sweet. He was tender with her when he had to tell her he didn't think of her as anything more than a friend. Now in season 5, in is obvious that he respects her capabilities. He was concerned for Darla when she was pregnant. I realize he was thrilled with the idea of having a child, but he made every effort to help her, to make her comfortable, to sit with her and hold her hand while she slept. On the rooftop, when she kept saying she couldn't have the baby, he was gentle with her, never getting angry. He understood that she loved the baby and was behaving the way she did out of fear. When she staked herself, he truly grieved.
His relationship with Cordelia grew deeper over the seasons. They were true friends and he listened to her when she spoke to him even though it was often chastizing. He depended on her listening to him. He confided in her about how he felt after Buffy died - that he could still go on. He was terribly distressed when she disappeared into Pylea and he was determined to rescue her. This was still friendship working, not romance. Romance did develop later, much to my chagrin.
He felt respect and friendship for Kate as well. He was patient with her, understanding that she attacked her because of her pain at her father's death. He rescued her from her suicide attempt.
Angel is not Liam. Liam was an angry young man who sought love in taverns while drunk. Angel is a mature man/vampire who must hold himself aloof because of his curse, but he values friendships with women which the writers develop in many different episodes.
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Post by RAKSHA on Dec 15, 2003 23:40:44 GMT -5
I have to agree with both Dave and Angel's Champion. Angel's relationship with Fred began when he save her, but it developed when they were inside her cave. He was so gentle. When he pushed her glasses up on her nose, I melted. When Angel came back from his months away in Asia after Buffy's death, he came often to Fred's room to try to get her to come out. He never commanded her or forced her, he was sensitive and very sweet. He was tender with her when he had to tell her he didn't think of her as anything more than a friend. Now in season 5, in is obvious that he respects her capabilities. He was concerned for Darla when she was pregnant. I realize he was thrilled with the idea of having a child, but he made every effort to help her, to make her comfortable, to sit with her and hold her hand while she slept. On the rooftop, when she kept saying she couldn't have the baby, he was gentle with her, never getting angry. He understood that she loved the baby and was behaving the way she did out of fear. When she staked herself, he truly grieved. His relationship with Cordelia grew deeper over the seasons. They were true friends and he listened to her when she spoke to him even though it was often chastizing. He depended on her listening to him. He confided in her about how he felt after Buffy died - that he could still go on. He was terribly distressed when she disappeared into Pylea and he was determined to rescue her. This was still friendship working, not romance. Romance did develop later, much to my chagrin. He felt respect and friendship for Kate as well. He was patient with her, understanding that she attacked her because of her pain at her father's death. He rescued her from her suicide attempt. Angel is not Liam. Liam was an angry young man who sought love in taverns while drunk. Angel is a mature man/vampire who must hold himself aloof because of his curse, but he values friendships with women which the writers develop in many different episodes. Yes, Angel has grown up considerably from loutish Liam who was out for whatever he could get from local lasses and the mysterious lady in the alley. But much of that growth has been since he left Sunnydale. I remember how awkward Angel was in the singles bar where he first met Kate; who he really did like in all respects - romanticallly and as a person.
He has always been kind and gentle with Fred; all the while respecting her more and more as she evolved from the 'wild girl' he saved in Pylea.
I much preferred Angel's pseudo-big brotherly relationship to Cordelia than the amorous wannabe boyfriend he played in S3.
GAIL
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Post by nmcil on Dec 18, 2003 12:58:04 GMT -5
Sorry Nan - I don't know how to start a new subject.
I just wanted to say that the blood seeping out from people & Spike's nose could be taken as a symtom of the body attempting to excrete poison or foreign matter. Extreme lacrimation is one of the symtoms of a viral infection i.e., rabies. There are several other symptoms that characters show - nausea (Wesley & Angel) violent and unusual behavior (nocturnal animals going out during the daytime, Fred has to remind Angel about daytime hours) references to Eve's throat hurting - hydrophobia refers to fear of drinking because of the extreme discomfort. Hydrophia makes people craze - Angel to Fred "the maddness is real."
Don't know if anything will come from these references, but I love to speculate. We know that much of Joseph Cambell's work is referenced in the series, and he also refers to the magnificence and intrinsic intelligence of this viral form of life. Bats are one of the major carriers of these life form, as are small wildlife i.e., otters and coyotes (not far from The Wolf) and this viral form can also spread via air.
The problem with all this speculation is that the storyline references are so obvious that I have trouble trusting them.
Love to read your reviews.
nmcil
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 21, 2003 3:28:41 GMT -5
Sorry Nan - I don't know how to start a new subject. I just wanted to say that the blood seeping out from people & Spike's nose could be taken as a symtom of the body attempting to excrete poison or foreign matter. Extreme lacrimation is one of the symtoms of a viral infection i.e., rabies. There are several other symptoms that characters show - nausea (Wesley & Angel) violent and unusual behavior (nocturnal animals going out during the daytime, Fred has to remind Angel about daytime hours) references to Eve's throat hurting - hydrophobia refers to fear of drinking because of the extreme discomfort. Hydrophia makes people craze - Angel to Fred "the maddness is real." Don't know if anything will come from these references, but I love to speculate. We know that much of Joseph Cambell's work is referenced in the series, and he also refers to the magnificence and intrinsic intelligence of this viral form of life. Bats are one of the major carriers of these life form, as are small wildlife i.e., otters and coyotes (not far from The Wolf) and this viral form can also spread via air. The problem with all this speculation is that the storyline references are so obvious that I have trouble trusting them. Love to read your reviews. nmcil Hi, nmcil. Do I understand your point correctly, that you're observing a form of metaphorical rabies is rampant at W & H in the "eyes bleeding" plague that afflicts people there in Destiny? I know you're making the point that it's an analogy, not a fact, since (for instance) Eve's throat hurts because Gunn was choking her, not from a virus of any sort. I hadn't thought to connect up the "eyes bleeding" with the symptoms of any actual disease, since it either coincides with or causes (??) the phone and computer lines to go down, which again a virus can't do, but you could well be right in terms of *which* disease was being mimicked. However, only a magical disease could display this range of effects, on both people and communications, so the connection is speculative. However, this *is* the place to speculate!
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Post by Karen on Dec 21, 2003 9:16:25 GMT -5
Hi, nmcil. Do I understand your point correctly, that you're observing a form of metaphorical rabies is rampant at W & H in the "eyes bleeding" plague that afflicts people there in Destiny? I know you're making the point that it's an analogy, not a fact, since (for instance) Eve's throat hurts because Gunn was choking her, not from a virus of any sort. I hadn't thought to connect up the "eyes bleeding" with the symptoms of any actual disease, since it either coincides with or causes (??) the phone and computer lines to go down, which again a virus can't do, but you could well be right in terms of *which* disease was being mimicked. However, only a magical disease could display this range of effects, on both people and communications, so the connection is speculative. However, this *is* the place to speculate! Did you say "speculate"? That is the magic word. Nan said: The present Cup is located in The Columns, a half-buried opera house in Death Valley in Nevada. Opera is the plural of Latin opus, meaning work or deed, action. So we have a female Cup of Perpetual Torment that is a precursor (“harbinger”) to mortal life, in the Valley of Death, in a place representing works or deeds. Sounds a lot like Life, to me. So I’m not yet prepared to dismiss the Cup, and all that goes with it, as an empty fabrication. Too many resonances here.What if the "cup" was Buffy? And both Angel and Spike were "reborn" after "drinking" from her? So, they already both drank out of the "cup of perpetual torment/life". That part of the prophecy is already fulfilled. The next part of the Shanshu prophecy is that after drinking from the cup, the vampire will have the "weight of the worlds upon him, binding his limbs, grinding his bones to meal, until he saves creation or destroys it." Angel is already burdened with alot. Spike, not so much - at least yet. I wonder if that will change now that he is corporeal? Then 'his past will be washed clean and he will live again in mortal form'. ?? Who, what, where, how? The opera house is in Death Valley. Nan said that the Valley of Death represents works or deeds (W&H?). In one part during the fight between Angel and Spike, they were actually on the stage in the opera house. And the prophecy said that "it isn't over until the fat lady sings'. So who is the "fat lady"? EveL indicated that the Cup they sent Angel and Spike after was fake - and it was. When Spike won the fight and drank from it, it caused Angel to doubt himself - and it made Spike want to go off and get piss-ass drunk. I think there is a real cup, and both Spike and Angel already drank from it - Buffy. And when they did, she gave them both a reason to live. Rambling over. Oh, one more thing. I got to thinking about the "bleeding eyes" and how Eve said it was a harbinger. Kind of like the "bringers" in S7 of Buffy. I suppose this has been brought up before. It seemed like the madness was triggered by anger or frustration. Gunn was affected. And if the cat is gone, is Gunn now on his own with no tie to whatever it was he was tied to? His comment to Angel when Angel asked what do they do now (about the madness) was - "you can start by untying the brother" - just sticks in my head for some reason.
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Post by nmcil on Dec 21, 2003 12:47:51 GMT -5
I think that the "hidden river" is the metaphor for blood or fount of elixir of life and that Buffy, like you state, was the source of a rediscovery of "the self" of Spike and Angel. She was the source for change and with Spike she was guide for his entire journey, the reason he was able to reignite his spark.
Not sure what the protocals (sp?) are on this board -
really love visiting this board and seeing all the great reviews from Nan and what the members ideas.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 21, 2003 12:53:11 GMT -5
I think that the "hidden river" is the metaphor for blood or fount of elixir of life and that Buffy, like you state, was the source of a rediscovery of "the self" of Spike and Angel. She was the source for change and with Spike she was guide for his entire journey, the reason he was able to reignite his spark. Not sure what the protocals (sp?) are on this board - really love visiting this board and seeing all the great reviews from Nan and what the members ideas. Glad to have you. Our rules are simple: 1. Be polite to others 2. No spoilers, except on the spoiler thread. Have you checked out the Main Thread? That's where most of our day to day chatting takes place. Just go to the Main Page and look for the Part with the largest number--it's usually right at the top.
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Post by nmcil on Dec 21, 2003 13:02:12 GMT -5
with regards to a viral cause for the madness in Destiny, - I am only speculating that some form of intrusive agent is at work, either biological or created by one of the Ultra Power Players via Eve & Sirk. At first I thought it was connected with the phone lines, which have been prominant in background noise since the season opener. Not sure what the connections are now, if any. I do think that Spike, because of his nose bleed, might be one of the victims and because Angel calls the madness real. Perhaps the incident has already played out as a diversion?
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Post by nmcil on Dec 21, 2003 13:10:24 GMT -5
Thanks for the info - I will visit the main topic board. I am new to this type of site - still have to learn how they work.
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Post by Nickim on Dec 21, 2003 13:10:48 GMT -5
with regards to a viral cause for the madness in Destiny, - I am only speculating that some form of intrusive agent is at work, either biological or created by one of the Ultra Power Players via Eve & Sirk. At first I thought it was connected with the phone lines, which have been prominant in background noise since the season opener. Not sure what the connections are now, if any. I do think that Spike, because of his nose bleed, might be one of the victims and because Angel calls the madness real. Perhaps the incident has already played out as a diversion? The phone lines would be a good vector for an infection, since they're something nearly everyone uses. I tend to think all the troubles were caused by magic, though, since the symptoms stopped as quickly as they started.
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