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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 23, 2003 19:00:52 GMT -5
More stuff on Spike, Dru and LMPTM- I was thinking that LMPTM is key to understanding the Spike and Dru dynamic in this episode. When Spike and Dru go to Willie's house, Dru is all over him, growling and such. When she takes him to Angel's, she's pushing him away a bit, teasing him about being a "starved one." I think they went to Willie's house first, and when Dru saw the sad, sad scene that was Willie siring his mom it turned her off So she took him to see Angel, in part, to teach him, or have Angel teach him, how to be a real vampire- to mold him into the man she wanted him to be. When Willie is introduced to Angel, she does not add, "and his mom will be joining us in a few days." I was struck how Dru never told Angel about Willie siring his mom. I'm sure William never told her the full story, but even the part Dru knew would a have been a powerful piece of info to use against Spike. From what we knew, Dru never shared that info with anyone, or even brought it up in a fight. That was very sweet and motherly of her. All this makes me think that Dru was a much better girlfriend than I'd ever thought before. She held his hand from being a sad little boy of a man to a powerful and respected slayer killer. (He even did it all in ten years!) It also makes me think of Angel in a new way as a father figure to Spike. He did toughen Spike up, and taught him to fight. In a way, Angel may have provided the type of "tough love" that neither William's mother, nor Drucilla could provide. Angel's role in Spike's life is cobflicted, but ultimately necessary for Spike to become the person he is. Anyway- sorry about going on and on.. Happy Holidays, again, TooLongViewpoint
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Post by Nickim on Dec 23, 2003 19:06:16 GMT -5
More stuff on Spike, Dru and LMPTM- I was thinking that LMPTM is key to understanding the Spike and Dru dynamic in this episode. When Spike and Dru go to Willie's house, Dru is all over him, growling and such. When she takes him to Angel's, she's pushing him away a bit, teasing him about being a "starved one." I think they went to Willie's house first, and when Dru saw the sad, sad scene that was Willie siring his mom it turned her off So she took him to see Angel, in part, to teach him, or have Angel teach him, how to be a real vampire- to mold him into the man she wanted him to be. When Willie is introduced to Angel, she does not add, "and his mom will be joining us in a few days." I was struck how Dru never told Angel about Willie siring his mom. I'm sure William never told her the full story, but even the part Dru knew would a have been a powerful piece of info to use against Spike. From what we knew, Dru never shared that info with anyone, or even brought it up in a fight. That was very sweet and motherly of her. All this makes me think that Dru was a much better girlfriend than I'd ever thought before. She held his hand from being a sad little boy of a man to a powerful and respected slayer killer. (He even did it all in ten years!) It also makes me think of Angel in a new way as a father figure to Spike. He did toughen Spike up, and taught him to fight. In a way, Angel may have provided the type of "tough love" that neither William's mother, nor Drucilla could provide. Angel's role in Spike's life is cobflicted, but ultimately necessary for Spike to become the person he is. Anyway- sorry about going on and on.. Happy Holidays, again, TooLongViewpoint Actually, 20 years. Spike was sired in 1880 and killed the Chinese Slayer in 1900. I like your insight about Dru. I've always felt sorry for her, even Darla & Angel kind of kicked her around.
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Post by thelittlestvampire on Dec 23, 2003 19:14:54 GMT -5
Actually, 20 years. Spike was sired in 1880 and killed the Chinese Slayer in 1900. I like your insight about Dru. I've always felt sorry for her, even Darla & Angel kind of kicked her around. I stand corrected! Still- 20 years is pretty good personal growth in vampire time! TLV
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Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 29, 2003 23:23:20 GMT -5
Buffy as the cup.I'm a little dubious that Buffy could be the cup, already "drunk from" in some sense or other. The mythic resonance is right, but...Buffy herself is not a part of Angel the Series. So I doubt the writers would want to make viewers stretch beyond the series for the meaning of this apparently fairly important prophecy. It's not a mythic reason, just a writerly reason. I think that the meaning of the propecy must reside within what's already been established, or is *to* be established, within Angel the Series, not referenced off to another series, albeit a related one. If that connection is overtly made, I'll accept it--again, the cup as female and Buffy as the central woman both vamps have related to powerfully and changed because of is a genuinely possible interpretation. But I discount it for the moment because it's extrinsic to Angel the Series. I'd be inclined to agree with you here except for the fact that Buffy has been referenced very clearly and specifically in this episode. I don't know if that makes Buffy "the Cup," but the writers don't seem to be having any trouble using events from BtVS to move the plot along on AtS.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Dec 30, 2003 13:06:38 GMT -5
I'd be inclined to agree with you here except for the fact that Buffy has been referenced very clearly and specifically in this episode. I don't know if that makes Buffy "the Cup," but the writers don't seem to be having any trouble using events from BtVS to move the plot along on AtS. It's possible you're right, WinterDreamer. It's certainly a possible connection, symbolically. I would just want it made more explicit in the current series before I'd accept that equivalence as expressed, not merely possible/implicit. Come to the Main board sometimes, WinterDreamer and other review posters, and join the confab there. If you've forgotten, the "Forum Jump" box, bottom right, will take you to the Main board, and the highest numbered "Part" there will be our current discussion.
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Post by WinterDreamer on Dec 31, 2003 15:49:46 GMT -5
It's possible you're right, WinterDreamer. It's certainly a possible connection, symbolically. I would just want it made more explicit in the current series before I'd accept that equivalence as expressed, not merely possible/implicit. Come to the Main board sometimes, WinterDreamer and other review posters, and join the confab there. If you've forgotten, the "Forum Jump" box, bottom right, will take you to the Main board, and the highest numbered "Part" there will be our current discussion. Thanks for the invitation, Nan. I do visit the Main board, but often just lurk a bit because I've missed the thrust of whatever discussion is going on at the time, and I can't stick around long enough to really figure out what's happening! As for the "Buffy as Cup" thing: actually, I agree with you that it's very unlikely that's the direction they're going. (Unless SMG is due to appear on the show this year--I'm unspoiled and don't know and don't want to know!) My reasons for thinking this way have more to do with a feeling that it is probably just a little too esoteric to deal with on the show. Many fans, the members of this forum being prominent examples, would understand where the symbolism was coming from, but many more would probably just scratch their heads and say "So I thought this Buffy was a girl, but she's actually a cup?? And they drank from her? I don't get it." BtVS and AtS don't generally pander to the lowest common denominator, but I think that this is just too big a stretch, even for ME.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 2, 2004 11:14:17 GMT -5
Thanks for the invitation, Nan. I do visit the Main board, but often just lurk a bit because I've missed the thrust of whatever discussion is going on at the time, and I can't stick around long enough to really figure out what's happening! As for the "Buffy as Cup" thing: actually, I agree with you that it's very unlikely that's the direction they're going. (Unless SMG is due to appear on the show this year--I'm unspoiled and don't know and don't want to know!) My reasons for thinking this way have more to do with a feeling that it is probably just a little too esoteric to deal with on the show. Many fans, the members of this forum being prominent examples, would understand where the symbolism was coming from, but many more would probably just scratch their heads and say "So I thought this Buffy was a girl, but she's actually a cup?? And they drank from her? I don't get it." BtVS and AtS don't generally pander to the lowest common denominator, but I think that this is just too big a stretch, even for ME. Yup, I think we're on the same page about this one, WinterDreamer.
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Post by beccaelizabeth on Jan 5, 2004 2:41:04 GMT -5
I have been thinking, and what I have been thinking about is at just what stage did we start being lied to? We've discussed what if the cup bit was all false. How about the basic assumption that set them looking into prophecy- that the existence of two vampires with a soul messed up the basic shanshu prophecy? I've figured since the moment Spike was re-ensouled that the shanshu works BETTER with two vampires- shanshu doesn't mean become mortal, it means both live and die. No one can figure which side vampire-with-a-soul will be on. So, one lives one dies, one on each side, no more confusion.
What I think really went on in this ep goes back to Sunnydale history 101- The Master tried to open the Hellmouth, and got stuck. The Hellmouth is a permanent portal between this Earth dimension and other really unpleasant places. It was sealed, and opening it required serious power. The Master got it wrong, got stuck halfway, and ended up with very strict limits on how far he could travel.
LA also has it's very own Hellmouth- a permanent portal surrounded by evil beings and affecting the possibilities in the world around it. The evil beings were lawyers, and the Hellmouth is in Wolfram and Hart. The White Room is a permanent portal between dimensions. The W&H building was sited very carefully, position being so important they had to figure how to desecrate some holy ground just to get it exactly right. So maybe the portal exists in that location and they built around it?
Spike died on THE WRONG SIDE of the Hellmouth. When the amulet turned up at Wolfram and Hart it wasn't just retrieved from the rubble of Sunnydale- someone fetched it back from HELL. Pretty good trick right there. Getting Spike back with it- very good trick indeed. On the scale of Angel's return from Hell? Someone wants vampires-with-a-soul on this Earth. I think it is significant that the envelope was delivered to Angel- after all it was after he touched the amulet it spat Spike out again- but I think its also significant WHERE it was sent to him- in the building at Wolfram & Hart, right on a permanent multidimensional portal. If you're going to bring someone back from a hell dimension you need a portal to do it.
Still, when Spike first returned he had strict limits. His geography was wider than The Master, all the way out to the edge of LA, but he was still stuck between. He was described as a ghost, a spirit who sticks around after the death of his body, but it was a lot more than just his soul got brought back- the first things we saw were his body being rebuilt and his demon coming out to play. Every part of Spike was brought back then, just not all the way back. He was left stuck in between worlds. Bringing the Master all the way back to this world ripped the portal wide open and let that demon out to play. Bringing Spike all the way back into this world also ripped that portal wide open, removing the white room that keeps it closed and controlled and leaving a screaming abyss. At that same moment the disruptions started- and Eve lead them to believe its because there are two vampires with a soul.
Oddly I trust very little of what Eve wishes them to believe.
When the disruptions got bad the order went out to 'close the box'- but W&H is a box that can only be closed on the Earth sides. One side was wide open and screaming. It might be coincidence that the people affected included the girl who opened the magic that did it and the guy that found the whole lack of white room. It might not. I reckon what was coincidence was Spike being all corporeal again. The problem was caused by lack of white room, and solved by the white room reappearing and sealing up the box.
Of course this is only logic. Writers might have something entirely different in mind. I just think its obvious that anyone who dislikes Angel has so much reason to keep him and Spike at each others throats that any outside info leading to that is just a tad bit suspect.
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Post by WinterDreamer on Jan 5, 2004 20:27:06 GMT -5
I have been thinking, and what I have been thinking about is at just what stage did we start being lied to? We've discussed what if the cup bit was all false. How about the basic assumption that set them looking into prophecy- that the existence of two vampires with a soul messed up the basic shanshu prophecy? I've figured since the moment Spike was re-ensouled that the shanshu works BETTER with two vampires- shanshu doesn't mean become mortal, it means both live and die. No one can figure which side vampire-with-a-soul will be on. So, one lives one dies, one on each side, no more confusion. What I think really went on in this ep goes back to Sunnydale history 101- The Master tried to open the Hellmouth, and got stuck. The Hellmouth is a permanent portal between this Earth dimension and other really unpleasant places. It was sealed, and opening it required serious power. The Master got it wrong, got stuck halfway, and ended up with very strict limits on how far he could travel. LA also has it's very own Hellmouth- a permanent portal surrounded by evil beings and affecting the possibilities in the world around it. The evil beings were lawyers, and the Hellmouth is in Wolfram and Hart. The White Room is a permanent portal between dimensions. The W&H building was sited very carefully, position being so important they had to figure how to desecrate some holy ground just to get it exactly right. So maybe the portal exists in that location and they built around it? Spike died on THE WRONG SIDE of the Hellmouth. When the amulet turned up at Wolfram and Hart it wasn't just retrieved from the rubble of Sunnydale- someone fetched it back from HELL. Pretty good trick right there. Getting Spike back with it- very good trick indeed. On the scale of Angel's return from Hell? Someone wants vampires-with-a-soul on this Earth. I think it is significant that the envelope was delivered to Angel- after all it was after he touched the amulet it spat Spike out again- but I think its also significant WHERE it was sent to him- in the building at Wolfram & Hart, right on a permanent multidimensional portal. If you're going to bring someone back from a hell dimension you need a portal to do it. Still, when Spike first returned he had strict limits. His geography was wider than The Master, all the way out to the edge of LA, but he was still stuck between. He was described as a ghost, a spirit who sticks around after the death of his body, but it was a lot more than just his soul got brought back- the first things we saw were his body being rebuilt and his demon coming out to play. Every part of Spike was brought back then, just not all the way back. He was left stuck in between worlds. Bringing the Master all the way back to this world ripped the portal wide open and let that demon out to play. Bringing Spike all the way back into this world also ripped that portal wide open, removing the white room that keeps it closed and controlled and leaving a screaming abyss. At that same moment the disruptions started- and Eve lead them to believe its because there are two vampires with a soul. Oddly I trust very little of what Eve wishes them to believe. When the disruptions got bad the order went out to 'close the box'- but W&H is a box that can only be closed on the Earth sides. One side was wide open and screaming. It might be coincidence that the people affected included the girl who opened the magic that did it and the guy that found the whole lack of white room. It might not. I reckon what was coincidence was Spike being all corporeal again. The problem was caused by lack of white room, and solved by the white room reappearing and sealing up the box. Of course this is only logic. Writers might have something entirely different in mind. I just think its obvious that anyone who dislikes Angel has so much reason to keep him and Spike at each others throats that any outside info leading to that is just a tad bit suspect. Wow--I really like a lot of this. I still think that there is more than coincidence involved with the return of Spike's full corporeality occuring at the same time as all the other effects. But it really makes sense for the amulet to have traveled to W&H through dimensions rather than through normal space. And if the White Room is a portal just like the Hellmouth, only "controlled", it all adds up. One implication of this might be that certain aspects of what we've seen are just part of the structure of the "reality" of the Jossverse. For example, the Master didn't get stuck in the hellmouth because "someone" was keeping him there intentionally; it was just part of the "physics" of the Jossverse. Likewise, it could be that Spike was caught between dimensions simply as a consequence of being in the Hellmouth as it was sealing up. He could have been freed intentionally, by someone who understood the rules of the reality and had the power to create a kind of metaphysical eathquake strong enough to do the job; or he could have been freed inadvertently, as a side effect of some activity which had some other purpose (eg. disrupting W&H). Personally, I'm betting that Spike was brought all the way back intentionally by "someone" with a plan. My guess is that someone is EveL and whoever they are working for. Perhaps bringing him back required opening up the White Room, and that was what caused all the other disruptions. I too would not be surprised if most everything that Eve has told the FG has been a lie. I also think that I would be very suspicious of any information coming from any part of W&H, including all the books of prophecy. But I suppose that the deception can't go too far or there wouldn't be time in the entire season to rewrite the canon on which the show is based. Buffy never had these kinds of problems, did she?
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 5, 2004 22:07:30 GMT -5
I just want to say that the analysis of the Hellmouth and the White Room as equivalent structures is seriously cool, and has given me much to think about, which if I had time to think would be wonderful but at this snowbound offspringinfested part of my life is pure torture!
Keep up the conversation, I'm along for the ride!
Julia
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Post by nmcil on Jan 5, 2004 23:59:53 GMT -5
<I too would not be surprised if most everything that Eve has told the FG has been a lie. I also think that I would be very suspicious of any information coming from any part of W&H, including all the books of prophecy.>
I believe that Lilah has already established that W&H, or other entities, alter information between dimensions. Wesley has seen different info from two allegedly indentical book sources. I agree with you that any information from W&H is suspect. The Shanshu prophecy may also be either misinformation, wrongly translated & interpreted, or simply bogus. Angel reiterates in Destiny that the informaiton concerning The Dark Soul is incorrect.
There is one other thing from Buffy that seems peculiar - The First & Caleb imply that their was already a prophecy or known facts about the outcome of The Slayer/Buffy getting the scythe first. Caleb knew that Buffy could cause him great injury or destroy him. I wonder if events have been orchestrated even in Sunnydale. Did Buffy also state that the scythe was forged in unconsecrated ground?
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Post by Laura on Jan 6, 2004 10:00:53 GMT -5
<snip> I believe that Lilah has already established that W&H, or other entities, alter information between dimensions. Wesley has seen different info from two allegedly indentical book sources. I agree with you that any information from W&H is suspect. The Shanshu prophecy may also be either misinformation, wrongly translated & interpreted, or simply bogus. Angel reiterates in Destiny that the informaiton concerning The Dark Soul is incorrect. I don't entirely disagree with you, but I'm not sure it's correct to say that it's "established" that information between dimensions is altered -- whether by W&H or others. We only know of one instance where info in this dimension was altered -- and that was by the Beast and/or its Master -- to eliminate information about the Beast in this dimension.
And for the record, I've never bought the idea that Sahjean "changed" the prophecy. I always thought that storyline was bogus.
Of course, if you throw in the mind-wipes relating to Conner, and the whole creation of Dawn thing, you've got people changing information in this dimension all over the place.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 6, 2004 10:54:30 GMT -5
I have been thinking, and what I have been thinking about is at just what stage did we start being lied to? We've discussed what if the cup bit was all false. How about the basic assumption that set them looking into prophecy- that the existence of two vampires with a soul messed up the basic shanshu prophecy? I've figured since the moment Spike was re-ensouled that the shanshu works BETTER with two vampires- shanshu doesn't mean become mortal, it means both live and die. No one can figure which side vampire-with-a-soul will be on. So, one lives one dies, one on each side, no more confusion. What I think really went on in this ep goes back to Sunnydale history 101- The Master tried to open the Hellmouth, and got stuck. The Hellmouth is a permanent portal between this Earth dimension and other really unpleasant places. It was sealed, and opening it required serious power. The Master got it wrong, got stuck halfway, and ended up with very strict limits on how far he could travel. LA also has it's very own Hellmouth- a permanent portal surrounded by evil beings and affecting the possibilities in the world around it. The evil beings were lawyers, and the Hellmouth is in Wolfram and Hart. The White Room is a permanent portal between dimensions. The W&H building was sited very carefully, position being so important they had to figure how to desecrate some holy ground just to get it exactly right. So maybe the portal exists in that location and they built around it? Spike died on THE WRONG SIDE of the Hellmouth. When the amulet turned up at Wolfram and Hart it wasn't just retrieved from the rubble of Sunnydale- someone fetched it back from HELL. Pretty good trick right there. Getting Spike back with it- very good trick indeed. On the scale of Angel's return from Hell? Someone wants vampires-with-a-soul on this Earth. I think it is significant that the envelope was delivered to Angel- after all it was after he touched the amulet it spat Spike out again- but I think its also significant WHERE it was sent to him- in the building at Wolfram & Hart, right on a permanent multidimensional portal. If you're going to bring someone back from a hell dimension you need a portal to do it. Still, when Spike first returned he had strict limits. His geography was wider than The Master, all the way out to the edge of LA, but he was still stuck between. He was described as a ghost, a spirit who sticks around after the death of his body, but it was a lot more than just his soul got brought back- the first things we saw were his body being rebuilt and his demon coming out to play. Every part of Spike was brought back then, just not all the way back. He was left stuck in between worlds. Bringing the Master all the way back to this world ripped the portal wide open and let that demon out to play. Bringing Spike all the way back into this world also ripped that portal wide open, removing the white room that keeps it closed and controlled and leaving a screaming abyss. At that same moment the disruptions started- and Eve lead them to believe its because there are two vampires with a soul. Oddly I trust very little of what Eve wishes them to believe. When the disruptions got bad the order went out to 'close the box'- but W&H is a box that can only be closed on the Earth sides. One side was wide open and screaming. It might be coincidence that the people affected included the girl who opened the magic that did it and the guy that found the whole lack of white room. It might not. I reckon what was coincidence was Spike being all corporeal again. The problem was caused by lack of white room, and solved by the white room reappearing and sealing up the box. Of course this is only logic. Writers might have something entirely different in mind. I just think its obvious that anyone who dislikes Angel has so much reason to keep him and Spike at each others throats that any outside info leading to that is just a tad bit suspect. Wowser! That's THINKING, Beccaelizabeth! Until I see/hear differently (assuming I ever do), you've certainly convinced me. This makes excellent sense! I do, however, reserve the right to maintain that the Cup *is* the cup, regardless of its contents, until I'm shown conclusively that it's also a fake or fake-out. That, for me, hasn't yet been established, only undercut with doubt thrown at it.
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Post by Rachael on Jan 6, 2004 18:44:54 GMT -5
Wow--I really like a lot of this. I still think that there is more than coincidence involved with the return of Spike's full corporeality occuring at the same time as all the other effects. But it really makes sense for the amulet to have traveled to W&H through dimensions rather than through normal space. And if the White Room is a portal just like the Hellmouth, only "controlled", it all adds up. One implication of this might be that certain aspects of what we've seen are just part of the structure of the "reality" of the Jossverse. For example, the Master didn't get stuck in the hellmouth because "someone" was keeping him there intentionally; it was just part of the "physics" of the Jossverse. Likewise, it could be that Spike was caught between dimensions simply as a consequence of being in the Hellmouth as it was sealing up. He could have been freed intentionally, by someone who understood the rules of the reality and had the power to create a kind of metaphysical eathquake strong enough to do the job; or he could have been freed inadvertently, as a side effect of some activity which had some other purpose (eg. disrupting W&H). Personally, I'm betting that Spike was brought all the way back intentionally by "someone" with a plan. My guess is that someone is EveL and whoever they are working for. Perhaps bringing him back required opening up the White Room, and that was what caused all the other disruptions. I too would not be surprised if most everything that Eve has told the FG has been a lie. I also think that I would be very suspicious of any information coming from any part of W&H, including all the books of prophecy. But I suppose that the deception can't go too far or there wouldn't be time in the entire season to rewrite the canon on which the show is based. Buffy never had these kinds of problems, did she? Actually, that's something sort of interesting. . .on BtVS, pretty much every prophecy that ever was came true on some level. Can we say the same for Angel? It seems to me that the notion of prophesies being false is running rampant through the storylines. When did we start being lied to, indeed. One difference may be that Buffy was surrounded by people she could trust to give her the right information, while on AtS, often the folks with the information are not to be trusted, and thus the information suspect. I'm not prepared to believe anything Eve says, and am fully prepared to believe that all prophesies, right down to Shanshu, are bogus. Can't wait to find out.
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Post by WinterDreamer on Jan 7, 2004 18:10:24 GMT -5
I just want to say that the analysis of the Hellmouth and the White Room as equivalent structures is seriously cool, and has given me much to think about, which if I had time to think would be wonderful but at this snowbound offspringinfested part of my life is pure torture! Keep up the conversation, I'm along for the ride! Julia Another possible connection--When the Master was "stuck" he was confined to the area inside of the Hellmouth. Since Spike could move around LA, but not leave the city limits, could that imply that all of LA is a Hellmouth? Hmmm....
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