Rogue1
N'ubie
Always a Spike Lover
Posts: 9
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Post by Rogue1 on Jan 30, 2004 16:37:18 GMT -5
As always I am amazed at your insight and the succinct way of your straight to the heart of the matter.
The reviews that the both of you do always blow me away. After watching an episode I always anxiously await the reviews to come out so I can confirm what I thought was being done or said, see something I missed before or realize something I completely mis-read or mis-understood in that particular episode.
Please keep up the good work.
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Jan 30, 2004 17:34:39 GMT -5
KMInfinity said: Nan's reply to KM before I realized that I'd destroyed her post: KM, an interesting post! KM, I've just TWICE inadvertently modified your post. The first time, I put it back the way it was and was certain the second time, I was merely quoting it. Instead, I've eliminated it by modification. My deepest apologies. Only on this board can I modify (rather than quote) others' posts, and I seem to do so by mistake MUCH more frequently than I would wish.
If you remember what you said, please repost it (it was a long post!) Hi, I read your post before it was "deleted". Sorry about that. I was going to quote and reply when it was replaced. Sorry you had to got through that Nan. I liked the fact that you were able to go in that direction and have some comments. Please don't be shy (I tend to be). I do have comments on faith and works, especially where redemption (Spike) are concerned. And he believes in revelation (which is a supernatural occurence). See epi Smashed.
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Post by Sue on Jan 30, 2004 17:58:21 GMT -5
Bravo! (Brava? Wish I'd taken Latin, it's not like 5 years of German has left any permanent mark.)
Nan,
I laughed at your compilation of favorite lines--just quote the whole episode!
Regarding the "Hands" motif, I wonder if it will continue to occur through out the rest of the season and in what form.
Points which especially made me sit up and take notice:
"However, it’s interesting that at no time did the First appear to Spike as one of Spike’s victims. Only as the evil aspects of the dead, telling him he was meaningless, helpless, insignificant. What was being emphasized to Spike was his own evil, his own worthlessness. Though his pain and remorse were intense and real, at no time has he made the imaginative jump from his own misery and guilt to the pain of his victims."
Yes, never noticed that at the time and should have. He's always haunted by his victims in fanfic--but not in Buffy. Interesting.
"Finally, it’s not about evidence: it’s about intuition and imaginative leaps."
Someone else noted that Gunn was wrong about it being all about evidence. Dana thought she had the "evidence" of her own memories and was mistaken. Evidence can be manufactured, misleading or misinterpreted. It's a goo place to start, but there's got to be more.
And finally:
"Spike’s been right all along: Wolfram & Hart is destroying Angel and the Fang Gang. That affiliation has lost Angel the trust of Buffy, as head of the Slayers, and of the Council of Watchers."
Way too true.
"But Angel is also right: Spike’s awareness of Spike’s own evil (“three months in a basement,” he called it in “Just Rewards”), however keenly felt, was facile, incomplete, and self-centered.
Great points. And incredibly well-written, as usual.
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Post by KMInfinity on Jan 30, 2004 18:06:31 GMT -5
Oh well, que sera sera... Don't worry Nan, I guess the internet gods thought I was too long winded and esoteric. I used to type posts in Word first, then copy them over, back when I had a bad internet connection. Didn't do that this time. Maybe it was Moloch. Yeah, we'll blame him. If I have time, I'll try to repost the gist of my ideas. Something about "faith" verses "good works" as the path to Heaven.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 30, 2004 18:52:57 GMT -5
Hey Julia, Spike felt the right to stay alive and fighting in the same epi, Sleeper. Buffy revealed to him that something was playing "them". She included Spike. He then asked Buffy to help him (poor Baby). And she said she would, in spite of all the people he killed. How's that for boosting your self-esteem. Not only that, she took him home and put him in her bedroom and finally told him she believed in him. *sigh* Well, he was optimistic enough to ask for help, but I really don't think he was acting as if he were entitled to be around until after LMPTM- at least not to the extent of making decisions for himself, without Buffy's direction and approval. Julia
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Pet
S'cubie
Mmm..Thinkin' of you, Pet!!
Posts: 123
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Post by Pet on Jan 30, 2004 18:57:26 GMT -5
Well, he was optimistic enough to ask for help, but I really don't think he was acting as if he were entitled to be around until after LMPTM- at least not to the extent of making decisions for himself, without Buffy's direction and approval. Julia Well, no argument there--souled, unchipped, untriggered Spike was a much more self-assured "man". He was sexier too!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Jan 30, 2004 19:37:44 GMT -5
Oh well, que sera sera... Don't worry Nan, I guess the internet gods thought I was too long winded and esoteric. I used to type posts in Word first, then copy them over, back when I had a bad internet connection. Didn't do that this time. Maybe it was Moloch. Yeah, we'll blame him. If I have time, I'll try to repost the gist of my ideas. Something about "faith" verses "good works" as the path to Heaven. Sounds about right. And THIS time, I QUOTED! So sorry about that.... This is the only thread I have to be careful of that way and I TRY, but sometimes (alas), I goof. Thanks for being so understanding/un-incensed.
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 30, 2004 19:48:03 GMT -5
I liked this episode and thought it was a brilliant follow up to "Soul Perpose". This season just keeps getting better and better and better! A couple of things I did notice was that there was more Matrix style fighting (the sweeping kick before dana threw spike out the window, the dodging of Andrews bullet). Also to me Spike seemed almost unsouled in the episode, enjoying "egging on" his victim or who he thought was his victim. It was almost like season 2 Spike in my eyes. Especially with the reference to the boxer rebelion slayer "I don't speak chinese". His facial expressions were near enough exactly the same. Roll on 100th Episode!
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Post by KMInfinity on Jan 30, 2004 19:57:43 GMT -5
In fact, I was inspired....or perhaps some might think, possessed, to work the ideas a bit more. Be warned. I’m launching out without the benefit of the connections to the posts that prompted these thoughts, so forgive me. It concerned the problem that it seemed out of character for Spike to think he deserved to suffer. One difference in the characters of Angel and Spike lies in their view of redemption. Whether ME intends it or not, their views nicely parallel the ideas in Christian history over the past few centuries. One great debate in the last 500 years concerned how one reached Heaven. Theologians recognized that there were two major arguments : the “good works” theory and the “justification” theory. Obviously, the good works theory puts a huge emphasis on the idea that one “earns” the right to enter Heaven. The theory of justification says that one is saved by faith alone; good works are irrelevant. In other words, if one has the right attitude (in the Christian faith, belief in Christ) then one will reach Heaven. This synopsis is a bit heavy on the Christian theological terminology in wording, but accurate. www.presenttruthmag.com/aof-noframes/art8.htm It’s complicated a bit* by the idea that true justification inevitably results in a changed character, but let that slide for now. The example I use to explain this: There is nothing Hitler could do in all of eternity to wipe out his evil actions. No matter how much good he does, he’s damned. But, according to a Christian who believes in “justification” if Hitler, with his dying thoughts, repented of his evil and professed his faith, he would be redeemed and enter Heaven. Some Christian theologians even posit that everyone, at the moment of death or at some point thereafter, will be given a chance to “choose” the path of Heaven. Some say it also calls for a specific commitment to Jesus, others suggest in may be more simply a choice for “good.” In this case, one’s life is about learning to recognize the choice between good and evil. This philosophy neatly bypasses the various competing Christian/non-Christian religions. One of the greatest Christian apologists, C.S. Lewis, suggested this might be true. If you think it’s too “easy” to “get away with a life of evil” by just choosing at the last moment and enter Heaven, then you have the old fashioned** view that past crimes deserve punishment. However, many theologians think that the choice for good is actually hard to make when one has a background of evil. Witness Spike’s comments about “it was a party” and Angel’s “evil was art.” So in that view a life of evil does not prepare one to make a choice to enter Heaven, though it could theoretically happen. Even though the Jossverse isn’t Christian, the same ideas resonate, IMO. Angel nicely reflects the old fashioned “good works” theory. One gets into heaven if one does enough good in life, or if the good outweighs the bad. The idea is that your actions are what matters. Spike nicely represents the “justification” angle. You are redeemed by your “state of being.” Spike is “in the moment”, he has “turned a corner” and is now justified, fighting for good, a “hero.” Angel is busy trying to make up for all the evil he’s done, while Spike knows that there’s nothing her can ever do to change what was. Instead, he sees his defining moment as the choice he made to recover his soul. That decision made the difference in who and what he is. IMO, the issue is both more complex and more simple. Angel is wrong in thinking that any amount of good works can “balance” his past evil. Time and again we’ve seen stories in the Jossverse that emphasize that point of view. Yet, somehow it seems right to think that Angel can be redeemed. But if it isn’t through good works, then how? IMO, it’s by choosing, every day, to fight the good fight. It’s not the good works, it’s the soul recognizing the rightness of good action. In Hellbound, when Spike and Angel talk about the fact that they are “gonna fry” they don’t realize it but they are already on the path of justification. Spike wonders why they are bothering to do the right thing, trying to make a difference, if Hell is waiting. Angel responds, “What else are we gonna do?” Well, they both take it for granted that doing good is it’s own reason for being. Thus the danger of being at Wolfram and Hart is that it may cloud Angel’s ability to see the choices of right action. It’s important to see that right choice is not the same as good intentions. Angel may have good intentions to fight evil, yet fall into the classic trap of paving his way to Hell with good intentions because he can’t see that good can’t be achieved using W&H. Someone commented that his approach to dealing with Dana was very close to how the COW dealt with Faith. He knew once that the COW made the wrong choice, yet at W&H he and the FG are perilously close to thinking the end justifies the means, and that thinking will lead to hell. It reminds me of the old Vietnam quote, “In order to save the village we had to destroy it.” Maybe Gunn will next be telling Fred that, "In order to save those people we had to destroy them." *Well, maybe not a bit... **old fashioned here is not a value judgment – it could be correct.... okay, this post is even longer and more esoteric than the last... be nice....
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 30, 2004 20:07:50 GMT -5
Nice Post KMInfinity, however just wanting to quote this part: Angel didn't choose to get his Soul back and Spike only sought to get his so "Buffy could get what she deserves". As you have said however it has shaped both men into who and what they are today and ultimately NOW in my eyes Spike is on the right path. His intentions however at the time were not the same as what they are now.
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Post by KMInfinity on Jan 30, 2004 20:14:53 GMT -5
Angel didn't choose to get his Soul back and Spike only sought to get his so "Buffy could get what she deserves". ...His intentions however at the time were not the same as what they are now. Thanks for the compliment... I'm not quite sure what Spike's intentions were. In the actual BtVS season, it's implied he wants to remove the chip so he can hurt Buffy. That's where the line " deserves" originally came from - I belive that even JM didn't know about the soul restoration because JW wanted the scene to be ambiguous. Since there isn't definitive canon about why Spike went to Africa, I'm choosing to believe he wanted to be able to " do the right thing/be good" so that Buffy would respect him and she would then have the kind of man she " deserves" - one who is all things "good and honorable."
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 30, 2004 20:28:19 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliment... I'm not quite sure what Spike's intentions were. In the actual BtVS season, it's implied he wants to remove the chip so he can hurt Buffy. That's where the line " deserves" originally came from - I belive that even JM didn't know about the soul restoration because JW wanted the scene to be ambiguous. Since there isn't definitive canon about why Spike went to Africa, I'm choosing to believe he wanted to be able to " do the right thing/be good" so that Buffy would respect him and she would then have the kind of man she " deserves" - one who is all things "good and honorable." SPIKE CAN HURT BUFFY WITH THE CHIP IN PLACE See, for proof, "Smashed". OK, now that we got that over: do you know that on more than one major BtVS forum that particular topic is forbidden discussion? Joss says that Spike went for the soul. I, personally, never saw anything but him going for the soul. "In Beneath You" he very specifically says he went after the soul. WHY does this even come up any more? It just distracts from things which are much more interesting. Julia, feeling rather as if she's arguing for the existence of gravity
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Post by Patti - S'cubie Cutie on Jan 30, 2004 20:33:06 GMT -5
Nan, I really enjoyed your review - and you were right, we saw it pretty similarly - and yet managed to write about it differently. In Buffy's words, 'very cool.'
A couple things in your review gave me 'wow' moments..' You reminded us that in the 'joining' of the Scoobies in "Primeval', Buffy was the hands, and here Spike has his hands cut off. I haven't read the other comments on your review yet so forgive me if this is a retread, but it made me think that perhaps we can also say this is symbolic of the fact that Spike was also cut off from Buffy.
Well, that's a stretch probably, especially as Spike's hands have been re-attached, but SMG isn't (as we've all discussed) appearing on Angel. Still, to me it's a fun fanwank..
Nan, EXCELLENT catch - Andrew's hair and clothes did make him look like William. And of course last season we saw him in leather coat, swaggering down the streets of Sunnydale, trying to be the Big Bad. Now, he has grown and is clearly on the 'side' of good - and is modeling after the 'good' side of Spike. (Not that he probably knows what William was like.)
I really enjoyed your review, of an episode I am rating highly.
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Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 30, 2004 20:55:17 GMT -5
I didn't mean it as in he was going to get a soul so he could hurt buffy. As Julia pointed out he could hurt her with the chip in season 6. I just ment that when Spike went to get his soul it was all about and because of Buffy, nothing else, no other reason was apparent and in my eyes there was no other reason. I do however believe NOW as i said in my comment above that he is on the right path. At the time though his intentions were different to what they are now.
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Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 30, 2004 21:02:48 GMT -5
I didn't mean it as in he was going to get a soul so he could hurt buffy. As Julia pointed out he could hurt her with the chip in season 6. I just ment that when Spike went to get his soul it was all about and because of Buffy, nothing else, no other reason was apparent and in my eyes there was no other reason. I do however believe NOW as i said in my comment above that he is on the right path. At the time though his intentions were different to what they are now. Yup, Spike's motivation to get his soul back was all about Buffy, and he says as much in "Beneath You" "Sleeper" and "Get it Done". But as of " Damage" (with hints that this is happening as early as "End of Days" ) he seems to be moving on to what having a soul means for Spike. Julia, suddenly wondering if part of Spike's hesitancy to see Buffy is because he needs to work on that question.
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