|
Post by makd on Jan 31, 2004 18:34:00 GMT -5
Point well taken, that perspective makes sense to me. Just two random comments to add that I forgot to include earlier: 1) I'm glad you invoked Drusilla in your review, Nan. She seems to be a big stop sign in Angel's redemptive road. 2) this is the second time Spike's been de-dustered by someone who has a grievance against him. I wonder whether it is a portent of his shedding it...is it time he did? Hm that also reminds me that along with his smoking habit, the lighter has not made an appearance either. Good point, Sammie. (And while I'm at it, Welcome to S 3. Sit in one of our virtual comfy chairs, post often, and enjoy the most comfy and tolerant comm. on the Net. Interesting that Spike took the duster from a slayer, and a slayer took it back! I keep harping on the damned duster, but it's symbolic of his triumph OVER a slayer, when he was unchipped, unsouled, evil. Now that he's on the other side, souled, I'd like to see him dump the dumpster --- and burn it, as a ritual sacrifice to the new, evolving, and trying harder every day to do good and be good!Spike.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 31, 2004 18:37:46 GMT -5
Well, Spike already could hurt Buffy, even with the chip, so I never thought he was going to Africa so that he could come back and hurt her. I thought that he was, in great conflict, surrendering to her insistence that a soul would make all the difference. Alas, it didn't turn out to be true. ITA. After watching Seeing Red, I was sure that Spike was going to Africa to get de-chipped, but, at the same time, it just didn't make sense! After all, the chip didn't work against her, so, WTF? Then, when his soul was returned, all was clear. Just Joss joshing us around.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 31, 2004 18:40:42 GMT -5
LadyDi, It may have worked out that way, but totally not buying that that was any part of Spike's original motivation. Take the risk of turning into a "broody ponce" being tortured for all the "fun" things he did as a demon--just so he can flick off the Scoobies? Not buying it. Well, think of it this way: In BY, Spike says that he didn't know; Angel didn't tell him. And, much as I love our Spikey, he's not a planner; he's a doer - THEN he plans??? (he's post hoc ergo propter hoc, all the way!) So, in short, I don't think he thought deeply enough - first - about the process of being souled. I think he thought it would just extend the chip so he wouldn't hurt Buffy, and she'd re-think him as equal to Angel, hence, worthy of love.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 31, 2004 18:52:42 GMT -5
First of all, I've just got to take my hat off to Nan for another thought-provoking review. I don't know how you do it every week, but I hope you keep on doing it! I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, and I've come to the conclusion that Buffy may NOT find out about Spike's renewed unlife anytime soon. Here's my resoning: Andrew will probably respect Spike's wishes, and not go out of his way to tell Buffy. He appears to report to Giles, not directly to Buffy, and doesn't seem to be staying in Rome, where Buffy is living. Therefore, even though he might very well accidently let it slip out, Buffy won't be around to hear it. Neither will Willow, Xander or Dawn be around to hear it, so they won't be able to pass the news along to Buffy. I also thought that Spike's claim that he would call Buffy himself was tranparently insincere. He seems to be terrified of facing her, for whatever reason. (The reasons given so far in the show don't seem to be quite sufficient to keep Spike away from her, IMO. But some other posters have come up with a few reasons that make more sense to me, psychlogically. So even if a little fanwanking is required, I can live with it.) The one who is most likely to hear about Spike from Andrew, either from his report or accidentally, is Giles. He is also the person least likely to tell Buffy what he knows. We know that Giles never really trusted Spike, even at the end of S7. Now he'll hear from Andrew that Spike, back from the dead by unknown means, is operating at least partly in concert with Angel, and by extension, with W&H. Giles is unlikely to have changed his opinion that, where Spike is concerned, Buffy's judgement cannot be trusted. Therefore he may feel that the prudent course of action, and the one calculated to give Buffy the least pain, is to keep his knowledge of Spike from the other Scoobies, at least until he has more of an idea of what's going on. Whether by design or not, it seems to me that the writers have left open the possibility of Buffy not finding out about Spike until (unless) it becomes useful--for example, if SMG reconsiders in the next year and agrees to do a guest appearance. If this has already been discussed on the main thread, sorry--I'm way behind there and I WOULD like to hear what anyone else has to say on this subject! Hi, WD Missed your insightful postings. Way too long between new episodes, yeah? Anyway, you wanted feedback: ITA. Just right there with you, Scooter. Peas in the pod. "Hero of the Hellmouth" or no, Giles doesn't trust Angel and he trusts Spike even less. I think Andrew will confide in Giles, but neither of them will pass on the information. Buffy's the last person Giles will tell. IMO Spike is truly terrified that Buffy will reject him, souled hero or no. That B/A kiss he witnessed did it for him. He died, IMO, (1) because he did want to do what ever he could NOT to end the world. (Go back to Becoming II - He likes the world!) (2) The act of existing had become too much for him. (Can we rest now, Buffy?) He was mentally and emotionally ready to die. (3) By his death, Buffy could go on a live a normal life, and, by extension, so could Dawn. If Buffy were to learn that he was alive, she might (1) feel obligated to see him. Spike is proud. He doesn't want/won't accept charity - not even from Buffy. And, it still wouldn't return his love - as he loved her. (2)not want to see him. This would also hurt him deeply. Very painful. Therefore, why should he seek her out? why let her know? He'd just open himself to more pain. He'd rather be in the pain of wondering than the pain of knowing. Spike knew by LMPTM, IMO, that Buffy would never love him as he loved her. By their meeting the day after Touched, talking in the kitchen, from the expression on his face, he knew she'd never return his love. He would be content just to be there with her, "being heroes". I predict that by the end of the season, Spike will find himself and, if the series is renewed, (please PTB) next season he will find a new love. And the new love? will love him back....(I'm taking odds on this...since I am banking that SMG won't be back, that B/A is locked up in the thoughts of JW, DB, and SMG, JM, and the many fans of JM/Spike want Spike to have some happiness and lurve.)
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Jan 31, 2004 19:33:09 GMT -5
"Hero of the Hellmouth" or no, Giles doesn't trust Angel and he trusts Spike even less. I think Andrew will confide in Giles, but neither of them will pass on the information. Buffy's the last person Giles will tell. IMO Spike is truly terrified that Buffy will reject him, souled hero or no. That B/A kiss he witnessed did it for him. He died, IMO, (1) because he did want to do what ever he could NOT to end the world. (Go back to Becoming II - He likes the world!) (2) The act of existing had become too much for him. (Can we rest now, Buffy?) He was mentally and emotionally ready to die. (3) By his death, Buffy could go on a live a normal life, and, by extension, so could Dawn. If Buffy were to learn that he was alive, she might (1) feel obligated to see him. Spike is proud. He doesn't want/won't accept charity - not even from Buffy. And, it still wouldn't return his love - as he loved her. (2)not want to see him. This would also hurt him deeply. Very painful. Therefore, why should he seek her out? why let her know? He'd just open himself to more pain. He'd rather be in the pain of wondering than the pain of knowing. Spike knew by LMPTM, IMO, that Buffy would never love him as he loved her. By their meeting the day after Touched, talking in the kitchen, from the expression on his face, he knew she'd never return his love. He would be content just to be there with her, "being heroes". I predict that by the end of the season, Spike will find himself and, if the series is renewed, (please PTB) next season he will find a new love. And the new love? will love him back....(I'm taking odds on this...since I am banking that SMG won't be back, that B/A is locked up in the thoughts of JW, DB, and SMG, JM, and the many fans of JM/Spike want Spike to have some happiness and lurve.) I'll take that wager. Why on earth would JW put Buffy back with Angel when she could be with "more evolved", "more human" Spike? Or when she could be with a mortal man (one who hasn't broken her heart into tiny pieces)? One aspect of B/S was Buffy relearning how to love and trust in a romantic relationship. Plus, she had a front row seat for Angel's struggle after his return from Hell and Spike's struggle after his return from Africa. Not for nothing did she dub Spike "the strongest warrior we've got." Spike is the man Angel thinks himself to be, and Buffy realizes this. She admires Angel for fighting the good fight. She knows how hard it is for him. But she's through basking. Spike, OTOH, is unsure of a lot of things in his unlife right now. The how, the why of his return - the meaning of it all. He needs to know. It's his problem, not Buffy's, and he's not gonna run off and dump it on her. Goody for him.
|
|
|
Post by makd on Jan 31, 2004 19:37:58 GMT -5
I'll take that wager. Why on earth would JW put Buffy back with Angel when she could be with "more evolved", "more human" Spike? Or when she could be with a mortal man (one who hasn't broken her heart into tiny pieces)? One aspect of B/S was Buffy relearning how to love and trust in a romantic relationship. Plus, she had a front row seat for Angel's struggle after his return from Hell and Spike's struggle after his return from Africa. Not for nothing did she dub Spike "the strongest warrior we've got." Spike is the man Angel thinks himself to be, and Buffy realizes this. She admires Angel for fighting the good fight. She knows how hard it is for him. But she's through basking. Spike, OTOH, is unsure of a lot of things in his unlife right now. The how, the why of his return - the meaning of it all. He needs to know. It's his problem, not Buffy's, and he's not gonna run off and dump it on her. Goody for him. Okay, LadyDi: we've got a horse race agoing! I'm betting that JW will not go with the B/S ship, based on what he's already said in interviews about B/A, including the latest in TVGuide. (HE thought B/A was over, but the Bangels keep hanging on....) Winner gets a cup of virtual coffee, a virtual slice of torte, and a virtual foot massage. ;D (This way, everyone wins!)
|
|
|
Post by Julia, wrought iron-y on Jan 31, 2004 19:39:40 GMT -5
Good point, Sammie. (And while I'm at it, Welcome to S 3. Sit in one of our virtual comfy chairs, post often, and enjoy the most comfy and tolerant comm. on the Net. Interesting that Spike took the duster from a slayer, and a slayer took it back! I keep harping on the damned duster, but it's symbolic of his triumph OVER a slayer, when he was unchipped, unsouled, evil. Now that he's on the other side, souled, I'd like to see him dump the dumpster --- and burn it, as a ritual sacrifice to the new, evolving, and trying harder every day to do good and be good!Spike. We'd all like to see that, I think- but I really don't see the marketing boys at The WB agreeing. Julia, ugh
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Jan 31, 2004 19:41:10 GMT -5
Therefore he may feel that the prudent course of action, and the one calculated to give Buffy the least pain, is to keep his knowledge of Spike from the other Scoobies, at least until he has more of an idea of what's going on. Whether by design or not, it seems to me that the writers have left open the possibility of Buffy not finding out about Spike until (unless) it becomes useful--for example, if SMG reconsiders in the next year and agrees to do a guest appearance. If this has already been discussed on the main thread, sorry--I'm way behind there and I WOULD like to hear what anyone else has to say on this subject! WD-- This seems like a reasonable scenario. And I like it for this reason: I'd like to see ASH do a guest spot where he comes to LA to check out Andrew's report, what's up with Spike and what's up with AI and W & H AND gets to meet the "new Wes." (Except for the flame of my B/S shippiness there are plenty of Buffy alum I'd rather see do guest spots than SMG.)
|
|
|
Post by Linda on Jan 31, 2004 20:06:56 GMT -5
First of all, Thank you 3, Nan, for your wonderful review and especially for articulating Spike's inner journey. I just wanted to let you know how much it made me think about this episode, as well as giving me an excuse to watch it again with your analysis in mind. Cause I needed a better excuse than geeky obsession. Secondly, I think I agree with Tesla (*waves* Hi Tesla, welcome!) that Spike has some kinda thrall, cause I think about him way too much too... Thirdly, Dev pointed out earlier that he thought Spike was showing some season 2 callousness in the beginning. Perhaps this was a deliberate way to show that Spike's association with ersatz!Doyle was not good for him. I mentioned in the main thread once that I thought the one thing that shows that Lindsey is NOT GOOD is the fact that he is not encouraging Spike to reach out to others the way the real Doyle did for Angel. ("Next time you could be nicer" does not constitute encouragement.) Visions are all very well, but Angel was dusting vamps all on his own in season 1. The very real danger was the disconnect from humanity. This is NOT what fake!Doyle is helping Spike with. Fourthly, In Part 108, Julia and Karen helped me to reconcile a little something that bugged me about the episode...Why wasn't Angel FREAKING OUT about the calling of a new Slayer. Andrew's little lecture scene showed that the W&H team was unaware of the Sunnydale Surprise. In which case, WHO DIED!? should have been Angel's first gut-wrenching reaction. After all, onscreen, the timing of Dana's Choosing was kinda vague. Was there any way of being sure when she was called? Regardless, if Angel was operating under the mistaken assumption that the only way someone could be Chosen was the death of the previous Slayer, I don't think the 3rd hand video evidence and sporadic phone calls would provide any meaningful reassurance. But Angel seems tense but relatively calm when he tells Wes that Dana is a Slayer. Julia pointed out that Angel's version of full blown panic was retreat into steely calm (kinda like Buffy). And this theory is entirely in keeping with Angel's stoic (Karen's and my word, not Julia's ) reaction to finding out that he has lost Buffy's trust. So, if I am reading this correctly, Angel's disconnect, especially if he received two such major blows (Buffy might be DEAD? and Buffy DOESN'T TRUST me?) with so little surface reaction is huge. His bitty walnut heart must be hiding somewhere deep. Fifthly, I've been wondering if someone pointed out the Head, Heart thing as applying to Spike and Angel. Dana's repetition (more than twice) that the destruction of these things are fatal to vampires (and others, of course ) pretty much states that BOTH are necessary to continued survival. And, as illustrated throughout the show, Spike needs to work on connecting his actions to head, just as Angel needs to reconnect to his heart. Sixthly, Does Fred's statement that "We've got his hands." indicate that Spike's hands, his power, his actions are perhaps now bound to W&H? Seventhly, I notice that the only time I get to see Spike's character as a "loveable fool" (as JM once described it) is when Drew Goddard is writing. For example, Spike's wrong (again!) hypothesis about whom he was fighting as told to Angel AND that elevator scene in Lineage when he yelled "You'll never take me to Hell, Pavayne!" and then his embarrassed covering to Eve. This is the side of Spike that I kinda miss from the old BtVS. Feel free to dispute this and give examples! Anyway, thanks again, Nan for your review and all the thoughts it has inspired... Linda, who obviously has watched this episode WAY too much
|
|
|
Post by LadyDi on Jan 31, 2004 20:41:58 GMT -5
Okay, LadyDi: we've got a horse race agoing! I'm betting that JW will not go with the B/S ship, based on what he's already said in interviews about B/A, including the latest in TVGuide. (HE thought B/A was over, but the Bangels keep hanging on....) Winner gets a cup of virtual coffee, a virtual slice of torte, and a virtual foot massage. ;D (This way, everyone wins!) Bring it on! ;D I haven't read the TV Guide interview yet, but Spring and I have plans to go JW hunting should he cave to Bangel pressure. Anyone else who'd like to come along is more than welcome. I'm still thinking there's an off-screen B/S reunion sometime in our future. I know we can't discuss spoilers here, but I have hope. Spike wouldn't want Buffy to find out he's back second-hand. Maybe he's afraid to face her, but I don't think that's the only reason he has yet to go off and find her. Besides, now he has a better idea of where she is, rather than just "Europe."
|
|
|
Post by Sue on Jan 31, 2004 20:44:52 GMT -5
Fifthly, I've been wondering if someone pointed out the Head, Heart thing as applying to Spike and Angel. Dana's repetition (more than twice) that the destruction of these things are fatal to vampires (and others, of course ) pretty much states that BOTH are necessary to continued survival. And, as illustrated throughout the show, Spike needs to work on connecting his actions to head, just as Angel needs to reconnect to his heart. Sixthly, Does Fred's statement that "We've got his hands." indicate that Spike's hands, his power, his actions are perhaps now bound to W&H? Weird, but true. I went to rewatch part of the ep to answer your post on the main board about Angel's reaction to the news that there was another slayer and as I rewound I happened to catch Fred's "we've got his hands," and had exactly the same thought!(Also liked your head and heart comment.)
|
|
|
Post by Dev(Rob) on Jan 31, 2004 20:49:16 GMT -5
Linda I totally agree with points 3 and 7! One thing you noted as in your point 4, this had never crossed my mind. I assumed Dana had been called because something had gone wrong but didn't think "Oh crap had buffy died again?". Angel does hide his feelings a lot and your point 4 has given me some stuff to think about before I jump off to bed soon (it's 1:49 am here). One thing i'd like to see if there was a season 6 was the B/S & B/A thing resolved, once and for all . . . The only way I can see this happening however is if one character was to no longer be part of Jossverse
|
|
|
Post by Cal on Jan 31, 2004 21:16:18 GMT -5
Bring it on! ;D I haven't read the TV Guide interview yet, but Spring and I have plans to go JW hunting should he cave to Bangel pressure. Anyone else who'd like to come along is more than welcome. I'm still thinking there's an off-screen B/S reunion sometime in our future. I know we can't discuss spoilers here, but I have hope. Spike wouldn't want Buffy to find out he's back second-hand. Maybe he's afraid to face her, but I don't think that's the only reason he has yet to go off and find her. Besides, now he has a better idea of where she is, rather than just "Europe." LadyDi, I'm with you on this one. ITA with everything that you said above and in your previous post. I would feel really let down if JW went with B/A. It would be taking a backward step IMO. B/S all the way! Cal
|
|
Tesla
Junior S'cubie
the ice is getting thinner
Posts: 11
|
Post by Tesla on Jan 31, 2004 21:26:25 GMT -5
Yes, Angel should have been worried that either Buffy or Faith had been killed, and at this point, Angel is pretty heavily invested in Faith. (resisting punnage there)
What concerns me, from the interviews I read with JW, DB, and JM, that NEITHER of our souled vamps will get the Buffster. Joss especially says that B/A is over, and everybody at Mutant Enemy as been at pains to say that S/B would be a mistake.
So I guess I'll just take Joss' exhortation and write fanfic.
|
|
|
Post by Karen on Feb 1, 2004 0:25:15 GMT -5
Yes, Angel should have been worried that either Buffy or Faith had been killed, and at this point, Angel is pretty heavily invested in Faith. (resisting punnage there) What concerns me, from the interviews I read with JW, DB, and JM, that NEITHER of our souled vamps will get the Buffster. Joss especially says that B/A is over, and everybody at Mutant Enemy as been at pains to say that S/B would be a mistake. So I guess I'll just take Joss' exhortation and write fanfic. Hi Tesla! I think you're right. Neither of our soulboys are going to get the girl - well not Buffy anyway. Joss has to reconcile some of the new slayer mythology he's developed with his comic book "Fray". He has said as much. If he decides to do that on "Angel", one way he could do it is for Buffy to find some way for the slayer line and all the power that goes with it to be broken. If Willow could give all those potentials slayer power, why couldn't it be taken away? Especially since it seems it might be more trouble than it's worth (Dana). That way, she could even get some normality into her life, because it seems to me that she is still on the slayer track. Maybe they'll tie it in to the apocolypse and the Shanshu somehow.
|
|