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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 5, 2003 22:42:37 GMT -5
wait! Laura - don't leave:Splainy, please: the prophecy was manipulated? I hope somebody will do a better job of this because I wasn't really paying attention, but...Skip, the demon that had apparently helped Cordelia on several occasions and took her up to be a higher being, revealed that that the prophecy that specified that the father would kill the son, that led to Wesley abducting infant Connor and all that came of that afterward, was a distortion by Skip to prevent Connor's killing HIM; he further revealed that just about everything Angel has done since coming to LA was engineered to allow Connor to father Jasmine on Cordelia, Jasmine being, apparently, one of the Powers That Be. In essence, Skip's revelation, if believed, indicates that Angel has been manipulated from the get-go. Hence since then, Angel's had very little faith in prophecy. (All the above was in Season 4, repeating on Tuesdays at 11 p.) [/color]
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Post by KMInfinity on Nov 5, 2003 22:44:08 GMT -5
I really enjoyed it too. It had more of a flavor that reminded me of what I'm seeing in Season 2, which I'm liking very much too. I liked seeing Wesley more involved. ditto the gang "getting their hands dirty" I can't want to understand the significance of the comment about the father killing the son, whcih I assume is Connor related... I especially appreciated how Gunn, early in the episode, made the point of why Angel and the FG are in W&H--more "good" done in one month than in a year of Angel Investigations work. And the little dig about Angel feeling blue because he only really wants to rescue the "damsel in distress for the week" reinforced by Spike's comments about Angel being a drama queen... The line that keeps resonating - that one does good for the sake of doing it - not for any reward, but because it's the right thing...I love that. Is that new this season? I don't remember it being a "slogan" in Season 1 or 2 so far. I'm a teacher, in a liberal, progressive private school, and I use a similar line with my middle school students>>the point is to learn, it's not about getting a grade. Ah.....idealism... Yet, when Angel says it, he says it with such dreary melancholy. And the ending, with him wanting the sanshu (sp?) reward. He's really conflicted about it. Side note : Does this hint that Spike and Buffy are more mature and have a more highly developed sense of integrity, since they aren't hung up on the "meaninglessness" of their efforts. Buffy seems to have sorted that out after coming back from the grave, and Spike seems to have always had a sense that individual actions counted (for good or ill). The Brothers were cool...I liked the music too. In fact, the attention to the music has always been a strength of the jossverse...
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 22:49:53 GMT -5
I hope somebody will do a better job of this because I wasn't really paying attention, but...Skip, the demon that had apparently helped Cordelia on several occasions and took her up to be a higher being, revealed that that the prophecy that specified that the father would kill the son, that led to Wesley abducting infant Connor and all that came of that afterward, was a distortion by Skip to prevent Connor's killing HIM; he further revealed that just about everything Angel has done since coming to LA was engineered to allow Connor to father Jasmine on Cordelia, Jasmine being, apparently, one of the Powers That Be. In essence, Skip's revelation, if believed, indicates that Angel has been manipulated from the get-go. Hence since then, Angel's had very little faith in prophecy. (All the above was in Season 4, repeating on Tuesdays at 11 p.) [/color] [/quote] However...The father did kill the son in the end, didn't he? Not in the way one would imagine, but he did. So, in a roundabout way, the prophesy *was* correct. And another need for a fanwank here, maybe, but...if Angel "killing" Connor in order to send him to a "better life" with his adoptive (?) family prevented the whole Jasmine scenario, is she/it not still alive and making machinations to do exactly what she/it did at the end of S4? Shanno
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 22:50:02 GMT -5
I hope somebody will do a better job of this because I wasn't really paying attention, but...Skip, the demon that had apparently helped Cordelia on several occasions and took her up to be a higher being, revealed that that the prophecy that specified that the father would kill the son, that led to Wesley abducting infant Connor and all that came of that afterward, was a distortion by Skip to prevent Connor's killing HIM; he further revealed that just about everything Angel has done since coming to LA was engineered to allow Connor to father Jasmine on Cordelia, Jasmine being, apparently, one of the Powers That Be. In essence, Skip's revelation, if believed, indicates that Angel has been manipulated from the get-go. Hence since then, Angel's had very little faith in prophecy. (All the above was in Season 4, repeating on Tuesdays at 11 p.) [/color] [/quote] Nan - Whoa. So then, what's the TRUTH about the prophecy? and, Shanno - I think you may be right; tonight's slip might just get Wes thinking and researching. I know if I were Wes, I'd be looking for that damned prophecy book and digging, digging, digging, until I hit China or paydirt. Did anyone write EXACTLY what Angel said about the prophecy? And the interaction between Fred and Spike? They are really getting to be friends..."Well, you saved MY life.." She sparked Spike to find out more about the prophecy. And, also, wasn't it interesting that Spike was the catalyst to bring renewed interest to the prophecy? Can't explain it, but I do feel that Wes and Spike will become allies....even though Wes' first loyalty is Angel.
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 22:53:37 GMT -5
I really enjoyed it too. It had more of a flavor that reminded me of what I'm seeing in Season 2, which I'm liking very much too. I liked seeing Wesley more involved. ditto the gang "getting their hands dirty" I can't want to understand the significance of the comment about the father killing the son, whcih I assume is Connor related... I especially appreciated how Gunn, early in the episode, made the point of why Angel and the FG are in W&H--more "good" done in one month than in a year of Angel Investigations work. And the little dig about Angel feeling blue because he only really wants to rescue the "damsel in distress for the week" reinforced by Spike's comments about Angel being a drama queen... The line that keeps resonating - that one does good for the sake of doing it - not for any reward, but because it's the right thing...I love that. Is that new this season? I don't remember it being a "slogan" in Season 1 or 2 so far. I'm a teacher, in a liberal, progressive private school, and I use a similar line with my middle school students>>the point is to learn, it's not about getting a grade. Ah.....idealism... Yet, when Angel says it, he says it with such dreary melancholy. And the ending, with him wanting the sanshu (sp?) reward. He's really conflicted about it. Side note : Does this hint that Spike and Buffy are more mature and have a more highly developed sense of integrity, since they aren't hung up on the "meaninglessness" of their efforts. Buffy seems to have sorted that out after coming back from the grave, and Spike seems to have always had a sense that individual actions counted (for good or ill). The Brothers were cool...I liked the music too. In fact, the attention to the music has always been a strength of the jossverse... ITA, KMInfinity! They are still talking about Just Rewards, supposedly the theme of the 2nd episode --- but we are seeing, over and over again - the importance of our convictions, the doing of the good for itself, not for the rewards of material success or shansu. It's on a loop, like a mobius strip.
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 22:59:57 GMT -5
And the interaction between Fred and Spike? They are really getting to be friends..."Well, you saved MY life.." She sparked Spike to find out more about the prophecy. And, also, wasn't it interesting that Spike was the catalyst to bring renewed interest to the prophecy? Can't explain it, but I do feel that Wes and Spike will become allies....even though Wes' first loyalty is Angel. I think maybe Spike was taken aback by the matter-of-fact way that Fred spoke of his being a champion. Maybe he didn't believe that sacrificing himself on the Hellmouth was enough to put him the the league of champions. After all, he didn't do it for the sake of goodness in and of itself, but for Buffy. In a pinch, though, he did save Fred's life, someone he hardly knew at all, and sacrificed his only known chance at leaving ghosthood behind. Fred's reminding him of that seems to be the point (the way I remember between "shhh!"-ing my kids to be quiet) at which Spike really starts to believe that the Shanshu prophesy might apply to himself.
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Post by Betsy on Nov 5, 2003 23:06:22 GMT -5
I hope somebody will do a better job of this because I wasn't really paying attention, but...Skip, the demon that had apparently helped Cordelia on several occasions and took her up to be a higher being, revealed that that the prophecy that specified that the father would kill the son, that led to Wesley abducting infant Connor and all that came of that afterward, was a distortion by Skip to prevent Connor's killing HIM; he further revealed that just about everything Angel has done since coming to LA was engineered to allow Connor to father Jasmine on Cordelia, Jasmine being, apparently, one of the Powers That Be. In essence, Skip's revelation, if believed, indicates that Angel has been manipulated from the get-go. Hence since then, Angel's had very little faith in prophecy. (All the above was in Season 4, repeating on Tuesdays at 11 p.) [/color] [/quote] I'll make a correction here Nan. The false prophecy of "the father will kill the son" was explained much earlier. Sajhin altered the prophecy. When he first showed up when Connor came back as a teen. Apparently Connor killed Sajhin in his dimension so Sahjin time travelled back to Holtz, brought him forward and had a hand in him kidnapping Connor. Both Holtz and Sajhin was in that episode where Holtz took baby Connor to Quortoth. Sajhin manipulated the prophecy to get Connor away so Connor couldn't kill him. Sajhin pretended to know Angel(us) from the past and acted like he had a grudge against Angel. But Angel couldn't remember any of it. When Angel got rid of Sajhin, that's when the whole fake prophecy came out. It was in Season 3. I'll have to look at the transcripts as I don't remember exactly which episode it was.
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:08:18 GMT -5
I think maybe Spike was taken aback by the matter-of-fact way that Fred spoke of his being a champion. Maybe he didn't believe that sacrificing himself on the Hellmouth was enough to put him the the league of champions. After all, he didn't do it for the sake of goodness in and of itself, but for Buffy. In a pinch, though, he did save Fred's life, someone he hardly knew at all, and sacrificed his only known chance at leaving ghosthood behind. Fred's reminding him of that seems to be the point (the way I remember between "shhh!"-ing my kids to be quiet) at which Spike really starts to believe that the Shanshu prophesy might apply to himself. ITA. He saved the human race at the Hellmouth - for whatever the reason (it was the right thing to do; it was for Buffy; he wanted to do the clean up job properly); he followed this up by saving Fred when he could've corporealized and just taken off. He's a better person than he thinks,but he's insecure, anyway. And I loved it that he figured out the solution through the poetry of it. Remember in season 2 BtVS, when Angelus is talking about killing someone, and he tells Spike that his way (Spike's) "lacks poetry"? What is the poetry of it? Is it related to the art of killing or to the art of saving? William was a bloody awful poet, but a good man. Maybe the ensouling revived a little of the poetic in him?
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Post by Betsy on Nov 5, 2003 23:08:57 GMT -5
I really enjoyed it too. It had more of a flavor that reminded me of what I'm seeing in Season 2, which I'm liking very much too. I liked seeing Wesley more involved. ditto the gang "getting their hands dirty" I can't want to understand the significance of the comment about the father killing the son, whcih I assume is Connor related... I especially appreciated how Gunn, early in the episode, made the point of why Angel and the FG are in W&H--more "good" done in one month than in a year of Angel Investigations work. And the little dig about Angel feeling blue because he only really wants to rescue the "damsel in distress for the week" reinforced by Spike's comments about Angel being a drama queen... The line that keeps resonating - that one does good for the sake of doing it - not for any reward, but because it's the right thing...I love that. Is that new this season? I don't remember it being a "slogan" in Season 1 or 2 so far. I'm a teacher, in a liberal, progressive private school, and I use a similar line with my middle school students>>the point is to learn, it's not about getting a grade. Ah.....idealism... Yet, when Angel says it, he says it with such dreary melancholy. And the ending, with him wanting the sanshu (sp?) reward. He's really conflicted about it. Side note : Does this hint that Spike and Buffy are more mature and have a more highly developed sense of integrity, since they aren't hung up on the "meaninglessness" of their efforts. Buffy seems to have sorted that out after coming back from the grave, and Spike seems to have always had a sense that individual actions counted (for good or ill). The Brothers were cool...I liked the music too. In fact, the attention to the music has always been a strength of the jossverse... The only thing is Angel was doing good in LA before he knew about the Shanshu Prophecy. He didn't know about that until the last episode of Season 1. It carried over into the first episode of Season 2, where he then realized he can't do his job with the expection of the ultimate reward as he then loses sight of his job. At the beginning of the episode they were keeping count of all the good they were doing and how many they were saving. Then Angel killed what he thought was a demon to help a pregnant woman. Who he actually killed was her protector. Then at the end, this dialogue: At Cordy's apartment Angel takes down the whiteboard. Wesley: "Good idea. Start over with a fresh slate." Angel: "Actually, we're starting over with no slate." Wesley: "Of course. We shouldn't be keeping score. We're not running a race - we're doing a job - one soul at a time." Angel: "You guys hold the fort. I've somewhere to be."
Then he goes and visits Faith in Jail.
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:13:25 GMT -5
I'll make a correction here Nan. The false prophecy of "the father will kill the son" was explained much earlier. Sajhin altered the prophecy. When he first showed up when Connor came back as a teen. Apparently Connor killed Sajhin in his dimension so Sahjin time travelled back to Holtz, brought him forward and had a hand in him kidnapping Connor. Both Holtz and Sajhin was in that episode where Holtz took baby Connor to Quortoth. Sajhin manipulated the prophecy to get Connor away so Connor couldn't kill him. Sajhin pretended to know Angel(us) from the past and acted like he had a grudge against Angel. But Angel couldn't remember any of it. When Angel got rid of Sajhin, that's when the whole fake prophecy came out. It was in Season 3. I'll have to look at the transcripts as I don't remember exactly which episode it was. really confused now, sorry. Damn! I hate it when backstories are so complicated I practically need a codex to decipher them. Let me try again: The shansu prophecy discussed in the last episode of season 1 Angel was a false prophecy, because a demony-seer-wicca time traveled and changed the prophecy? Because the prophecy said he'd (the demony-seer) would be killed? Thank the goddess this is just a TV show. If my income tax forms required this depth of information, I'd just give up and live in a hovel so I wouldn't have to deal. serenity now!
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Post by Karen on Nov 5, 2003 23:16:22 GMT -5
Oh, and for the record, I think that Angel's slip of the tongue about "the father will kill the son" is going to be Wesley's cue to do the research that uncovers the truth of the mindwipe and becomes the good excuse for AD's wedding absence. I agree. He'll probably whisper it into one of those cool books that we really need to get for the S'cubie library/Thrall room.
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Post by Karen on Nov 5, 2003 23:20:30 GMT -5
really confused now, sorry. Damn! I hate it when backstories are so complicated I practically need a codex to decipher them. Let me try again: The shansu prophecy discussed in the last episode of season 1 Angel was a false prophecy, because a demony-seer-wicca time traveled and changed the prophecy? Because the prophecy said he'd (the demony-seer) would be killed? Thank the goddess this is just a TV show. If my income tax forms required this depth of information, I'd just give up and live in a hovel so I wouldn't have to deal. serenity now! 2 separate prophesies. One hasn't come to be yet, the other one's meaning was twisted by the demon, so we don't know what it really meant. Angel doesn't believe in the prophesies, because they never seem to be what they seem. ha! if that makes any sense at all
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 23:21:01 GMT -5
I agree. He'll probably whisper it into one of those cool books that we really need to get for the S'cubie library/Thrall room. I want a book like that where all I have to do is tell it what kind of story I want to read... Oh, wait. I forgot...You can do that with the fanfic at allaboutspike.com! Shanno (fascinated with Spike/Angel at the moment)
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 5, 2003 23:23:54 GMT -5
I think maybe Spike was taken aback by the matter-of-fact way that Fred spoke of his being a champion. Maybe he didn't believe that sacrificing himself on the Hellmouth was enough to put him the the league of champions. After all, he didn't do it for the sake of goodness in and of itself, but for Buffy. In a pinch, though, he did save Fred's life, someone he hardly knew at all, and sacrificed his only known chance at leaving ghosthood behind. Fred's reminding him of that seems to be the point (the way I remember between "shhh!"-ing my kids to be quiet) at which Spike really starts to believe that the Shanshu prophesy might apply to himself. I think, to Spike, just standing still and burning isn't particularly heroic. He visualizes heroism in terms of fighting--something active--not something as passive as allowing one's immolation. [/color]
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:24:12 GMT -5
2 separate prophesies. One hasn't come to be yet, the other one's meaning was twisted by the demon, so we don't know what it really meant. Angel doesn't believe in the prophesies, because they never seem to be what they seem. ha! if that makes any sense at all okay...so the prophecy that was twisted was that the souled vampire would father a child then kill the son, save humanity, and shansu, enroute killing the demony-seer-wicca. and the second prophecy was that the vampire with a soul would save humanity and be shansued? or it's not yet known what the real prophecy said?
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