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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 5, 2003 23:26:13 GMT -5
I'll make a correction here Nan. The false prophecy of "the father will kill the son" was explained much earlier. Sajhin altered the prophecy. When he first showed up when Connor came back as a teen. Apparently Connor killed Sajhin in his dimension so Sahjin time travelled back to Holtz, brought him forward and had a hand in him kidnapping Connor. Both Holtz and Sajhin was in that episode where Holtz took baby Connor to Quortoth. Sajhin manipulated the prophecy to get Connor away so Connor couldn't kill him. Sajhin pretended to know Angel(us) from the past and acted like he had a grudge against Angel. But Angel couldn't remember any of it. When Angel got rid of Sajhin, that's when the whole fake prophecy came out. It was in Season 3. I'll have to look at the transcripts as I don't remember exactly which episode it was. I'm sure you're right, Betsy: I was conflating Sajhin (sp?) with Skip. Everybody ignore my explanation, please. It will only confuse you worse. I didn't know there was gonna be a quiz when I watched it and didn't retain many important details. [/color]
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:28:48 GMT -5
I think, to Spike, just standing still and burning isn't particularly heroic. He visualizes heroism in terms of fighting--something active--not something as passive as allowing one's immolation. [/color] [/quote] yes; he gets very frustrated when he can't go fists and fangs. He's more into the doing than the being. I think Buffy was an influence here. I remember in Get it Done, she wanted the old Spike, not the new Spike as her knight. So, of course, he dragged himself back to the HS basement and dug out his armor (his leather duster), and fought a good battle with the demon. After, he commented that every now and then a soul needs a good tussle. So, yeah, he clearly gets frustrated he can't go fists and fangs - like tonight - when he couldn't help team Angel to fight the demon. It seemed to take a lot of his energy to touch the prophecy book - which he dearly wanted to do....
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 5, 2003 23:29:01 GMT -5
really confused now, sorry. Damn! I hate it when backstories are so complicated I practically need a codex to decipher them. Let me try again: The shansu prophecy discussed in the last episode of season 1 Angel was a false prophecy, because a demony-seer-wicca time traveled and changed the prophecy? Because the prophecy said he'd (the demony-seer) would be killed? Thank the goddess this is just a TV show. If my income tax forms required this depth of information, I'd just give up and live in a hovel so I wouldn't have to deal. serenity now! At the risk of confusing things further, NO, it was not the shanshu prophecy called into question but one suggesting the father (Angel) would kill the son (Connor). As far as I can remember, the shanshu prophecy has never had doubt cast upon it except by Angel himself (he simply doesn't believe it). [/color]
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Post by RAKSHA on Nov 5, 2003 23:29:06 GMT -5
Dramatically and thematically, this episode seemed to me to be the tightest we've seen so far. I liked the focus on heroism, on what heroism is for, and the parallels between Angel and Cinco. Notable Elements: 1. Spike as Angel's unappreciated snarky reflection. Spike is feeling disconnected and "useless" - note that for the first time, he's riding with the game and actually tries in a more active way to work with them, working very hard to pick up a stick of wood so he can bang the demon with it, because that's all he can do in his incorporeal state, and figuring out a valuable insight about the demon's achilles heel (the same insight it took considerable research from Fred and Wesley to produce). He also served as a canary-in-a-mine to Wesley for Angel's depressed state. (and what is with Wesley's Iceman routine towards Spike? Spike deserves at least a minimum of respect as the souled hero who sacrificed his life to close the Hellmouth, and as such, yes, consideration of possible Shanshu application, and Wesley was very dismissive, as if Spike was a bratty child pestering the wise professor...) Spike is, for the first time, questioning his own heroism, starting to believe Angel's party line that he wasn't a major player in defeating the First, he thinks he was just a useless power conduit... 2. Gunn's enthusiasm for his new role, in marked contrast to the attitudes of Angel and Wesley, who are both tired and depressed. Gunn seems to be so thrilled to be able to save so many more lives that he has forgotten, or cares less, about the price he paid for ultra-fast track lawyer status. Taking the fast and easy road without putting in the time and hard work is never the best way; and I wonder when Gunn will either start to pay for his choice or be more corrupted by it. 3. I really liked the appearances of the five brothers, their way of fighting. And their recognition of Angel as a fellow hero gave me the warm 'n' fuzzies, big Awww. 4. I don't think that Angel's reference to the Father Killing The Son prophecy, and Wesley's apparent lack of knowledge concerning it, refer only to the past. (this can be discussed in more detail on the Spoiler Board) Details: 1. Yep, I noticed Manners' name on the W&H card that Cinco showed Angel. 2. Did Cinco invite Angel into his apartment? I didn't see that happen. How did Angel get in? [shadow=red,left,300]GAIL [/shadow]
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Post by Betsy on Nov 5, 2003 23:33:02 GMT -5
really confused now, sorry. Damn! I hate it when backstories are so complicated I practically need a codex to decipher them. Let me try again: The shansu prophecy discussed in the last episode of season 1 Angel was a false prophecy, because a demony-seer-wicca time traveled and changed the prophecy? Because the prophecy said he'd (the demony-seer) would be killed? Thank the goddess this is just a TV show. If my income tax forms required this depth of information, I'd just give up and live in a hovel so I wouldn't have to deal. serenity now! The Shanshu Prophecy is a real prophecy. Angel was in the vaults of W&H to get something and the scroll called to Angel so he took it. The "father will kill the son" prophecy is the false prophecy and it came out in the 3rd season. From the episode titled Forgiving: SAHJHAN: Angel. I'm guessing I have you to thank for the whole mortal coil thing.
ANGEL: Yeah. Tell you what, take me to the Quor-toth world, help me find my son -- we'll call it even.
SAHJHAN: Really? You and me, buddy cop summer release? We iron out our wacky differences and bond? Don't think so.
ANGEL: You're takin' me there.
SAHJHAN: Couldn't even if I wanted to.
ANGEL: You're lying.
ANGEL: No, that, I'm telling the truth about. Whole universe could go kaplooie. Bad for me, bad for America
FRED: So what are you lyin' about?
SAHJHAN: Oh, well. I don't like to brag but... read any good prophecies lately?
GUNN: You wrote the prophecies.
SAHJHAN: More a re-write.
FRED: "The father will kill the son."
SAHJHAN: Yeah. I flitted back and forth in time, hanged the one that threatened me, polished some others. (beat) Flitted in a manly way. Just so we're clear. (to Angel) You're not really my enemy. You're in my home and I'm gonna kick your ass but you were never really the point.
ANGEL: (getting it) It was Connor.
SAHJHAN: Boy, can't put one over on you, can you? Oh wait, already did. It's pretty freaky the first time you see your name in a true prophecy, all carved in blood on an official scroll. (to Angel) "The one sired by the vampire with a soul shall grow to manhood and kill SahJhan." Me.
FRED: So you planted false prophecies. That Angel would kill his son... and Wesley believed them.
SAHJHAN: Thank God he had some spine. Holtz was useless. (to Angel) Wanted to raise your kid as his own. I'm living' with a knife over my heart for eleven hundred years and he's into petty revenge. If he'd just killed the thing while it was still in its mother we coulda avoided all of this -- It's like a switch is flipped in Angel. He erupts. Goes VAMP. Charges SahJhan, gonna rip him to pieces.
SahJhan is ready, counters Angel, swings the chair leg, catches Angel across the neck.
Gunn rushes SahJhan, takes a swing. Connects. Buys Angel a moment to recover. SahJhan grabs Gunn, throws him crashing across the table.
Angel and SahJhan trade blows as --
Fred picks up one of the braziers, hurls the hot coals in SahJhan's face. He howls in pain, glares at her.
SAHJHAN (cont'd): Do I look like I need more skin problems?
SahJhan punches or kicks Fred -- it's deflected as Angel hits him hard from the side. Fred goes flying. Angel throws punches, kicks him -- SahJhan catches Angel's leg.
Launches him across the chamber. Gunn gets up, tries to grab SahJhan, but gets kicked in the head. Gunn goes down.
ACROSS THE CHAMBER - ANGEL
Staggers to his feet. He's hurting. And from here on out, it's not so much a fight as a beating. Angel just keeps coming and coming and SahJhan keeps bashing him, finally smashes him onto the table, rag dolls him across the room. Angel doesn't get up.
SahJhan steps over to the busted chair, grabs a STAKE-sized piece, turns back to Angel. Towers over him.
AT THE DOOR - JUSTINE
Rushes in, carrying something we can't quite see. SahJhan hears her enter. Looks. Turns back to Angel.
Fred crawls to Gunn on the floor.
FRED: (re: SahJhan and Angel) He's gonna...
CLOSE - ANGEL
Barely conscious. Realizes he can't save himself. Watches SahJhan raise the stake above him.
SAHJHAN: I hadda put your boy down. Pity, kid had a big future. I mean big. Well we all gotta go sometime.
ANGLE - JUSTINE
We now see what she's carrying. It's a Resikhian urn. A duplicate of the one in the Flashbacks. She opens it. A stream of liquid floats up and out, streams over to SahJhan, swirls around him (CGI).
SAHJHAN: No, no... don't do that!... He tries to finish staking Angel but the liquid covers him, the stake falls to the ground and SahJhan is sucked back into the urn. We HEAR:
SAHJHAN (V.O.): (echo and small) Oh fuh--
Justine replaces its lid.
Gunn and Fred move to Angel. Both men are beat up. They all struggle to their feet. Angel looks over at Justine, the urn in her hands.
JUSTINE: Holtz left it.
ANGEL: (simply) Thanks.
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:34:58 GMT -5
At the risk of confusing things further, NO, it was not the shanshu prophecy called into question but one suggesting the father (Angel) would kill the son (Connor). As far as I can remember, the shanshu prophecy has never had doubt cast upon it except by Angel himself (he simply doesn't believe it). [/color] [/quote] Guys I am sitting here laughing out loud at myself, in total confusion about prophecies. I am feeling a little like the Scoobies, near the end of Season 5, when they found out Ben and Glory were one, and Spike is asking, "Is everyone here very stoned?" I am so confused now, I am just going to finish the giggling and chuckling and get back to discussing the episode. I am also going to amazon.com later tonight and order a hard-back copy of Wheedon's Guide to Prophecies for Dummies.
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:42:39 GMT -5
The Shanshu Prophecy is a real prophecy. Angel was in the vaults of W&H to get something and the scroll called to Angel so he took it. The "father will kill the son" prophecy is the false prophecy and it came out in the 3rd season. [/color][/quote] So then, Betsy: there are two prophecies: (1) a real prophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues, and (2) a doctored phophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues after killing his son. Whew! I hope this is it! I hope I've got it now!
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Post by Betsy on Nov 5, 2003 23:43:53 GMT -5
So then, Betsy: there are two prophecies: (1) a real prophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues, and (2) a doctored phophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues after killing his son. Whew! I hope this is it! I hope I've got it now! By George I think she's got it. If you are watching the 3rd season on the WB, it will all be explained soon.
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 23:45:02 GMT -5
Why would Holland Manners invite the broken-down Numero Cinco to work for W&H as "muscle"?
Part of the W&H (or whoever runs them ultimately) 500-year plan...which they knew would eventually include Angel? Did they expect Numero Cinco would eventually re-inspire Angel? If so, are they stupid? If not...are they stupid?
Or are they...not really evil? Is W&H being used by (whatever) as an evil-magnet so (whatever) could keep an eye on a lot of it all in one place? And did (whatever) decide to try to get Angel to stop expending so much valuable energy fighting against W&H and take it over instead so that he and the FG could do more good in one day at W&H than in a year as AI?
I can tell I'm in serious need of a jolly good fanwanking.
Shanno
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 23:46:37 GMT -5
So then, Betsy: there are two prophecies: (1) a real prophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues, and (2) a doctored phophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues after killing his son. Whew! I hope this is it! I hope I've got it now! 1) real prophesy about an ensouled vampire who gets to shanshu 2) doctored prophecy about an ensouled vampire who kills his son Shanshu in #1. No shanshu in #2. Shanno
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:48:02 GMT -5
By George I think she's got it. If you are watching the 3rd season on the WB, it will all be explained soon. I'VE GOT IT! I'VE GOT IT! I'VE GOT IT! "The rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain.... She said I've got it!"
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Post by makd on Nov 5, 2003 23:49:33 GMT -5
Why would Holland Manners invite the broken-down Numero Cinco to work for W&H as "muscle"? Part of the W&H (or whoever runs them ultimately) 500-year plan...which they knew would eventually include Angel? Did they expect Numero Cinco would eventually re-inspire Angel? If so, are they stupid? If not...are they stupid? Or are they...not really evil? Is W&H being used by (whatever) as an evil-magnet so (whatever) could keep an eye on a lot of it all in one place? And did (whatever) decide to try to get Angel to stop expending so much valuable energy fighting against W&H and take it over instead so that he and the FG could do more good in one day at W&H than in a year as AI? I can tell I'm in serious need of a jolly good fanwanking. Shanno Is it possible that W&H wanted #5 to deliver their mail so as to take him out of the hero business? I am leaving this in; it's just too funny to remove. I MEANT: the champion business. the hero business sounds like he's running a deli.
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Post by Karen on Nov 5, 2003 23:50:07 GMT -5
So then, Betsy: there are two prophecies: (1) a real prophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues, and (2) a doctored phophecy about an ensouled vampire who shansues after killing his son. Whew! I hope this is it! I hope I've got it now! I don't remember anything about the vampire shanshuing in the false prophecy - just that he would kill his son. Am I wrong? Edit: I see Shanno agrees.
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 23:50:34 GMT -5
Is it possible that W&H wanted #5 to deliver their mail so as to take him out of the hero business? Nah. #5 had already taken himself out of the business.
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Post by Shan on Nov 5, 2003 23:51:03 GMT -5
I don't remember anything about the vampire shanshuing in the false prophecy - just that he would kill his son. Am I wrong? Not unless I am, too.
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