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Post by raenstorm on Nov 19, 2003 22:29:02 GMT -5
Well, apparently, he is! I got the impression that whatever he and Eve are up to, the SP don't know about either!
Or maybe I was misinterpreting?
By the way -- I wasn't paying a ton of attention to the opening credits, but I take it Christian Kane was uncredited?
What an awesome episode! They addressed a TON of our comments/observations/hopes -- put some things to rest, and have opened others up for further discussion. Bee-you-tee-ful! I definitely got the impression the SP didn't know a thing which makes me wonder about Eve. Is she actually working for the SP? However, if she isn't... why would they be letting her get away with pretending she does. But, if she does work for them, one would think she'd have to have been working for them for a long time to be in that position. So, how long has this 'thing' with Lindsay been going on? Also, now I suddenly get the look on her face after the "sex under mystical influences" convo with Angel. Wonder if she ran home and told the manly looking tattoed Lindsay about that!
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Post by betsyAB on Nov 19, 2003 22:32:10 GMT -5
Darn- I was hoping to be the first to say that- oh well I guess I will have to settle for seconding your first- Lindsey's back- and they're gonna be sorry Lindsay's back and they're gonna be in trouble Hey Na Hey Na Lindsay's back He's up to no good Chaos gonna be double Hey Na Hey Na Lindsay's back
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Post by raenstorm on Nov 19, 2003 22:32:14 GMT -5
E..L (Is that EVIL?) Whp's that ? What else did I miss in the goddess-damned back story. Sigh. And I've been doing so well with their MOWs. Hey --- if Lindsey can get a hand transplant, can I have the upgrade that Gunn had? You know, so that I can zswoomm the backstory in one glom? I assume she meant... E = Eve and L= Lindsay. Still I'd say it's more like Eve-L
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 22:33:14 GMT -5
I definitely got the impression the SP didn't know a thing which makes me wonder about Eve. Is she actually working for the SP? However, if she isn't... why would they be letting her get away with pretending she does. But, if she does work for them, one would think she'd have to have been working for them for a long time to be in that position. So, how long has this 'thing' with Lindsay been going on? Also, now I suddenly get the look on her face after the "sex under mystical influences" convo with Angel. Wonder if she ran home and told the manly looking tattoed Lindsay about that! Eve--you mean you don't KNOW? When we're depending on you to reveal ALL?
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Post by raenstorm on Nov 19, 2003 22:35:04 GMT -5
Eve--you mean you don't KNOW? When we're depending on you to reveal ALL? You know, it's funny, when I post on the board it's like all of Eve's memories fade almost away and Rae's are the most prevalant. Go figure!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 22:35:10 GMT -5
And who's to say the cup isn't the real cup--that it's the cup that matters, not its contents?
What if Spike has now actually drunk from the Cup of Whatever and Torment--regardless that the liquid in it is Mountain Dew? He still has drunk from the Cup, as required. Events will prove whether the Torment and whatever now ensue.
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Post by Laura on Nov 19, 2003 22:36:58 GMT -5
Hi guys- Tonight's episode reminded me of the Season 3 episode of Angel wherein Fred's parents return to claim her. Fred comes into her own in the episode and finds the strength to claim her portion of the champion's mantle. She effectively "owns" her marginalization by realizing that her past history of being trapped in a demonic dimension has given rise to talents and strengths she never knew she possessed. Like Spike she does not run from her past- she turns a vista of victimhood into a testament of strength.(course she does not have a century of depredation and bloodletting behind her ) Still Spike has abandoned his history of running. Initially he ran from his messy humanity when he accepted Drusilla's vampiric embrace. As a vampire he ran from the strictures of the standard vampiric identity. Finally he is gleefully crafting a new identity that revels in vampiric strength and the dynamism of a moral code that requires wily honesty and sacrifice in varying doses. Angel is still trapped in his characteristic defensive identity. He seeks to justify his suffering and the suffering he caused others by putting his unlife in the service of pursuing the prophecy. He has told Spike that none of it really matters b/c they are doomed but he hungers to have that disproved. Spike could just have easily have told him jauntily "Keep the faith -baby." Ellie -- I'm loving your parallels between Fred and Spike -- each claiming her/his own piece of the "Champion" mantle -- very good!
Spike at least admits to Angel that there is some part of his motivation that wants to take something away from Angel ("Do you really want it? Or do you just want to take something away from me?" "Bit of both.")
Did the fight between Angel and Spike remind anyone else of the classic Batman/Joker fight at the end of the first Batman movie? (Michael Keaton/Jack Nicholson fight.) I mean the whole "Dru sired me, but you made me a monster" "I didn't make you, I just opened the door" (or something like that -- I didn't get it all). It just echoed the Joker saying to Batman "You made me." And Batman's response "I made you -- you made me first."
So it also strikes me that part of Spike's motivation -- taking something away from Angel -- is still retribution for Angel taking Dru away from Spike.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 22:38:45 GMT -5
And so much for the theory that Dru drained William but Angelus sired him (i.e., fed him on his blood). This was a reasonable if fanwanky speculation. It's now canon that he'd never even heard of Angelus for some time after he was turned and enjoyed a kind of bloody honeymoon with Dru before Angelus entered the picture.
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2003 22:39:53 GMT -5
I assume she meant... E = Eve and L= Lindsay. Still I'd say it's more like Eve-L Eve with Lindsay. I NEVER would have guessed it. And she's really playing Fred. Guess Eve knows who really holds the power in that group. Lindsay - I'm so glad to see that boy. The tatoos, the hair, the smile. I wonder how he got his hand back. So many questions.
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Post by Laura on Nov 19, 2003 22:41:33 GMT -5
And who's to say the cup isn't the real cup--that it's the cup that matters, not its contents? What if Spike has now actually drunk from the Cup of Whatever and Torment--regardless that the liquid in it is Mountain Dew? He still has drunk from the Cup, as required. Events will prove whether the Torment and whatever now ensue. I sat here saying "it's the Grail?" That, or it's just ME's way of continuing its shout-outs to the Indiana Jones' movies -- Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade had the Grail in the fictional city of Alexandretta, which was the real city of Petra.
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 22:43:05 GMT -5
I wonder how Opera signifies here?
For instance "opera" is the plural of "opus": a work, a deed, an action or accomplishment. So is it past, half-forgotten works and deeds we're dealing with here?
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Post by betsyAB on Nov 19, 2003 22:44:19 GMT -5
And who's to say the cup isn't the real cup--that it's the cup that matters, not its contents? What if Spike has now actually drunk from the Cup of Whatever and Torment--regardless that the liquid in it is Mountain Dew? He still has drunk from the Cup, as required. Events will prove whether the Torment and whatever now ensue. I thought all that crap about the Cup of Torment was made up to fake out Spike and Angel and was not part of the prophecy at all. Wait until our Wesley returns. He'll figure it out!!
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Post by Nan-S'cubie Mascot on Nov 19, 2003 22:45:45 GMT -5
There are also such things as double-fakes. Eve-L quite evidently think that the cup is a fake...but that doesn't make it so.
Wheels within wheels....
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Post by makd on Nov 19, 2003 22:47:02 GMT -5
And so much for the theory that Dru drained William but Angelus sired him (i.e., fed him on his blood). This was a reasonable if fanwanky speculation. It's now canon that he'd never even heard of Angelus for some time after he was turned and enjoyed a kind of bloody honeymoon with Dru before Angelus entered the picture. Well....Sirk translated the end of the prophecy (but of course, he was a minion for Eve and Lindsey ), as "it ain't over till the fat lady sings". Like all Wagnerian operas. so---Wagnerian opera....Isn't there a legend in one of the Wagnerian operas about a cup/chalice? Was that Parsifal? Laura, I know you are an opera buff --- Help? and Opera --- doesn't that mean, "work" or "task"? If so, isn't TPTB's champion one who does the work, performs the task? am I brain-bubbling here? must take breath. must take breath. must take breath.
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Post by Karen on Nov 19, 2003 22:48:28 GMT -5
I thought all that crap about the Cup of Torment was made up to fake out Spike and Angel and was not part of the prophecy at all. Wait until our Wesley returns. He'll figure it out!! Eve and Lindsay took advantage of Wesley's absence. The gang has to stick together if they're going to beat this thing, whatever that is. So where did the cat and the conduit to the SP go? Do Eve and Lindsay have that much power? What did Gunn say - that he looked down into the "howling abyss"? Gunn seemed to see the real Eve, too. Harmony was channeling something with her comment to Spike about Buffy.
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