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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 12, 2007 6:44:00 GMT -5
Jack needs everyone to believe that he's been taken in by Juliette, to make it all the more convincing to Juliette. Kate is suspicious though. She just can't make sense out of Jack's actions - they don't sound like Jack. She's suspicious. Sayid and Sawyer are buying it for now. I am hoping Juliette is a temporary character. If not, then I suppose they could have a "she turns good" sort of story in mind for her. I found her righteous little speech to Sayid and Sawyer to be WAAAY off the mark, and it convinced me more than ever that she wasn't for real. She was emotionally manipulating them, using a "turning the tables" technique. What she was saying really made no sense at all - they weren't playing "moral police,' they were just playing "police," trying to protect themselves and their people. Instead of addressing what they were REALLY asking about - who are you, what are you doing here, why should we trust you, etc - she accused them of something they weren't doing, then she told them how unqualified they were to do it. It was so deliberate and manipulative . . . it reeked. See, I loved that entire scene. I mean, there's no question she played them by turning the tables on them, deflecting their questions by pushing all of their shame/guilt buttons (athough her look afterward belied the confidence she exhibited during her recitation of their sins with its interesting mix of fear and relief—almost like she couldn't believe she made it through what had just transpired there). But the thing is, both of these guys have dealt with emotional manipulators and liars all their lives—Sayid, in particular, has probably had that exact technique used against him more than once in the past. So I don't think they'd have bought her "who are you to judge?" attack if there wasn't an element of truth in it. And while I agree that they were absolutely all about protecting themselves and their friends when they decided to follow her, I also honestly thought they were being a bit self-righteous in demanding she confess all of her sins to them right at that moment; she wasn't wrong in pointing out that neither of them have come completely clean with their fellow castaways about their own pasts, and they've been there together almost three months now. So, yeah—I actually liked that part a lot. But, obviously, that's just me. Oh, no - I LIKED that part also. I wasn't trying to say I didn't like it, as a scene. I liked it very well. I was evaluating Juliette's sincerity and motives. The scene screamed out, it reeked, of "emotional manipulation by someone who is playing games." Was not evaluating the scene as far as . . . how well-written, entertaining, or realistic it was, etc. I thought it was a great scene. I liked it very well.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 12, 2007 6:48:53 GMT -5
Not only is she a plant, but Jack KNOWS it. He is playing her. I'm sure of it. He's got something going on in that head. And I totally completely hope you are right that this is what it is! He is playing her, he is playing her, he is playing her. What else explains how easily he - Jack, careful, smart, stubborn-as-mule, suspicious, the last to give up Jack - fell for her manipulations? When he KNEW, from Ben, that she and her resemblance to his ex, and her attempts to gain his trust and sympathy, were deliberate, etc? When prior to the surgery, he wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth? Jack just plain isn't that easily manipulated. He is playing her. If he isn't, then this storyline, which has got my attention again, will constitute the biggest disappointment I've had in the show yet - because - IMO, of course - the show will fall down mightly in character consistency, and my respect for, and interest in, the "new Jack," will plummet wildly! (But I will still like his bod - yes, I am that shallow. )
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 12, 2007 6:55:45 GMT -5
Benry takes Juliette to see Mikhail. Ah! That's how they do the "all knowing" act. Just watch the news, get the flight manifest, get background info on all of them. Not magical, just technology and amazingly good research skills.Not to rain on the logic parade or anything, but what research bore the info regarding Sawyer killing that guy the day before the plane crashed? Did they Google "vengeful con men who got duped?" I wondered about that, too. And my fanwank was this: For some reason, Sawyer did become an actual suspect, and this was written down somewhere . . . police files, maybe even a press story. The Others have this info, and Juliette is taking a shot here, that he really did it.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 12, 2007 7:00:40 GMT -5
The thing about Juliet's character is that she is so likeable and sincere in her flashbacks. She is truly concerned about her sister. She is also very beautiful. I think she has a true scientist's curiosity and it was the reason she was intrigued and took the weirdo job (hi Gail!) and sucked down the Kool-Aid juice with the tranquilizer in it so quickly. I also think that Ben is manipulating her and has been from the beginning, especially where it concerns 'helping' the women to carry to term and blaming the island for it not happening. I think that they are experimenting on the babies in the womb and had been using Juliet to help bring them to term, but it hasn't been working. I think Juliet is playing both ends against the middle, and is going to suffer for it, unless she turns coat and joins with the Losties. Right now, I don't see any reason why she would do that. She doesn't give off any vibes (IMO) of being attracted to Jack, and he doesn't seem attracted to her either. I could be missing something there, tho. She knows too much about what is going on on the island, and there is no way The Others would let her stay with our Losties if they thought she was going to turn on them. Are the cameras on the island still working? If they are, then they are watching her every move. If she is thinking of turning to the good side, she'll have to be very careful about how she does it. A bunch of excellent points. We still have a large disconnect between the Juliet who arrived on the island, who wore her heart on her sleeve and worked so hard to help her sister, and the person we see now, coolly lying her ass off and playing people like they're so many pawns. The thing about the cameras is also definitely good to keep in mind; she and/or Jack could be doing a very delicate dance indeed in order to fool whoever might be watching them. This would require Jack to have started truly, wholly trusting Juliette. This is the part I cannot fathom. I probably didn't mention this yet, but I think he is playing her. But seriously, I just really can't . . . I can't reconcile the "Jack before he started acting like he trusted her," to the one who wouldn't eat Juliette's food (i.e., the Jack that seemed exactly like the Jack we knew up to this point, the Jack I liked for his fierce loyalty and smarts and honesty) . . . with the . . . practically starry-eyed foolish Jack we see now . . . except by believing he's faking.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2007 7:15:50 GMT -5
And it could explain why he was so pissed when Kate and the posse showed up to save him - he was working his own angle. Also - Locke could be doing the same thing by staying with the Others. Locke - I don't know. Possibly. But Locke, for all his tough guy posturing, is much, much more vulnerable than Jack. Very true about the more vulnerable.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2007 7:18:31 GMT -5
See, I loved that entire scene. I mean, there's no question she played them by turning the tables on them, deflecting their questions by pushing all of their shame/guilt buttons (athough her look afterward belied the confidence she exhibited during her recitation of their sins with its interesting mix of fear and relief—almost like she couldn't believe she made it through what had just transpired there). But the thing is, both of these guys have dealt with emotional manipulators and liars all their lives—Sayid, in particular, has probably had that exact technique used against him more than once in the past. So I don't think they'd have bought her "who are you to judge?" attack if there wasn't an element of truth in it. And while I agree that they were absolutely all about protecting themselves and their friends when they decided to follow her, I also honestly thought they were being a bit self-righteous in demanding she confess all of her sins to them right at that moment; she wasn't wrong in pointing out that neither of them have come completely clean with their fellow castaways about their own pasts, and they've been there together almost three months now. So, yeah—I actually liked that part a lot. But, obviously, that's just me. It was a great scene, and very well acted. It was manipulative, but it had a grain of truth in it, so it had the desired effect on Sayid and Sawyer, and she was able to carry on with her con. Poor Claire. She's been put through a lot. **nods** And I think it got to Sawyer more than to Sayid. 'Cuz Sayid seemed to be . . . . watching her, analyzing her, more.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2007 7:19:49 GMT -5
The thing about Juliet's character is that she is so likeable and sincere in her flashbacks. She is truly concerned about her sister. She is also very beautiful. I think she has a true scientist's curiosity and it was the reason she was intrigued and took the weirdo job (hi Gail!) and sucked down the Kool-Aid juice with the tranquilizer in it so quickly. I also think that Ben is manipulating her and has been from the beginning, especially where it concerns 'helping' the women to carry to term and blaming the island for it not happening. I think that they are experimenting on the babies in the womb and had been using Juliet to help bring them to term, but it hasn't been working. I think Juliet is playing both ends against the middle, and is going to suffer for it, unless she turns coat and joins with the Losties. Right now, I don't see any reason why she would do that. She doesn't give off any vibes (IMO) of being attracted to Jack, and he doesn't seem attracted to her either. I could be missing something there, tho. She knows too much about what is going on on the island, and there is no way The Others would let her stay with our Losties if they thought she was going to turn on them. Are the cameras on the island still working? If they are, then they are watching her every move. If she is thinking of turning to the good side, she'll have to be very careful about how she does it. A bunch of excellent points. We still have a large disconnect between the Juliet who arrived on the island, who wore her heart on her sleeve and worked so hard to help her sister, and the person we see now, coolly lying her ass off and playing people like they're so many pawns. The thing about the cameras is also definitely good to keep in mind; she and/or Jack could be doing a very delicate dance indeed in order to fool whoever might be watching them. Excellent point about the cameras.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2007 7:25:35 GMT -5
Benry takes Juliette to see Mikhail. Ah! That's how they do the "all knowing" act. Just watch the news, get the flight manifest, get background info on all of them. Not magical, just technology and amazingly good research skills.Not to rain on the logic parade or anything, but what research bore the info regarding Sawyer killing that guy the day before the plane crashed? Did they Google "vengeful con men who got duped?" **snicker** Um, but no. I didn't mean they were doing it all thru the power of google-fu. We know they have operatives/minions/people working out in the world, not just on the Island. (The guy spying on Juliette's sister, and the people out there hiring and recruiting and so on.) So, they told the outside folks about the crash and had them investigate the people on it - go all detective on them. I mean, this was before the most recent magnetic pulse thingy that screwed up the radar and communications and stuff, so they were still able to talk to the rest of the world and use the sub to go back and forth and so on. And I don't think they'd limit their detecting to just the official and legal methods.
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Post by Lola m on Apr 12, 2007 7:27:47 GMT -5
He's got something going on in that head. And I totally completely hope you are right that this is what it is! He is playing her, he is playing her, he is playing her. What else explains how easily he - Jack, careful, smart, stubborn-as-mule, suspicious, the last to give up Jack - fell for her manipulations? When he KNEW, from Ben, that she and her resemblance to his ex, and her attempts to gain his trust and sympathy, were deliberate, etc? When prior to the surgery, he wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth? Jack just plain isn't that easily manipulated. He is playing her. If he isn't, then this storyline, which has got my attention again, will constitute the biggest disappointment I've had in the show yet - because - IMO, of course - the show will fall down mightly in character consistency, and my respect for, and interest in, the "new Jack," will plummet wildly! (But I will still like his bod - yes, I am that shallow. ) **snicker** Um, yeah. You? Shallow? Color me surprised. Your assessment of Jack's personality and so on are very true, so I definitely like this concept that Jack is playing her.
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Post by Sara on Apr 12, 2007 8:28:55 GMT -5
Oh, no - I LIKED that part also. I wasn't trying to say I didn't like it, as a scene. I liked it very well. I was evaluating Juliette's sincerity and motives. The scene screamed out, it reeked, of "emotional manipulation by someone who is playing games." Was not evaluating the scene as far as . . . how well-written, entertaining, or realistic it was, etc. I thought it was a great scene. I liked it very well. Sorry for my misunderstanding you; that's what I get for staying up too late to post.
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Post by SpringSummers on Apr 12, 2007 9:05:16 GMT -5
Oh, no - I LIKED that part also. I wasn't trying to say I didn't like it, as a scene. I liked it very well. I was evaluating Juliette's sincerity and motives. The scene screamed out, it reeked, of "emotional manipulation by someone who is playing games." Was not evaluating the scene as far as . . . how well-written, entertaining, or realistic it was, etc. I thought it was a great scene. I liked it very well. Sorry for my misunderstanding you; that's what I get for staying up too late to post. No problem . . . wanted to add . . . what I liked most about the scene was the way it suggested how deeply guilty both Sawyer and Sayid feel. This is the reason that those two - who are such tough guys, and who plainly had every intention of backing Juliette into a corner - were so easily manipulated by her. The guilt buttons exist - I liked how plainly, yet subtly, we could see that, in the fact that Juliette pushed those and got exactly the response she needed: They backed off. (For now.) The actors involved are all playing the whole thing very well.
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Post by Sara on Apr 12, 2007 9:52:10 GMT -5
A couple of things pointed out over on lost.cubit.net: The name of the airport Juliet was taken to was Herarat Aviation: Herarat is an anagram of Earhart—and we all know what Amelia Earhart is famous for. In fact, one poster speculated that perhaps Adam and Eve, the bodies Jack and Kate found the caves, are Amelia and her navigator Fred Noonan. The mark on the tree Juliet uses as a signpost to the stash of medicine is remarkably similar to the one branded onto her back. Some of the books in Ben's office include (and here I'm quoting the site verbatim): " Assassins by Tim F. LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins, which is part of the Left Behind (familiar?) series about the end times. Pop Goes the Weasel by James Patterson, a crime thriller. The Royals by Kitty Kelley, an examination of the British Royal Family. Stitches in Time by Barbara Michaels, about magical quilts and the good and bad powers they possess. Women Who Run With Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, about the myths of Wild Women and a call to the awakening of the Wild Woman in modern women." I also noticed, while looking at the freeze frame of Ben and his books, that he has lots of framed butterflies on display; perhaps there's a copy of The Collector by John Fowles on one of the shelves as well? And it appears the prop department screwed up bigtime: the report Ben hands Juliet, ostensibly about her sister, is in fact the chart of a 187lb man with heart problems. So either someone on the production staff made a huge mistake, or we in fact have proof that Ben lied about Rachel's cancer and relied on Juliet's being too upset about the patient she just lost to really scrutinize the chart closely.
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Post by Squeemonster on Apr 12, 2007 12:12:19 GMT -5
He's got something going on in that head. And I totally completely hope you are right that this is what it is! He is playing her, he is playing her, he is playing her. What else explains how easily he - Jack, careful, smart, stubborn-as-mule, suspicious, the last to give up Jack - fell for her manipulations? When he KNEW, from Ben, that she and her resemblance to his ex, and her attempts to gain his trust and sympathy, were deliberate, etc? When prior to the surgery, he wouldn't believe a word out of her mouth? Jack just plain isn't that easily manipulated. He is playing her. If he isn't, then this storyline, which has got my attention again, will constitute the biggest disappointment I've had in the show yet - because - IMO, of course - the show will fall down mightly in character consistency, and my respect for, and interest in, the "new Jack," will plummet wildly! (But I will still like his bod - yes, I am that shallow. ) You? Shallow?! This totally new piece of information has completely changed my view of the world. I like what you're saying about Jack playing her, and I agree. I also agree that if Jack really is trusting her, and if there is no other currently-unknown-to-us motivation for his actions, then that is bad character-writing. That would not be the Jack that we've known over the course of the show. Then again, maybe we've never really known Jack at all . . . . *cue creepy,foreboding music* And Spring? Stay away from Jack.
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Post by Anne, Old S'cubie Cat on Apr 12, 2007 14:05:42 GMT -5
A couple of things pointed out over on lost.cubit.net: The name of the airport Juliet was taken to was Herarat Aviation: Herarat is an anagram of Earhart—and we all know what Amelia Earhart is famous for. In fact, one poster speculated that perhaps Adam and Eve, the bodies Jack and Kate found the caves, are Amelia and her navigator Fred Noonan. The mark on the tree Juliet uses as a signpost to the stash of medicine is remarkably similar to the one branded onto her back. Some of the books in Ben's office include (and here I'm quoting the site verbatim): " Assassins by Tim F. LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins, which is part of the Left Behind (familiar?) series about the end times. Pop Goes the Weasel by James Patterson, a crime thriller. The Royals by Kitty Kelley, an examination of the British Royal Family. Stitches in Time by Barbara Michaels, about magical quilts and the good and bad powers they possess. Women Who Run With Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, about the myths of Wild Women and a call to the awakening of the Wild Woman in modern women." I also noticed, while looking at the freeze frame of Ben and his books, that he has lots of framed butterflies on display; perhaps there's a copy of The Collector by John Fowles on one of the shelves as well? And it appears the prop department screwed up bigtime: the report Ben hands Juliet, ostensibly about her sister, is in fact the chart of a 187lb man with heart problems. So either someone on the production staff made a huge mistake, or we in fact have proof that Ben lied about Rachel's cancer and relied on Juliet's being too upset about the patient she just lost to really scrutinize the chart closely. I haven't watched this episode yet. I have, however, read Stitches in Time. As I recall, and according to my quick scan of my copy, it's not about "magical quilts"; it's about vengeance, beginning with a slave seamstress who puts her hatred and frustration into her sewing. The results, several generations later, are not of the good - ghosts and evil spirits, mostly, focusing around an old quilt. It's also, as many of Barbara Michaels-Mertz-Elizabeth Peters' works are, about female empowerment. I don't know what this has to do with Lost, but I'll let you know after I've viewed the episode.
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Post by Sara on Apr 12, 2007 14:09:41 GMT -5
A couple of things pointed out over on lost.cubit.net: The name of the airport Juliet was taken to was Herarat Aviation: Herarat is an anagram of Earhart—and we all know what Amelia Earhart is famous for. In fact, one poster speculated that perhaps Adam and Eve, the bodies Jack and Kate found the caves, are Amelia and her navigator Fred Noonan. The mark on the tree Juliet uses as a signpost to the stash of medicine is remarkably similar to the one branded onto her back. Some of the books in Ben's office include (and here I'm quoting the site verbatim): " Assassins by Tim F. LaHaye & Jerry B. Jenkins, which is part of the Left Behind (familiar?) series about the end times. Pop Goes the Weasel by James Patterson, a crime thriller. The Royals by Kitty Kelley, an examination of the British Royal Family. Stitches in Time by Barbara Michaels, about magical quilts and the good and bad powers they possess. Women Who Run With Wolves by Clarissa Pinkola Estes, about the myths of Wild Women and a call to the awakening of the Wild Woman in modern women." I also noticed, while looking at the freeze frame of Ben and his books, that he has lots of framed butterflies on display; perhaps there's a copy of The Collector by John Fowles on one of the shelves as well? And it appears the prop department screwed up bigtime: the report Ben hands Juliet, ostensibly about her sister, is in fact the chart of a 187lb man with heart problems. So either someone on the production staff made a huge mistake, or we in fact have proof that Ben lied about Rachel's cancer and relied on Juliet's being too upset about the patient she just lost to really scrutinize the chart closely. I haven't watched this episode yet. I have, however, read Stitches in Time. As I recall, and according to my quick scan of my copy, it's not about "magical quilts"; it's about vengeance, beginning with a slave seamstress who puts her hatred and frustration into her sewing. The results, several generations later, are not of the good - ghosts and evil spirits, mostly, focusing around an old quilt. It's also, as many of Barbara Michaels-Mertz-Elizabeth Peters' works are, about female empowerment. I don't know what this has to do with Lost, but I'll let you know after I've viewed the episode. Very interesting. So it would appear that most of the books visible on the shelves have something to do with female empowerment, even though the episode itself implied Juliet is still under Ben's thumb. Maybe it's a hint to the viewers? (she said, eagerly grasping at this new straw)
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